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RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 11:59:13 AM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
The mantra 'honest and law abiding citizen' comes directly out of gun-nut literature for the past few decades! Or do you wish to present an argument that thus denies both reality and US History? The NRA has been one to promote that mantra for political purposes.


Yep, the mantra comes from the NRA. What's your point, there is no such thing as an honest and law abiding gun owner ?

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

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(in reply to lovmuffin)
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RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 12:15:22 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
The mantra 'honest and law abiding citizen' comes directly out of gun-nut literature for the past few decades! Or do you wish to present an argument that thus denies both reality and US History? The NRA has been one to promote that mantra for political purposes.


Yep, the mantra comes from the NRA. What's your point, there is no such thing as an honest and law abiding gun owner ?

Again twisting reality to fit the anti gun view.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 12:16:25 PM   
MsMJAY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Once you codify a certain behavior in laws and set precedent for that behavior in court cases you end up with a lot of idiots using that law to victimize others.


The shooter in the Barboursville incident relied upon neither law nor precedent.


Well I am sure they told him what the law and precedent was in that class that all gun owners are required to take to make sure they understand when they can and cannot kill a person.....oops- wait a minute.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 12:40:53 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Once you codify a certain behavior in laws and set precedent for that behavior in court cases you end up with a lot of idiots using that law to victimize others.


The shooter in the Barboursville incident relied upon neither law nor precedent.


Well I am sure they told him what the law and precedent was in that class that all gun owners are required to take to make sure they understand when they can and cannot kill a person.....oops- wait a minute.

Never had the class and I know better, just common sense that this wouldn't fly.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 1:06:11 PM   
joether


Posts: 5195
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
The mantra 'honest and law abiding citizen' comes directly out of gun-nut literature for the past few decades! Or do you wish to present an argument that thus denies both reality and US History? The NRA has been one to promote that mantra for political purposes.

Yep, the mantra comes from the NRA. What's your point, there is no such thing as an honest and law abiding gun owner ?


I believe I made the point previously. That the individual in question, until given a charge of 'guilty' whether acted upon at arraignment or through trial by jury, the man is an 'honest and law abiding' person. Just like any other person. Nothing I stated in that post was untrue. Just that certain people do not like being 'grouped' together with others that clearly have done something illegal with the mantra. A 'knee jerk reaction' you might say.

A person is 'honest and law abiding citizen' whether or not they are also a firearm owner. Society, whether it be the Federal Government, or states themselves are responsible for the laws and penalties when firearms are involved in cases for better or worst. I believe most of us would ask "What the hell was going through that guy's head to arrive at that decision"?


(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 1:10:15 PM   
MsMJAY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Once you codify a certain behavior in laws and set precedent for that behavior in court cases you end up with a lot of idiots using that law to victimize others.


The shooter in the Barboursville incident relied upon neither law nor precedent.


Well I am sure they told him what the law and precedent was in that class that all gun owners are required to take to make sure they understand when they can and cannot kill a person.....oops- wait a minute.

Never had the class and I know better, just common sense that this wouldn't fly.


Unfortunately fear often rules out common sense. That's not surprising in a culture where people are increasingly being encouraged to use guns to solve their problems. The guy that shot the woman who was knocking on his door seeking help. The man who shot the Alzheimer's patient outside of his house. The guy that opened fire in a movie theater. The list goes on. In the heat of the moment people believe that shooting another person is completely rational and common sense behavior. People who have had some training or instruction in firearms have usually been told when it is and is not appropriate to act on their fear; and usually have been made to understand the consequences of what happens whenever you choose to pull that trigger.

But disregard this. I'm just one of those anti-gun nuts anyway, right? Absolutely no restrictions or requirements for gun ownership- I got it. On with the body count.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 1:56:14 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
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Status: offline 		There was an Afghan war veteran on NPR who lamented that many of the soldiers around him were lusting to kill someone. Bama kind of reminds me of that with his fetish fascination for guns and zealous enthusiasm for their use in resolving human disputes.

(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 2:00:22 PM   
Lucylastic


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the paranoia tells a tale all on its own



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Profile   Post #: 108
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 2:49:29 PM   
lovmuffin


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Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
The mantra 'honest and law abiding citizen' comes directly out of gun-nut literature for the past few decades! Or do you wish to present an argument that thus denies both reality and US History? The NRA has been one to promote that mantra for political purposes.

Yep, the mantra comes from the NRA. What's your point, there is no such thing as an honest and law abiding gun owner ?


I believe I made the point previously. That the individual in question, until given a charge of 'guilty' whether acted upon at arraignment or through trial by jury, the man is an 'honest and law abiding' person. Just like any other person. Nothing I stated in that post was untrue. Just that certain people do not like being 'grouped' together with others that clearly have done something illegal with the mantra. A 'knee jerk reaction' you might say.

A person is 'honest and law abiding citizen' whether or not they are also a firearm owner. Society, whether it be the Federal Government, or states themselves are responsible for the laws and penalties when firearms are involved in cases for better or worst. I believe most of us would ask "What the hell was going through that guy's head to arrive at that decision"?




Ok, fair enough and yes, WTF was he thinking.


_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to joether)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 3:04:32 PM   
hlen5


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Joined: 3/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

And sometimes this is what "self defense" looks like
http://www.wsaz.com/news/headlines/UPDATE-Two-Men-Shot-to-Death-by-Homeowner-in-Barboursville-241973841.html


Oh My God.


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Profile   Post #: 110
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 3:24:27 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
Unfortunately fear often rules out common sense. That's not surprising in a culture where people are increasingly being encouraged to use guns to solve their problems.


I'm sure that at times fear overrules common sense but how is culture encouraging us to use guns to solve our problems ?

quote:

ORIGINAL:
The guy that shot the woman who was knocking on his door seeking help. The man who shot the Alzheimer's patient outside of his house. The guy that opened fire in a movie theater.


I don't know how you lump a mass murderer in with the 2 idiots who.....who knows WTF they were thinking but the incidents are just not the same.

quote:

ORIGINAL:
But disregard this. I'm just one of those anti-gun nuts anyway, right? Absolutely no restrictions or requirements for gun ownership- I got it. On with the body count.


I've never really noticed you lashing out at guns babbling on not knowing what you're talking about like some here. Most gun owners don't have a problem with laws and restrictions. Its irrational useless draconian gun laws we're apposed to.

If they're the right bodies then by all means, on with the body count.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 3:40:45 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline
quote:

I don't know how you lump a mass murderer in with the 2 idiots who.....who knows WTF they were thinking but the incidents are just not the same.

erm yea, innocent people are dead, well unless they were "throwing popcorn" then hes an asshole who deserved to die... Bottom line is, people who didnt need to die, are dead by twats with guns.
Killed, dead, collateral damage.


_____________________________

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(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 3:55:19 PM   
MsMJAY


Posts: 515
Joined: 3/17/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I'm sure that at times fear overrules common sense but how is culture encouraging us to use guns to solve our problems ?

You are right. They are not encouraging us to use guns. Just open carry them with us at all times and "stand your ground." Using them is the natural consequence of that.

I don't know how you lump a mass murderer in with the 2 idiots who.....who knows WTF they were thinking but the incidents are just not the same.

I didn't mean the mass murder. I meant the guy just a couple of weeks ago that shot the man in the movies. Something to do with texting and throwing popcorn.

Most gun owners don't have a problem with laws and restrictions. Its irrational useless draconian gun laws we're apposed to.

Some of us gun owners (like myself) are in full support of laws and restrictions. Its the ones who don't want any restrictions that are keeping gun laws from being passed. Much of this is being fueled by the NRA and gun dealers who do not want to see a decrease in their sales.

If they're the right bodies then by all means, on with the body count.

The shooter in this story thought the men at "his" woodshed were the right bodies. All the people in the instances I named thought they were shooting the right bodies too.


(in reply to lovmuffin)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 5:44:28 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Well if you're going to leave a loaded gun by the door (which also is kind of dangerous in that it's potentially much closer to someone invading your home than it is to you) then she'd better have some basic ability to interact with it. But wouldn't putting it in a gun safe before you left also be a reasonable alternative?



Reasonable questions, but for the specific circumstances of that house, no. Loaded and easily accessible at all times (to those who knew where to put their hand) was the way to go.

_____________________________

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 6:29:40 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

Once you codify a certain behavior in laws and set precedent for that behavior in court cases you end up with a lot of idiots using that law to victimize others.


The shooter in the Barboursville incident relied upon neither law nor precedent.


Well I am sure they told him what the law and precedent was in that class that all gun owners are required to take to make sure they understand when they can and cannot kill a person.....oops- wait a minute.

Never had the class and I know better, just common sense that this wouldn't fly.


Unfortunately fear often rules out common sense. That's not surprising in a culture where people are increasingly being encouraged to use guns to solve their problems. The guy that shot the woman who was knocking on his door seeking help. The man who shot the Alzheimer's patient outside of his house. The guy that opened fire in a movie theater. The list goes on. In the heat of the moment people believe that shooting another person is completely rational and common sense behavior. People who have had some training or instruction in firearms have usually been told when it is and is not appropriate to act on their fear; and usually have been made to understand the consequences of what happens whenever you choose to pull that trigger.

But disregard this. I'm just one of those anti-gun nuts anyway, right? Absolutely no restrictions or requirements for gun ownership- I got it. On with the body count.

I never said you were one of the anti gun nuts.
Do you realize that you are falling for what you were complaining about.
2nd Amendment isn't something you care for so diminishing gun rights is ok with you.
When you hold my ox for goring yours won't be far behind.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 6:31:27 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

There was an Afghan war veteran on NPR who lamented that many of the soldiers around him were lusting to kill someone. Bama kind of reminds me of that with his fetish fascination for guns and zealous enthusiasm for their use in resolving human disputes.

Shows what you know, violence is a last resort, only and always.
You want to let the barbarians rule the streets.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 6:33:37 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

I don't know how you lump a mass murderer in with the 2 idiots who.....who knows WTF they were thinking but the incidents are just not the same.

erm yea, innocent people are dead, well unless they were "throwing popcorn" then hes an asshole who deserved to die... Bottom line is, people who didnt need to die, are dead by twats with guns.
Killed, dead, collateral damage.


Innocent is an exaggeration. Was he wrong to shoot them? yes

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 6:36:01 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Well if you're going to leave a loaded gun by the door (which also is kind of dangerous in that it's potentially much closer to someone invading your home than it is to you) then she'd better have some basic ability to interact with it. But wouldn't putting it in a gun safe before you left also be a reasonable alternative?


Right in a gun safe where she can't use it.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 6:39:47 PM   
lovmuffin


Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MsMJAY
You are right. They are not encouraging us to use guns. Just open carry them with us at all times and "stand your ground." Using them is the natural consequence of that.


You mean concealed carry, right ? Maybe certain powers that be are affording the opportunity, in more states than in previous years, to get a carry permit. I don't know where anyone is encouraging us to go out and get those permits. SYG laws simply prevent over zealous anti gun prosecutors from prosecuting people who had a legitimate self defense situation. It's unfortunate that it gives some people a green light to shoot when it's totally unnecessary but I think a hand full of high profile cases are making it seem like its a license to kill when the reality is that it doesn't happen as often as the anti gun media is making it look. I think most of these idiots using SYG illegitimately are winding up in jail. Juries aren't buying it nor would I if I'm on that jury.

quote:

ORIGINAL:
Some of us gun owners (like myself) are in full support of laws and restrictions. Its the ones who don't want any restrictions that are keeping gun laws from being passed. Much of this is being fueled by the NRA and gun dealers who do not want to see a decrease in their sales.


I'm in support of gun laws and restrictions but many of those laws and restrictions being proposed are irrational, useless, draconian and clear violations of our constitutional rights. We have in excess of 20,000 gun laws on the books yet we don't enforce them effectively. Out of the tens of thousands of idiots turned down by background checks each year because of felony disabilities, only a handful are arrested and prosecuted. The overwhelming majority of gun dealers don't want guns in the hands of criminals or idiots anymore than you or I. The opposition to draconian laws have little to do with dealers wanting to maintain their sales and more to do with the 2nd Amendment. If it wasn't for the NRA you would long ago have been reduced to owning little more than a registered muzzle loader.

quote:

ORIGINAL:
The shooter in this story thought the men at "his" woodshed were the right bodies. All the people in the instances I named thought they were shooting the right bodies too.


Yep, those definately were not the right bodies.



< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 1/28/2014 6:48:13 PM >

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to MsMJAY)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: N C home invasion shows that NC is civilized state - 1/28/2014 6:48:33 PM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
Never answer extraneous questions. Never.

Yes you're right.


I had to ask because my search for the police report listed that Matthew Pinkerton shot the victim after inviting him into the house for unknown reasons. Which is the sort of thing a DA might tend to prosecute.

If instead of that it was actually a completely different scenario involving a home invasion then I would worry about the DA

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 120
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