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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/18/2014 6:51:41 AM   
orgasmdenial12


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g
Oh yeah, I completely agree on that point. But that's just a naming issue.


Isn't this whole thread about naming issues?

In my opinion, there is tremendous power in naming, or in resisting names.

It's the difference between racism and acceptance, sexism and equality.

For me, consent is the single most important feature of BDSM. As soon as we start suggesting that it's okay to ignore consent then we are getting into shaky territory, imo.

Obviously I can't control what other people say or do - but I can keep repeating that my play is 100% consensual, that even at moments when I hate what I am doing, it is 100% consensual - and my consent makes those moments okay. Even when I am screaming and fighting to get away, it is still consensual, and my consent makes it okay for him to carry on at those moments. Otherwise, I feel that I am glorifying domestic violence and rape, and I'm too much a feminist to keep that company.

Besides which, consent is beautiful in a way that non-consent isn't. It's powerful to give permission - to tie yourself into a commitment that will be impossibly hard at times. I like and respect consent, and I admire people who are able to give consent to things that seem unbearably hard to me, just to please another person or to explore something deep within their psyche.

I guess I like making scary promises, and the journey that keeping those promises takes me on. If I knew I could back our of those promises, it just wouldn't be as exciting. I'm a very strong and determined person and I don't allow things to happen to me without my consent, so if I want to go on this journey, I have to consent to it. Consent, for me, is about acknowledging that I want this. It would be much easier to say I'm only doing it because they want it, it can be embarrassing to admit that you want and need things like pain, punishment, degradation, humiliation, etc. But I have no interest in making a Dom carry the weight and burden of my desires. I don't want anyone to have to play the bad guy, just to satisfy the things I really want. Admitting I want them is part of the journey. Consent, for me, is about having the courage to face up to your own desires, no matter how nasty or scary they are.

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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/18/2014 7:08:39 AM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
If I want to nail her tongue to a cutting board and feed the slut her own urine I can.
Now she won't be necessarily be thrilled about it (Not many people would...but hey, if you're out there and are, drop me a line )but she will do it.
The alternative is sayanora.


It's clear in this forum that you and Little Wonder have a very loving relationship. But has there been any challenge there is too much for her? Do you as a dom understand her and her limits and although you are acting all tough right now, do you think you manage the whole situation by understanding her real limits and making things happen that isn't "setting her up to fail" because you know where she is, and where she's willing to be?

Or do you think you're all about, let's just throw out whatever the hell I want, and so far, she's been saying yes to everything.

Also, My gut is, you know her very well, you know her limits, and little wonder obviously can take ALOT, but you love her too much to ever push her beyond where it might create a situation where, you might have to let her walk instead of compromise and drop that expectation, because she means alot to you.

If she chooses to walk one day, you think it would be so easy to just let her walk and let her go? If it is, then..., it's even more confusing exactly what it is that you feel for her? It's really just bdsm based?



In most ways your gut is right.
I'm pretty contrary by nature though, so every once in a while I get ornery and have her do shit exactly because she thinks I'd never make her do it.
But yeah, I'm a smart guy. I know what she can and can't don't. Equally important, I know what she won't do.
And vice versa.
She knows I'd never ask her to betray her morals and values, to diminish herself, sell herself as a human being.
That's simply because I'm a decent fair man.

But those other things, I'd have to evaluate (Remember that lots of what I do for a living is risk management) whether the risk was worth the reward. In other words, ask myself, "Is this important enough to me that I'm going to risk our trust, our faith and our love over it?"
If the answer is Yes, then I move ahead. If not, then I don't.
And she knows me well enough to understand that when it comes to big things, I move neither quickly nor w/o long thought. She knows I weigh these things. And because, if it was big enough, she knows that, then she operates within that knowledge framework.

As for things she won't do, hmmmm, well, after lots of twisting and moaning and groaning she went and fetched the hammer, nails and boards for the tongue thing so we know she'd do that.
But every once in a while I run across weird shit.
Like one day we were sitting on a pier at a pond. I wanted her to come sit with me. She was like nonononono and kinda freaked. The more I pushed, the paler she got.
Turned out she:
A-Didn't know how to swim.
B-Has a deathly phobia re water.

Now sitting on the edge of a pier isn't a big deal to me. Plus, I understand that we all have tripwires in our heads-I had just went sprawling over one of hers. She was all upset (because she thought I was). I was annoyed at myself.
So I apologized...because I had been the ass.

As for letting her go-I only said I would.
I didn't say anything about it not hurting...because it would. Lots. For a long time. Bad
But in the end I would emerge from the chrysalis of pain, changed, a different man for having undergone the experience, and I would move on.

What I can say for sure, cuz I've done it in the past and would do it again, is that I don't let my heart make power decisions for me. I've had people I care about deeply make decisions to leave, often what I thought rashly for small reasons and I've always let em. I've also pointed out that because that door swings one way, it doesn't necessarily mean it will swing open again to her. She's rolling the dice.
If I decide her actions are a direct challenge to my authority, it's done.
Because WTF is a power exchange if she dictates the terms?
Then we're just living a lie...and both of us are to self aware to want to do that.The personal price is to high.
Sure I like her,but I gotta wake up with me everyday and I prefer waking to a me I like and can live with.
So does she. Integrity is important to us.
Soooooo,and new people read this real real close, I'm very careful about the orders I make, lest they ensnare me as much as her...because if I give her a direct command,especially an ultimatum or a threat, I have to follow it through or I've just flushed all my authority away in one second.
Otherwise she won't trust my word,so she will slowly lose respect.Worse,the ground rules would be constantly shifting. Sometimes orders need to be followed.Sometimes not. Sometimes consequences occur.Sometimes not.And all with neither rhyme nor reason,but on a whim.
Fuck,nobody likes to function like that.
Instead, she knows if I say it, it is...and that's a good thing.


One last final comment-I know this sounds kinda harsh,but it's not nearly as tough as it sounds.Mostly because mouse is a terrific slave,partly because I'm flat out to old and lazy to micromanage-that shit gets tiresome.I'm a lot less strict than I come off and mouse has considerable leeway,so much so that I suspect hardcore protocol people would be offended.
We don't do this because it's brutal.We do it because it makes our lives simple.The less ambiguity, the less grey lines.The less grey lines,the fewer possible points of misunderstanding.




< Message edited by Kana -- 2/18/2014 7:14:36 AM >


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(in reply to Greta75)
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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/18/2014 7:57:58 AM   
Greta75


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Thanks for sharing Kana, I feel that this is valuable inside information for new and inexperience doms, on how such relationships work.
I love the part where you advice them not to make ultimatum or threats they will regret later and want to take back. They should really weigh things carefully and think through things thoroughly before making such decisions.


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 2/18/2014 8:00:45 AM >

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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/18/2014 8:25:49 AM   
ARIES83


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^Thanks for sharing kana. Good posting.

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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/18/2014 10:34:24 AM   
MercTech


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Is it just me but does anyone else see consensual non-consent abbreviated to CNC and see pictures of computer controlled lathes?

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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/18/2014 11:05:23 AM   
FieryOpal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Is it just me but does anyone else see consensual non-consent abbreviated to CNC and see pictures of computer controlled lathes?

I thought it was non-consensual consent despite orgasmdenial12's usage of the acronym CNC -- Shouldn't it be NCC, the operative word being "consent" instead of "non-consent"?

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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/18/2014 12:03:48 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

A regular poster who identified as property once posted "It was her Master's decision whether or not she continue breathing ". If I understood her history correctly, she would have internalized her slavery to the bone.

I was just thinking of her the other day and wondering what would happen if he decided she not continue. Would she fight in the end? I'd like to think so. If that's the case, then consensual slavery is an artificial construct.

And to answer the OP, no.

ETA: I haven't seen that property post here in years, by the way.



I admit, this is Master and I pretty much. It's his decision....about anything...period. I am his slave, his property, his "it". It's not a term we take lightly and not without really knowing who we both are. We both are comfortable with our terms and places. His choices, his decisions. Nothing is off limits.

Webster's Dictionary:

"1
: a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
2
: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence
3
: a device (as the printer of a computer) that is directly responsive to another
4
: drudge, toiler "


Are you agreeing to both the bolded parts (Ignore the bolded ETA)?



Yes.

For further information, refer back to Master's posts here.


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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/18/2014 12:21:39 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Kana tends to be a bit blunt, you know? Like a sledge hammer.

Just wanted to add an addendum about the shoes. Although I am allowed to spend up to $50 w/o his permission, this doesn't apply to shoes, boots or (big whine here) purses. He learned rather quickly I can find a *lot* of shoes I like under $50.

So his original directive had to be modified. That's *real* control, when you give up the ability to buy shoes and purses unless you have permission. (I tried making it a hard limit, but he didn't buy that one.)




Master says i can find a loophole through anything.
He's learned over time to be verrry specific.

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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/18/2014 3:56:38 PM   
Kana


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quote:

Master says i can find a loophole through anything.
He's learned over time to be verrry specific.

It's kinda pathetic actually. I have a law degree, read/enforce/dissect federal procurement contracts for work and enjoy playing (i.e.twisting as she calls it. Interpreting/defining is my perception ) with words/etymology/rules/byzantine subclauses.
She reads Jesuit logic and hardcore Jewish religious theory for fun
We both were leaders on debate teams.
And I adore watching her try to wriggle her way out of stuff-it's so much fun watching her twist, writhe and finesse.Especially when I know she's dead meat and I'm judge,jury and executioner and you can bet I know how to properly incentivize her.

Our "trials" can get interesting...

< Message edited by Kana -- 2/18/2014 3:57:19 PM >


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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/19/2014 12:46:53 AM   
KMsAngel


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that would be an educational experience. i don't supposed you'd record it. for edification purposes. of course.

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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/19/2014 12:54:57 AM   
pg4g


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Of course...

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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/19/2014 12:57:50 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83
How do you define slavery?

It is a consequence of the composition of the mind, just as dom(me)s and subs and other psychology types are defined by the composition of their minds.

The concept unfortunately is erroneously conflated with people who are forced to perform labor.


_____________________________

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"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/19/2014 5:27:03 AM   
bondman53


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I don't think you can ask the question ''Are you a slave'' in a media where everyone has access to the internet, obviously a telephone, and has freedom of speech, movement and all the basic human rights, and it's very unlikely that anyone accessing this site would truly want to live as a slave.

Who among us (MAN OR WOMAN) in their right mind would want to live as a sex slave, not to some hunky billionaire as depicted in 50 shades of grey, but in a run down lice infested room in some sleazy city where you are forced to service all comers.

Or who would want to live in a north Korean labour camp? not many I imagine.

Our idea of slavery is totally different from the real thing, so no I would never want to be a slave.




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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/19/2014 5:56:49 AM   
FieryOpal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bondman53

... it's very unlikely that anyone accessing this site would truly want to live as a slave.

Who among us (MAN OR WOMAN) in their right mind would want to live as a sex slave....

Our idea of slavery is totally different from the real thing, so no I would never want to be a slave.


Not only is being a slave a fantasy construct, any *real* form of slavery would be reprehensible IMO. I view slavery much like a form of brainwashing, yet there are those who seek out mind control by another who equally seeks to control them.

I realize there are some who would protest that although they consider themselves and are considered a slave in their M/s dynamic, that they can think for themselves and have veto rights, deal breakers, and Hard Limits. Even the ones who claim they have waived such rights (i.e., the "no-limits slave") are still operating under the "Emperor has no clothes on" premise.

When you start off with a faulty premise, then function or operate on faulty principles, you end up with the wrong conclusion.

Nice first post, bondman53. And btw, I would never have a sex slave per se, but I can guarantee you he should be so lucky.

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There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/19/2014 6:03:24 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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I like the elephant analogy.

A while back (a year?) we had a great discussion on internal enslavement that discussed the pros and cons, much of which were based on past experiences.

If you didn't catch that thread it's well worth the (long) read.

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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/19/2014 11:39:46 AM   
pg4g


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
Not only is being a slave a fantasy construct, any *real* form of slavery would be reprehensible IMO. I view slavery much like a form of brainwashing, yet there are those who seek out mind control by another who equally seeks to control them.

I realize there are some who would protest that although they consider themselves and are considered a slave in their M/s dynamic, that they can think for themselves and have veto rights, deal breakers, and Hard Limits. Even the ones who claim they have waived such rights (i.e., the "no-limits slave") are still operating under the "Emperor has no clothes on" premise.

When you start off with a faulty premise, then function or operate on faulty principles, you end up with the wrong conclusion.

Nice first post, bondman53. And btw, I would never have a sex slave per se, but I can guarantee you he should be so lucky.


Yeah, one of the main issues with brainwashing and mind control are around the fact that you can't have adequate consent if you're actually doing this for real. Once you really start mucking with someone's head like that, their willingness to back out isn't now "free". Very dangerous territory.

< Message edited by pg4g -- 2/19/2014 11:40:29 AM >

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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/19/2014 11:50:08 AM   
MasterCaneman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bondman53

I don't think you can ask the question ''Are you a slave'' in a media where everyone has access to the internet, obviously a telephone, and has freedom of speech, movement and all the basic human rights, and it's very unlikely that anyone accessing this site would truly want to live as a slave.

Who among us (MAN OR WOMAN) in their right mind would want to live as a sex slave, not to some hunky billionaire as depicted in 50 shades of grey, but in a run down lice infested room in some sleazy city where you are forced to service all comers.

Or who would want to live in a north Korean labour camp? not many I imagine.

Our idea of slavery is totally different from the real thing, so no I would never want to be a slave.





That's the paradox of the whole scene. In my (koffkoff) 'research' in the past (translation: I was looking for dirty pictures), I would run across articles about real life slavery, and it's not anything a sane person would want to experience. There are no nice, clean dungeons with upholstered furnishings, kinky outfits, aftercare, and walking away when its over. They live in fear and squalor for the most part, trapped in a life of unpleasant conditions and forced to perform acts most pros wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole. I watched on the those documentaries a couple years back on MSNBC about girls who worked in the massage parlors, and they showed where they slept/were hidden away.

It was little more than a storage cupboard in a back room, maybe three feet high and hidden behind junk so the cops wouldn't see it. Sounds sexy, doesn't it? The thing that struck me were the women they removed from the establishment. The owners were Chinese or Korean, couldn't remember which, and most of the women were from Asia, but there was one blonde girl with them, Russian, I believe, and I wondered how she came to end up in that massage parlor.

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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/19/2014 3:20:26 PM   
FieryOpal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pg4g

Yeah, one of the main issues with brainwashing and mind control are around the fact that you can't have adequate consent if you're actually doing this for real. Once you really start mucking with someone's head like that, their willingness to back out isn't now "free". Very dangerous territory.

You make a very good point. Going by orgasmdenial12's definition of "slave" (vice submissive, and also littlewonder's statements), once consent is given then it's a done deal. I'm sure she would still reserve the right to walk away, and no actual slave has this option, no escape clause short of a literal escape. However, once you've agreed to plunge into living in a state of enslavement, which becomes a co-dependent relationship (they define one another), how consensually informed can you remain? The red flags that wave in front of my eyes are the potentials for abuse. Women especially are so relationship-oriented that they are more prone to tolerate a domestically abusive situation far longer than anyone in their right mind would.

I'll be the first to admit I'm no expert on such matters and am amenable to keeping an open mind on this subject.

[Edited for typo]

< Message edited by FieryOpal -- 2/19/2014 3:23:41 PM >


_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/19/2014 7:47:11 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I like the elephant analogy.

A while back (a year?) we had a great discussion on internal enslavement that discussed the pros and cons, much of which were based on past experiences.

If you didn't catch that thread it's well worth the (long) read.


Thanks.
All I could really find was this one>
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4518789
Is that it?

****ah I think you may have ment this one, looks good I will give it a read!
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4109378 ****

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 2/19/2014 7:51:47 PM >


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RE: Are you a Slave? - 2/19/2014 9:58:27 PM   
Greta75


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Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman
Who among us (MAN OR WOMAN) in their right mind would want to live as a sex slave, not to some hunky billionaire as depicted in 50 shades of grey, but in a run down lice infested room in some sleazy city where you are forced to service all comers.

Slavery is like arranged marriages. If got a shitty husband, your life will be hell, if you got someone nice, your life can be quite contented. If you have a good master, you wouldn't be put in a lice infested room, even with real slavery. Historically, while alot of slaves landed in the hands of cruel masters who didn't care properly for them because they didn't have a choice to choose their masters, but there were also owners who had a heart and made sure all the slaves they bought had clean accommodation, fair amount of work that isn't killing them physically, fed well, all the basics. I mean some slaves are even able to start families among themselves, that gotta be working for a pretty decent master.

So in bdsm slavery, the big difference is, the slave gets to choose his or her master, and they better make sure they pick a good one!

Real slavery, it's all up to your luck.


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