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[Poll]

Will the American Empire collapse?


America is and will remain strong for 100+ years
  18% (8)
America is declining in power, collapse in 75 years
  6% (3)
Collapse in 50 years
  13% (6)
Collapse in 25 years
  9% (4)
Collapse in 15 years
  6% (3)
Collapse in 10 years
  11% (5)
The collapse has already happened
  23% (10)
It's hard to say
  9% (4)


Total Votes : 43
(last vote on : 1/29/2014 5:02:40 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/18/2014 3:51:57 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
China is rapidly building a middle class, which the Soviets never did...

Are you sure? The lower levels of party officials were pretty well established as a defacto bourgeousie long before the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Well, there was even a bourgeoisie in the reign of the Tsar, so I will concede that but wasn't the Soviet overwhelmingly a proletariat of workers and farmers, or am I victim to Western propaganda?

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/18/2014 3:52:04 PM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline 		Says who? Just because we want reasonable gun legislature does not mean we don't own weapons. Many of us do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

One good thing about a collapse, ...leftists don't like guns.


(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/19/2014 9:10:14 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
China is rapidly building a middle class, which the Soviets never did...

Are you sure? The lower levels of party officials were pretty well established as a defacto bourgeousie long before the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Well, there was even a bourgeoisie in the reign of the Tsar, so I will concede that but wasn't the Soviet overwhelmingly a proletariat of workers and farmers, or am I victim to Western propaganda?

The soviet ceased to be a worker's utopia about three years into its existence and switched to an autocracy that used Marxism as an excuse for authoritarianism.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/19/2014 11:54:51 AM   
Apocalypso


Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/20/2009
Status: offline 		"Collapse" is too strong a word. The only way the US empire would collapse is military defeat and occupation of the mainland or a civil war. The former won't happen. The latter is unlikely.

What you'll see instead, judging by history, is a gradual decline in US diplomatic and military power, until it's no longer an empire in any meaningful sense. Even that doesn't mean the remnants of empire will disappear entirely; Britain still owns a handful of overseas territories left over from the empire.

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/19/2014 1:31:51 PM   
eulero83


Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
China is rapidly building a middle class, which the Soviets never did...

Are you sure? The lower levels of party officials were pretty well established as a defacto bourgeousie long before the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Well, there was even a bourgeoisie in the reign of the Tsar, so I will concede that but wasn't the Soviet overwhelmingly a proletariat of workers and farmers, or am I victim to Western propaganda?


only in theory and probably, russia switched from an almost feudal system to a "political aristocracy" everything was state's property and was assigned in use to the people, so being in the political class meant administrate those richness and being the real owner when assigning them to yourself or trading the use with other officials.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/19/2014 2:42:30 PM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

"Collapse" is too strong a word. The only way the US empire would collapse is military defeat and occupation of the mainland or a civil war.

There's other ways for an Empire to collapse. Star Wars was not a documentary.
(The bankruptcy model that brought down the British empire looks a lot more likely at this point.)

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/20/2014 4:52:20 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline 		You have to more precisely define your terms...empire and collapse. Some say it is happening yet that would take some serious numbers to assert. Many are coming in but even though poverty may be spreading, many 'empires' survived decades even centuries while that condition persisted.
'
America's economy we know by now, only thrives directly is response to and by new borrowing by the middle class because that's all the money there is...somebody elses. American households are either out of work or paring debt, so stagnation is the horizon for sometime.

Empire as defined by the projection and influence of power, then as long as we have far superior navy, one could argue we still maintain empire. As for influence, that went out the window ith our invasion of Iraq and the subsequent debacle of changing thw power structure vis-a-vis the Sunnis and Shiites.

The economy will hold up so long as the dollar remains the world's reserve currency with stands at 80% as of press time as it were. Our debt still sells out in minutes every time and at historically low rates. So I say we have the 21st century. So America needs to become a big Germany without the level of safety net for the poor and unemployment.


(in reply to Tkman117)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/20/2014 4:55:01 PM   
Dvr22999874


Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		What territories does Britain still own ? I thought she had got rid of them all.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/20/2014 5:00:42 PM   
Dvr22999874


Posts: 2849
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline 		I think the last one was Hong Kong, wasn't it ?

(in reply to Dvr22999874)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/21/2014 4:50:26 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

"Collapse" is too strong a word. The only way the US empire would collapse is military defeat and occupation of the mainland or a civil war.

There's other ways for an Empire to collapse. Star Wars was not a documentary.
(The bankruptcy model that brought down the British empire looks a lot more likely at this point.)


But did the British Empire actually "collapse," though? Britain itself is still a first world country with a comparable standard of living, and their political system still seems relatively stable. The English language is still widely spoken and is the international language of business. While it's no longer a political empire, the financial and cultural influence is still felt throughout the world, including America.

It's been said that America is not an empire, but thinking on that, was the British Empire truly an "empire" in the same sense as the Roman and other ancient Empires in human history? Geographically, it was far-flung all over the planet and extremely problematic in trying to hold and defend, while struggling to maintain a precarious balance of power in Europe itself. The difference with the Romans is that they had control over their own immediate vicinity, whereas the British bypassed the European continent and started their empire-building on other continents, while competing with other European powers (mostly the French and Spanish) over these far-flung territories, leading to various wars and squabbles which only escalated as more up-and-coming powers wanted to grab their share of the spoils, too.

The two World Wars were the culmination of these squabbles, leading to the main imperial powers of Europe cancelling each other out and wasting most of their national power to defend themselves from each other. What might be seen as the American "empire" today is really the remnants of the former European empires which were left in tatters after the World Wars, leaving a geopolitical power vacuum which America took advantage of. In that sense, America's "empire" was already collapsing before we even took control of it. A large part of the justification was also to prevent other powers (such as the Soviet Union) from expanding their empire in the same way.

But now, it seems the global system is such that, national or "imperial" power just isn't as relevant as it used to be. Money is all that seems to matter nowadays, and the "empire" is for sale.





(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/21/2014 5:45:36 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

I think the last one was Hong Kong, wasn't it ?


We still have the Falklands islands, but I think that's about it now.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Dvr22999874)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/21/2014 5:50:07 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		That is a long way from the East India company and the navigation acts, and when nothing traveled upon the waves without at least the tacit approval of the English.

So, still a first worlder, but a greater deal less opulent and eminent.

And we are already there, just not admitting it yet. It is now a matter of how far we will auger in.  But we've pranged the bloody kite.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/21/2014 5:52:01 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/21/2014 6:39:53 AM   
Milesnmiles


Posts: 1349
Joined: 12/28/2013
Status: offline 		China already has enough USA dollars that if they dumped them on the market, the USA would collapse overnight and has for years.

So the good old USA can collapse over night, as demonstrated a couple of years ago, by the near collapse of the economy at the end of Monkeyboy's reign.

The big problem at this time is if the USA collapses, then the whole world's economies would collapse was well and that is why at this point the USA can "print" money.

That is also why the world is looking for ways to disconnect themselves from the US dollar but the trouble is the US is the world's market place and without the the good old USA there would be no place to sell their goods.

So with this in mind, if you look at the world's economy, you see the whole economy is a house of cards propped up by "printing money" and borrowing from the future.

If you just look at just the US, even with the "help" of the rest of the world, almost all of the states are bankrupt and ready to collapse. They use to depend on the federal government to bail them out but it can't anymore because the federal government now trying to bail itself out. So the local governments are on their own and are starting to collapse, which will collapse the USA and then the World.

If you say well that is just the economy, just think what depends on that economy? The world is no longer an agrarian society. What with agribusiness, most people now live in cities that have about a week of food on hand at any one time. So without the economy the cities will no longer be supplied with food and in about a week people will be hungry and will be roaming the streets looking for food.


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/21/2014 6:58:37 AM   
Apocalypso


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Joined: 4/20/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
We still have the Falklands islands, but I think that's about it now.

Gibraltar is another prominent one.

We have fourteen left, but most of them are tiny. In fact, several are just research stations with no permanent residents.

_____________________________

If you're going to quote from the Book of Revelation,
Don't keep calling it the "Book of Revelations",
There's no "s", it's the Book of Revelation,
As revealed to Saint John the Divine.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/21/2014 7:03:47 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		But that is massiv brill.  No need to fight insurrections there.  Whizzo!!!! Good show, chappie.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/21/2014 8:39:22 AM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apocalypso

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
We still have the Falklands islands, but I think that's about it now.

Gibraltar is another prominent one.

We have fourteen left, but most of them are tiny. In fact, several are just research stations with no permanent residents.

The Falklands are just the most obvious that spring to mind, for obvious reasons. Mind you, I should have remembered Gibraltar as wel, as there's aggro there as well.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Apocalypso)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/21/2014 8:53:46 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Typical toffs across the pond, 'ere we is, guv...whinging about our foolish nosedive into oblivion, but you rotters make it all about you and your colonies.

LOL. 

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/21/2014 9:11:11 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

China already has enough USA dollars that if they dumped them on the market, the USA would collapse overnight and has for years.

So the good old USA can collapse over night, as demonstrated a couple of years ago, by the near collapse of the economy at the end of Monkeyboy's reign.

The big problem at this time is if the USA collapses, then the whole world's economies would collapse was well and that is why at this point the USA can "print" money.


Not so. We had this discussion above. China converts its dollars into US Treasuries bills and other investments. They are not sitting with stacks of dollars. Any threat of selling off treasury bills will increase our short term rates. China gains no benefit if the US were to go bankrupt. The only avenue to bankruptcy for us would be Congressional action to stop paying our debt, as far as I know.

(in reply to Milesnmiles)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/21/2014 9:18:39 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Please note that Germany's largest trading partner both times was Britain. So, national issues can drop out the intellect like diarheaa.


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Will the American Empire collapse? - 1/21/2014 9:26:35 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

You have to more precisely define your terms...empire and collapse. Some say it is happening yet that would take some serious numbers to assert. Many are coming in but even though poverty may be spreading, many 'empires' survived decades even centuries while that condition persisted.
'
America's economy we know by now, only thrives directly is response to and by new borrowing by the middle class because that's all the money there is...somebody elses. American households are either out of work or paring debt, so stagnation is the horizon for sometime.

Empire as defined by the projection and influence of power, then as long as we have far superior navy, one could argue we still maintain empire. As for influence, that went out the window ith our invasion of Iraq and the subsequent debacle of changing thw power structure vis-a-vis the Sunnis and Shiites.

The economy will hold up so long as the dollar remains the world's reserve currency with stands at 80% as of press time as it were. Our debt still sells out in minutes every time and at historically low rates. So I say we have the 21st century. So America needs to become a big Germany without the level of safety net for the poor and unemployment.




An admirable post. But I don't understand why we can't strengthen the safety net for the poor and unemployed.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 80
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