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RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/27/2014 6:58:05 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
What I find troubling is the wife's relationship to the gun. If there is a gun in the home, then basic safety dictates that she know how to safely handle it, and whether or not it is present on a long journey.

Going over the Tampa Tribune article the guy keeps it locked in a safe when he's not carrying it.

And that is a good practice, but it doesn't alter the fact that if there are guns in a household, all the responsible adults should at least be able to safely handle the weapon (that doesn't mean use it) in the event of an emergency, and should know if it is even in the car on a road trip. What if her husband was stricken with a sudden illness or something?

My wife is fine with guns (and a damn good shot), but when we reached the point in the relationship where I was leaving her at my place when I left for work in the morning, she got a quick lesson on the shotgun that was kept loaded by the front door. She hates shooting the thing because of the kick, but she damn well knows how it works, where the safety is, and how to unload it.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 81

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 4:51:56 AM

MsMJAY

Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

You may be seeing what I put on the screen but you are only perceiving and understanding it through your own narrow point of view.

The narrow point of view is the one you are seeing the world from.

Name this tune:

They said it was for the black man,
They said it was for the Mexican
And not for the white man
But if you look at the street, it wasn't about Rodney King
It's this fucked-up situation and these fucked-up police
It's about coming up and staying on top
And screaming 187 on a motherfuckin' cop

If one man's rights are violated everyone's are compromised.

This was the point I was originally making. That in allowing cops to do this unchecked for so many years in certain segments of society, it set precedents in place so that now everyone can be victimized. Most of this behavior has now been codified into state and local laws and sanctioned by court cases (Terry v Ohio, Illinois vs Caballes, NY vs Belton). Cops know what these cases are and what they mean. Citizens should know them too. People think that it only happens once in a while but these practices are routine and pretty standard behavior in most Departments. You only hear about it when it goes really bad or if the person is of a high social status, but it is happening all the time.

At: TheHeretic -Sublime can't sing. Now, Brad Paisley? That boy can sang!

< Message edited by MsMJAY -- 1/28/2014 4:59:13 AM >

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 82

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 6:29:46 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

And sometimes this is what "self defense" looks like
http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/UPDATE-Two-Men-Shot-to-Death-by-Homeowner-in-Barboursville-241973841.html

(in reply to MsMJAY)

Post #: 83

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 7:37:47 AM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
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Another responsible gun owner says, "Whoops".

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Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 84

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 8:02:32 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And sometimes this is what "self defense" looks like
http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/UPDATE-Two-Men-Shot-to-Death-by-Homeowner-in-Barboursville-241973841.html

No that was not self defense by anyone's standard that I know of.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 85

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 8:08:57 AM

DominantWoman65

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Joined: 6/27/2013
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That wasn't a responsible gun owner nor was it self defense. That was just cold blooded murder.

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 86

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 8:16:02 AM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
And that is a good practice, but it doesn't alter the fact that if there are guns in a household, all the responsible adults should at least be able to safely handle the weapon (that doesn't mean use it) in the event of an emergency,

Why? The guy got the gun specifically to transport cash related to his work, if the wife is too submissive or fearful to deal with it (which it sounds like) why should she be forced to?

It does bother me that she isn't familiar with how he's keeping the gun and is under the impression that it could potentially be floating around the car somewhere with the kids (but that's a seperate issue).

quote]ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
My wife is fine with guns (and a damn good shot), but when we reached the point in the relationship where I was leaving her at my place when I left for work in the morning, she got a quick lesson on the shotgun that was kept loaded by the front door. She hates shooting the thing because of the kick, but she damn well knows how it works, where the safety is, and how to unload it.

Well if you're going to leave a loaded gun by the door (which also is kind of dangerous in that it's potentially much closer to someone invading your home than it is to you) then she'd better have some basic ability to interact with it. But wouldn't putting it in a gun safe before you left also be a reasonable alternative?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 87

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 8:19:14 AM

GotSteel

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Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

Stand your tool shed!

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 88

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 9:34:19 AM

MsMJAY

Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
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Once you codify a certain behavior in laws and set precedent for that behavior in court cases you end up with a lot of idiots using that law to victimize others. (Its the same for cops, its the same for private citizens). Has anyone else noticed that lately this type of foolishness seems to be happening more and more frequently.

And there are a lot of people who believe that if it had actually been this idiot's shed, that would have made it ok to kill 2 people. Welcome to the world we are creating.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And sometimes this is what "self defense" looks like
http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/UPDATE-Two-Men-Shot-to-Death-by-Homeowner-in-Barboursville-241973841.html

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 89

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 10:20:17 AM

BamaD

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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWoman65

That wasn't a responsible gun owner nor was it self defense. That was just cold blooded murder.

Agreed

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DominantWoman65)

Post #: 90

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 10:23:06 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

Once you codify a certain behavior in laws and set precedent for that behavior in court cases you end up with a lot of idiots using that law to victimize others. (Its the same for cops, its the same for private citizens). Has anyone else noticed that lately this type of foolishness seems to be happening more and more frequently.

And there are a lot of people who believe that if it had actually been this idiot's shed, that would have made it ok to kill 2 people. Welcome to the world we are creating.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And sometimes this is what "self defense" looks like
http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/UPDATE-Two-Men-Shot-to-Death-by-Homeowner-in-Barboursville-241973841.html

Since he ignored laws as they stand he would have done it anyway.
There is no law that justifies this.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MsMJAY)

Post #: 91

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 10:26:22 AM

MsMJAY

Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
Status: offline

If it had actually been his shed, would it have then been legally justified?

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 92

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 10:33:13 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY

If it had actually been his shed, would it have then been legally justified?

He would have had to order them to leave, justification would depend on their reaction.
Even under castle law you couldn't do this. So that would be no.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MsMJAY)

Post #: 93

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 11:16:08 AM

truckinslave

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Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline

How on earth could anyone confuse that with self defense?

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 94

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 11:18:26 AM

truckinslave

Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
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quote:

Once you codify a certain behavior in laws and set precedent for that behavior in court cases you end up with a lot of idiots using that law to victimize others.

The shooter in the Barboursville incident relied upon neither law nor precedent.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to MsMJAY)

Post #: 95

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 11:20:21 AM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWoman65
That wasn't a responsible gun owner nor was it self defense. That was just cold blooded murder.

Actually, until he's convicted in court by his peers he's STILL an 'honest and law abiding citizen'. The mere nanosecond before he fired the first round, he was an 'honest and law abiding citizen'. After the two men were dead on the ground, shot in the backs without warning, the shooter was 'an honest and law abiding citizen'. In fact the only reason the guy had a gun in the first place was because someone somewhere thought he was responsible with a firearm. There are no laws I'm aware of that allow routine checks on someone's property to see if they are being responsible with their firearms.

The guy used the firearm in the belief of self defense. Unfortunately for him, his misunderstanding of 'self defense' will place him in prison. He could have called the police, keeping the firearm on his person should they try to attack him (that would be self defense).

Society assumed incorrectly that he was responsible with a firearm. Society does that through the laws of the land. West Virginia's laws, for better or worst, allowed that to happen and so must also deal with the consequences. It really is a very tragic set of events all around for all three individuals.

(in reply to DominantWoman65)

Post #: 96

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 11:22:54 AM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWoman65
That wasn't a responsible gun owner nor was it self defense. That was just cold blooded murder.

Actually, until he's convicted in court by his peers he's STILL an 'honest and law abiding citizen'. The mere nanosecond before he fired the first round, he was an 'honest and law abiding citizen'. After the two men were dead on the ground, shot in the backs without warning, the shooter was 'an honest and law abiding citizen'. In fact the only reason the guy had a gun in the first place was because someone somewhere thought he was responsible with a firearm. There are no laws I'm aware of that allow routine checks on someone's property to see if they are being responsible with their firearms.

The guy used the firearm in the belief of self defense. Unfortunately for him, his misunderstanding of 'self defense' will place him in prison. He could have called the police, keeping the firearm on his person should they try to attack him (that would be self defense).

Society assumed incorrectly that he was responsible with a firearm. Society does that through the laws of the land. West Virginia's laws, for better or worst, allowed that to happen and so must also deal with the consequences. It really is a very tragic set of events all around for all three individuals.

An absurd assessment of the facts.
innocent until proven guilty true
Everything else is an antigun nut rant.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 97

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 11:29:34 AM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
How on earth could anyone confuse that with self defense?

That's what many ask when stuff like this happens and the NRA-brigade of mindless 'fanboys' roll into the forums to defend a fellow gun owner from the evil government. In this case, it seems the reporter actually did some good journalism and got the facts correct in the matter.

(in reply to truckinslave)

Post #: 98

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 11:41:37 AM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominantWoman65
That wasn't a responsible gun owner nor was it self defense. That was just cold blooded murder.

Actually, until he's convicted in court by his peers he's STILL an 'honest and law abiding citizen'. The mere nanosecond before he fired the first round, he was an 'honest and law abiding citizen'. After the two men were dead on the ground, shot in the backs without warning, the shooter was 'an honest and law abiding citizen'. In fact the only reason the guy had a gun in the first place was because someone somewhere thought he was responsible with a firearm. There are no laws I'm aware of that allow routine checks on someone's property to see if they are being responsible with their firearms.

The guy used the firearm in the belief of self defense. Unfortunately for him, his misunderstanding of 'self defense' will place him in prison. He could have called the police, keeping the firearm on his person should they try to attack him (that would be self defense).

Society assumed incorrectly that he was responsible with a firearm. Society does that through the laws of the land. West Virginia's laws, for better or worst, allowed that to happen and so must also deal with the consequences. It really is a very tragic set of events all around for all three individuals.

An absurd assessment of the facts.
innocent until proven guilty true
Everything else is an antigun nut rant.

The mantra 'honest and law abiding citizen' comes directly out of gun-nut literature for the past few decades! Or do you wish to present an argument that thus denies both reality and US History? The NRA has been one to promote that mantra for political purposes. The guy has several options but unfortunately picked one of the bad decisions. An he'll have to go to court due to it. An I hope he has a fair trial if he presents the attitude he's not guilty.

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 99

RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 11:52:59 AM

lovmuffin

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
How on earth could anyone confuse that with self defense?

That's what many ask when stuff like this happens and the NRA-brigade of mindless 'fanboys' roll into the forums to defend a fellow gun owner from the evil government. In this case, it seems the reporter actually did some good journalism and got the facts correct in the matter.

Nobody is defending that. It's when something like the Zimmerman thing happens. The race baiters come out of the woodwork, major news networks present altered evidence to the general public (why did journalists deliberately get those facts wrong), anti gun idiots start bantering and ballyhooing about stand your ground laws even though it's not a SYG case and Zimmerman gets convicted in the court of public opinion by people making shit up to fit their own neat little scenarios and by gun haters who don't like people packin heat, all of that over a freak of nature.

< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 1/28/2014 12:46:22 PM >

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(in reply to joether)

Post #: 100

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