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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/9/2014 8:19:52 PM   
Darkfeather


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83


quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather

You sir, don't know what you are talking about. Gold was is and always will be a precious commodity, and therefore in high demand. Copper on the other hand, was easy to produce, and relatively easy to work with. If you were mass producing money for the millions of your subjects, I ask you... Which would you use for currency??? That simple fact sir, is why we don't use gold for mass produced coin even today.

Hmm, I'm not a currency expert, and I have no idea about that coin but I'm pretty sure that the biggest factor determining the value of coinage until relatively recently, has been its metal value.

So... A coper coin was worth it's weight in copper... Silver in silver, gold in gold.
That being said I'm not sure I get your question. There have been coins of all those denominations throughout history.


Actually, the value of a coin is basically what the issuing body places on it, initially. Of course, its value then goes up or down on the open market based on weight or rarity. But in terms of it's listed value, it always will forever be that value. For instance, the first U.S. gold Dollar coin appeared in 1849. They were made of 90% pure gold, and were about the size of a quarter. This was why they were unpopular, heavy and small, easily lost. Most people back then would have been pissed to lose a handful of quarters through a hole in their pocket, but a handful of dollars, they would have been absolutely livid. Now here is the kicker. If you had a 1849 gold dollar, in mint condition, and you went to the U.S. Mint in Philadelphia PA to exchange that bad boy for some modern currency, guess how much the clerk would give you? One crisp new dollar bill. Why, because to the US government, that coin is only worth one dollar. One dollar in 1849, and one dollar now. To a collector, or a gold merchant though, you might be able to buy a new car.

But to answer your question, of course there have been coins of all denominations throughout history. But as with gold and silver, some are much more common then others. Copper and nickel are way more common in our coinage today, than gold or silver. Just as copper was back then. Did they use gold, I am sure they did. Was it widely used in mass circulation, hell no, hence my point

< Message edited by Darkfeather -- 2/9/2014 8:22:17 PM >

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/9/2014 8:32:46 PM   
FrostedFlake


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Status: offline 		There is a startling difference between Neanderthal and Sapiens. Big gut, conical ribs, heavy bones armored head suddenly changes to a modest gut, a cylindrical ribs, light bones and a fat head. The total effect is a distinct morphological discontinuity.

But.

We have to keep in mind the few data points involved and the sweep of time. About 6500 or 7000 generations ago, we looked like this.



This fellow is Skhul 5. And he is 100,000. You can see he has the forehead, brows, and jaw of Neanderthal. But his cheekbones look just like ours. And quite unlike a Neanderthal. This is one of those "missing link" fossils that we are always hearing don't exist. At this time, hearing from Mr Alford. And as much respect as I have for the profession of Accounting, I note that Mr Alford is no longer counted among their number. Not exactly an accolade.

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/9/2014 8:58:59 PM   
Dvr22999874


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Status: offline 		This may sound like a dumb question but WHY was gold considered to be precious ? I have no idea what it's uses are now, apart from decorative but I can't think of too many uses it would have had way back in the dim and distant. Apart from decorative.
Native Americans appear to have had no use for it until the white man arrived with his pick, shovel and greed. A lot of the races back to the ancient meditterannean ones seem to have been of a similar mind. They had little use for it apart from decorative. So what is/WAS it worth ?
And NO, I am not being a smartass or being sarcastic. I am gernuinely interested.

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/9/2014 9:54:09 PM   
MercTech


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Status: offline 		The explanation for a gold standard is one I remember from history class.

A> From classical Greek times, it was considered a "noble metal" because it did not corrode. It was durable. You have to make a hard effort to come up with something that will dissolve gold.

B> The supply was finite limiting just how much coinage you could produce thus limiting inflation.

In the U.S., the original definition of a dollar was a coin containing one gram of gold. A dime (tenth of a dollar) was a coin containing one gram of silver. Same for a penny (hundredth of a dollar) being a coin containing a gram of copper.

These days, since we quit using inflation resistant money, a dollar is a piece of paper worth one gram of fuel oil. <tongue firmly in cheek>

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/9/2014 10:02:09 PM   
Dvr22999874


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Status: offline 		Thanks......That explains WHY it was used for coinage but apart from that, what other uses could it be put to ? Yes, it didn't corrode easily but so what ? What could you use it for ? A non-corroding but very bendy spear head maybe ? *smile*. basically it was totally useless apart from as a decoration or as coinage.

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/9/2014 10:10:18 PM   
Dvr22999874


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Status: offline 		I apologise if I appear obtuse but the only time I went to Oxford University was to deliver groceries and you don't need a college education to do that *smile*..............not so much a green-grocer; more of a dirty yellow colour.

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/9/2014 10:25:58 PM   
Darkfeather


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Thanks......That explains WHY it was used for coinage but apart from that, what other uses could it be put to ? Yes, it didn't corrode easily but so what ? What could you use it for ? A non-corroding but very bendy spear head maybe ? *smile*. basically it was totally useless apart from as a decoration or as coinage.


Gold is a soft, dense metal. For tools or weaponry it is quite useless. But for adornments, it turns out it works rather well. It polishes up to a nice shine, hold its shape very well, is very easy to work with (has a very low melting point), and lasts almost indefinitely. So while it sucks for weapons or armor, it works for more aesthetic purposes, jewelry and other items of value. That also goes along with its rarity, as with other "precious" metals

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/9/2014 10:46:45 PM   
ARIES83


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Status: offline 		Thanks MercTech,
That was what I was trying to explain very poorly.

quote:

darkfeather:
Gold was is and always will be a precious commodity, and therefore in high demand. Copper on the other hand, was easy to produce, and relatively easy to work with. If you were mass producing money for the millions of your subjects, I ask you... Which would you use for currency??? That simple fact sir, is why we don't use gold for mass produced coin even today.

I'm sure the reason for there being countless more low value coins, would just be that there is much more call for lower amounts in everyday transactions, having a gold coin back in roman times was probably equivalent to carrying around the the price of a house or something. How's someone going to make change for that!

This type of thing is what I was referring to darkfeather!
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard
*Basically when coins were more than tokens and actually had intrinsic value*

quote:

darkfeather:
But to answer your question, of course there have been coins of all denominations throughout history. But as with gold and silver, some are much more common then others. Copper and nickel are way more common in our coinage today, than gold or silver. Just as copper was back then. Did they use gold, I am sure they did. Was it widely used in mass circulation, hell no, hence my point


I didn't ask a question. But I have one.
Could you link some info on that coin? It looks very goldish to me.

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 2/9/2014 11:07:50 PM >

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/9/2014 11:20:21 PM   
Darkfeather


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

Thanks MercTech,
That was what I was trying to explain very poorly.

quote:

darkfeather:
Gold was is and always will be a precious commodity, and therefore in high demand. Copper on the other hand, was easy to produce, and relatively easy to work with. If you were mass producing money for the millions of your subjects, I ask you... Which would you use for currency??? That simple fact sir, is why we don't use gold for mass produced coin even today.

I'm sure the reason for there being countless more low value coins, would just be that there is much more call for lower amounts in everyday transactions, having a gold coin back in roman times was probably equivalent to carrying around the the price of a house or something. How's someone going to make change for that!

This type of thing is what I was referring to darkfeather!
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_standard

quote:

darkfeather:
But to answer your question, of course there have been coins of all denominations throughout history. But as with gold and silver, some are much more common then others. Copper and nickel are way more common in our coinage today, than gold or silver. Just as copper was back then. Did they use gold, I am sure they did. Was it widely used in mass circulation, hell no, hence my point


I didn't ask a question. But I have one.
Could you link some info on that coin? It looks very goldish to me.


Roman Copper coin I just typed in roman copper coin into google. I know what the gold standard is, and we haven't used it since our economy debt far outreached our gold value to cover paper money value. But I already explained this with the US 1849 Gold Dollar. It was worth one dollar in 1849. It is worth, one dollar in 2014, it will be worth, one dollar in 3014. The US only give face value for its currency, even when it used the gold standard. When you had a 5 dollar gold note, guess what, you got 5 dollars worth of gold, if you traveled to the US Mint and traded in that paper note for gold. That was the going daily value of 5 dollars in gold. You might have gotten a little more actual gold the day before, or a little less the next day. But you only got 5 dollars worth of gold for your 5 dollar paper note. That is why we don't have massive amounts of silver and gold coins in circulation. Because it would be wasteful. A gold nickel would be worth guess how much, 5 cents, no matter how much gold was in it. To a collector or a gold merchant, sure it would be worth a hell of a lot more. But in US currency, it would be worth 5 cents. So we use the cheap stuff, nickel. Same with any nation that mass produces coinage. They use the cheap stuff, because it is essentially worthless, pocket change. Stuff that gets lost in the couch, thrown in fountains, dropped in the street, etc. No nation would mass produce precious metals in quantity for something as trivial as coins. Special occasions, limited editions, aristocracy, sure. But for the masses, daily use, no way

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/9/2014 11:35:12 PM   
FrostedFlake


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Status: offline 		Gold was the first metal. Unlike other metals, gold doesn't need to be smelted, necessarily, because it doesn't oxidize. It can last millions of years in all weather. It was picked up off the ground and out of streams in lumps and bits. Easily worked and with a melt point below what could be achieved without special effects, it was without peer. In a stone age culture, gold is a magical material. Way far outside the usual. Consider : Bone, stone, earth, water, wood, leather, gold. One of these really stands out.

Uses : Concentration of wealth. Exchange. Status display. Jewelry. Hooks, pins and buttons, for fastening clothing. Grooming accessories. Items for use with food and drink. Once mercury is conquered, add dentistry to the mix.



< Message edited by FrostedFlake -- 2/9/2014 11:37:29 PM >

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/9/2014 11:35:19 PM   
Dvr22999874


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Status: offline 		Okay and thank you gentlemen. So basically it is what I said, good only for currency and for ornamentation/decoration and even then, not used for currency any more. You explained it very succinctly indeed and again, I thank you.

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/10/2014 1:51:05 AM   
ARIES83


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Status: offline 		Thanks, I wonder why it's that colour.

I have only been trying to point out that in the past precious and semi-precious metals were used and that a major factor determining the value of ancient coinage was it's metal value.
No need to describe the workings of modern money.


Vikings used silver as a medium of exchange I remember that from when I was researching silver a while ago.
The difference between modern and ancient money is that today we use money in a fully abstract form.
The media which carry the function of of money has no inherent value.
With most ancient monies the medium of payment carried the value within themselves.

And I'm pretty sure you already know all this, but possibly hung up on trying to get across your point...
quote:

No nation would mass produce precious metals in quantity for something as trivial as coins. Special occasions, limited editions, aristocracy, sure. But for the masses, daily use, no way

Metal. Value. Grrrr

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/10/2014 8:03:23 AM   
MasterCaneman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

There is a startling difference between Neanderthal and Sapiens. Big gut, conical ribs, heavy bones armored head suddenly changes to a modest gut, a cylindrical ribs, light bones and a fat head. The total effect is a distinct morphological discontinuity.

But.

We have to keep in mind the few data points involved and the sweep of time. About 6500 or 7000 generations ago, we looked like this.



This fellow is Skhul 5. And he is 100,000. You can see he has the forehead, brows, and jaw of Neanderthal. But his cheekbones look just like ours. And quite unlike a Neanderthal. This is one of those "missing link" fossils that we are always hearing don't exist. At this time, hearing from Mr Alford. And as much respect as I have for the profession of Accounting, I note that Mr Alford is no longer counted among their number. Not exactly an accolade.


Again, point taken, but it could also mean only evidence of crossbreeding between the sub-species. If I am not mistaken (anthropology is not my strong suit), there were no less that three distinct human sub species on Earth around that time (Sapiens, Neandertal, and Erectus), and based upon my experiences, we're all susceptible to the '3 AM Syndrome'. The fact is, there are examples of anatomically correct H.Sapiens that are 200,000 years old. My assertion is that they may have created a civilization and technology base that is now lost to time. Or not.

But while the seemingly overnight evolution of H. Sapiens may seem as if there were another hand in it, consider this argument that was postulated: mankind has practiced genetic engineering for thousands of years. Food crops, dogs, livestock are one example, and it's not a big step to see them applying the same techniques to themselves. Let's say a Neolithic farmer who already knows that if you breed a cow or goat with desirable characteristics with another with different desirable characteristics may yield offspring with them, why not another human?

Blonde hair and blue eyes are supposedly a very recent mutation in our species, or so it's been said. Let's say some nameless Neolithic farmer's wives delivered a child with a strange new hair color. It pleased him, and when that child was of age, he discovered that there was another child born in a village with unearthly blue eyes. "Now that would be something to see!" he thinks. Arrangements are made for when they're ready, they are wed, and along comes a another example that carries both genes. The rest is up to time and luck, but now we have a substantial fraction of our species with blonde hair/blue eyes. (and for that we thank said nameless Neolithic farmer).

The point is, we can't take these scattered data points (yet) and conclusively say this occurred at this point along the timeline, because our ancestors have muddied the waters very well before we've reached the point we can properly study the evidence. In places, the lineage will run true because of limited or no contact with other species, in others, there may have been contact with all three at the same time. Two fossils laid down at the same exact moment in time therefore might show one species with only what we consider modern traits, while the second could show influence from two or more sub-species. And using DNA as a roadmap has it's limitations. The last article I read says that the H. Sapiens genome can only be read back roughly 150K years, or something like that, which puts limits on how much influence on possible cross-breeding occurred.

But as I said, I'm a 'nuts and bolts' guy, and I stand by what I said earlier about artifacts, their decay, dissolution, and destruction making it hard to determine if there were no 'assistance' at all, the 'space brothers', or some unknown and unnamed culture whose achievements are lost in time.

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/10/2014 9:55:33 AM   
Darkfeather


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

Thanks, I wonder why it's that colour.

I have only been trying to point out that in the past precious and semi-precious metals were used and that a major factor determining the value of ancient coinage was it's metal value.
No need to describe the workings of modern money.


Vikings used silver as a medium of exchange I remember that from when I was researching silver a while ago.
The difference between modern and ancient money is that today we use money in a fully abstract form.
The media which carry the function of of money has no inherent value.
With most ancient monies the medium of payment carried the value within themselves.

And I'm pretty sure you already know all this, but possibly hung up on trying to get across your point...
quote:

No nation would mass produce precious metals in quantity for something as trivial as coins. Special occasions, limited editions, aristocracy, sure. But for the masses, daily use, no way

Metal. Value. Grrrr


Actually, its still only the value that those who issue said currency give it value. Coins are only a progressive representation of what we as humans used to use for trade. From polished shells and stones, to beads and gems, feathers and bones. We have used all kinds of things to represent forms of currency, even livestock. The use of coins came out of a need to make things universal. When those small countries began to get absorbed into bigger and bigger nations, you could walk 2 miles and find the same fish costing two pebbles, one sack of grain, 3 feathers and a chicken, etc. Coinage came out of the need to get rid of all these different trade means, and form one across a nation. Now if you have 3 million people you need to then produce coins for, do you make it out of gold? Silver? Any rare, precious metal you horde for your jewelry, coffers, royal cutlery, etc? No frikkin way. You make coins for the masses out of the cheapest stuff you can find. The romans used copper, because it was everywhere, and easy to refine. Cheap and effective for mass coinage. I am not saying people didn't use rare metals to trade, hell we still do that today on rare occasions. But they did not use it for mass production. No sane person would ever do that.

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/10/2014 2:24:00 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Thanks......That explains WHY it was used for coinage but apart from that, what other uses could it be put to ? Yes, it didn't corrode easily but so what ? What could you use it for ? A non-corroding but very bendy spear head maybe ? *smile*. basically it was totally useless apart from as a decoration or as coinage.


Gold is used in computer parts and other technological stuff because of its non corroding properties.

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/10/2014 4:37:08 PM   
ARIES83


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Status: offline 		http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_money
Well, I made my point a while ago so I'll just paste that^ link leave you to yours.


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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/10/2014 5:05:19 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		I transmitted this question about alien genetic manipulation of humans to my superiors.

Their reply:

quote:

Seriously? You really had to ask that question?

If we or any other known species had done anything to change or guide human evolution on that planet, dont you think we would have insured that people like Lee Halpin, Gary Allen Banning, Sérgio A. Rosa, not to mention a number of politicians around that planet would never have been born?

We would have eliminated the stupidity gene from the race.

An intelligent species do not build large housing developments in the hunting grounds of large predators, go swimming in water known to be the habitat of large reptiles with a fondness for meat, or fish that tend to take large portions of flesh to taste to determine nutritional value.

Furthermore, we refer you to your recent report entitled "Reality Television."

The Science Directorate is unsure whether the human race is actually intelligent, or merely very lucky advanced tool users.

It has already been decided that it will be at least another 500 Galactic years before we dare make contact.

Chairman of the Anthropology committee.



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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/10/2014 5:51:30 PM   
Darkfeather


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_money
Well, I made my point a while ago so I'll just paste that^ link leave you to yours.



And here, I'll leave this in reply... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_currency

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/10/2014 7:31:19 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The science of genetics is only about 144 years old


Hmm... I guess it rather depends on how you define a "Science" in the context of this.

People have been managing the evolution of crops by exploiting natural selection for thousands of years.



The discovery of DNA was 1889 and speak of simply cross breeding plant life not research into the human genome.

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RE: Gods of the New Millennium - 2/10/2014 7:34:23 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RemoteUser

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Well in no. 1 you have what's found on earth. Man has in fact discovered amino acids in space and also keep in mind the odds that with it a fact that there is intelligent life in the universe proves beyond all doubt that it exists, then it could also be...somewhere besides earth.

All of which confirms no matter the odds that life could have existed millennium ago, could have visited earth and could have fucked with man.


Stick with could, at least by staying within the mathematical boundaries you won't fall over the precipice of certainty.


What mathematical boundaries ?

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