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RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/17/2014 7:58:29 PM

jlf1961

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

First, exactly where do you get that one juror was holding out for 1st degree murder?

It's my interpretation of the facts we have, Jlf. I've never claimed I have super-secret inside facts (it's not public knowlege??? WTF!), and have said from go that it makes more sense to me than a juror holding out for a complete acquittal. Think about it. No issue at all with the attempted murder counts, and a hung jury, after they were told the defendant could be tried again on the single most serious count

Granted, if I was right all the time, you fuckers would have to pay to read my shit, but I'm much smarter than Ken.

I was referring to the statements made by Bama.

I think the problem was with the stand your ground law, and the Florida self defense laws. However, considering what the police found in the vehicle, I wonder just what it was that the defendant thought was a weapon.

That does not eliminate the possibility of the teenagers having disposed of a weapon prior to police arriving.

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(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 101

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/17/2014 8:03:46 PM

BamaD

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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

First, exactly where do you get that one juror was holding out for 1st degree murder?

It's my interpretation of the facts we have, Jlf. I've never claimed I have super-secret inside facts (it's not public knowlege??? WTF!), and have said from go that it makes more sense to me than a juror holding out for a complete acquittal. Think about it. No issue at all with the attempted murder counts, and a hung jury, after they were told the defendant could be tried again on the single most serious count

Granted, if I was right all the time, you fuckers would have to pay to read my shit, but I'm much smarter than Ken.

I was referring to the statements made by Bama.

I think the problem was with the stand your ground law, and the Florida self defense laws. However, considering what the police found in the vehicle, I wonder just what it was that the defendant thought was a weapon.

That does not eliminate the possibility of the teenagers having disposed of a weapon prior to police arriving.

True but Dunn didn't report the incident till the next day and didn't even tell his gf about the alleged gun.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 102

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/18/2014 2:39:09 PM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
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quote:

I regret seeing this post. I keep trying to hope you are at least a little better than that, Cloudboy, and this race-baiting shit just makes that harder.

ALL MY GOD! A far left, Marxist-Leninist News Paper is also:

(1) Race Baiting the American Public and;

(2) Agreeing with Dom Ken's interpretation of the verdict!

What is wrong with American Journalism?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 103

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 2:51:31 AM

DomKen

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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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So it was 3 jurors who believed Dunn's SYG bullshit.
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/michael-dunn-juror-says-10-2-to-convict-of-first-degree-murder-became-9-3-in-heated-deliberation/

Now I'm sure certain conservatives will now assure us that Davis certainly did need killing and the fact that all the evidence saying Dunn lied about Davis having a gun and opening the car door is untrue.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 104

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 6:30:50 AM

cloudboy

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SYG enables an armed man to play offense whenever he "feels threatened."

This law needs to be rewritten, pure and simple.

Nice call ken, you nailed it.

----

In this case the murderer lied and simply made up an incredible, uncorraborated story about what happened.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 2/19/2014 6:32:39 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 105

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 6:49:43 AM

lovmuffin

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Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

SYG enables an armed man to play offense whenever he "feels threatened."

This law needs to be rewritten, pure and simple.

Nice call ken, you nailed it.

----

In this case the murderer lied and simply made up an incredible, uncorraborated story about what happened.

How would you rewrite it ? Don't ya think an idiot will try to use some other excuse ?

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(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 106

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 6:59:48 AM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Seems like 2 or particularly man should be slam dunk, why insist on the greater charge.
The only place I have heard that 2nd or man was on the table was from domken and he just
told me on another thread that something I saw didn't happen so I would like a better source.
Can you provide me with one.

I haven't really followed this case so I'm not as versed on it like the Zimmerman one was. But some who I know followed the case closely pointed out where the evidence was sufficient for reasonable doubt on the murder charge (the angle of the bullets proved that Davis had the car door open, while the other three passengers claimed it was child locked, etc).

And in Florida (as with most states), to prove murder, you have to disprove self defense beyond a reasonable doubt, and there were enough issues to show plenty of reasonable doubt

On the other hand though, there was a pause in the shooting where he continued firing as the vehicle was driving away, so even if Dunn was justified in shooting from thinking there was a weapon, that justification no longer existed while the vehicle was fleeing, hence being guilty on the attempted murder charges.

So, while my instincts tell me Dunn was likely lying about seeing a weapon and had no justification for firing, from what I know was showed at trial, I'd have to give a Not Guilty on the 1st degree charge, and Guilty on the attempted murder charges.

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 107

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 7:32:00 AM

cloudboy

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quote:

How would you rewrite it ? Don't ya think an idiot will try to use some other excuse ?

It is simply not a good idea to legitimize gun use in the arena of disputes and altercations. But, to answer your question, I don't know. It is common for laws to be rewritten after the holes and problems of them are exposed.

(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 108

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 7:36:26 AM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

How would you rewrite it ? Don't ya think an idiot will try to use some other excuse ?

It is simply not a good idea to legitimize gun use in the arena of disputes and altercations.

That's really not what the law does though; it legitmizes lethal force when in reasonable fear of death or serious injury. I really think that's how it should be.

In the Dunn case, the jury decided that firing a gun at a fleeing vehicle wasn't reasonable, and Dunn is going to prison for it; as it should be.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 109

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 8:00:22 AM

cloudboy

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It is irrational and disturbing that a murder conviction was not found. The victim was shot and killed.

Read the USA TODAY opinion piece above.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/02/17/michael-dunn-jordan-davis-stand-your-ground-dewayne-wickham/5532529/

Davis was the only one hit by the gunfire. And while he was pronounced dead, in a twisted way the jury's verdict in this controversial murder case calls into question that medical finding.

How else do you explain the 12-member jury's conclusion that Dunn was guilty of three counts of second-degree attempted murder for firing into the SUV and missing three of its occupants, but deadlocked on the question of whether he was guilty of murdering Davis?

Before you answer, consider this: The jury also found Dunn guilty of a charge of shooting into an occupied vehicle. But it was not able to convict Dunn of being responsible in any way for killing Davis. It failed to find him guilty of first-, second- or third-degree murder, or manslaughter.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 2/19/2014 8:05:03 AM >

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 110

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 8:17:41 AM

Raiikun

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Because, as just explained above, there's enough evidence to give reasonable doubt as to whether the initial shooting was justified (and if there's reasonable doubt, you can't convict), but continuing to fire after the car was fleeing means even if you were initially justified, that justification fled with the vehicle.

Given the evidence shown in court, were I on the jury, I would have given not guilty to the murder charge (even though I feel he's likely guilty, that's insufficient to convict), but guilty of the attempted murder charges.

I think the jury got this one just about as right as one could expect.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 111

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 8:26:13 AM

cloudboy

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O, you're right, the driver and his friends were black and playing their music too loudly. Yes, that certainly triggers a SYG defense. If the driver were white, it triggers a murder conviction.

According to your logic, if the driver did not flee after being shot, the shooter would have skated on attempted murder, too.

It hard to comport "attempted murder" -- YES -- Murder -- NO.

is not attempted murder where the victim remains alive, and murder where the victim perishes?

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 2/19/2014 8:34:52 AM >

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 112

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 8:28:24 AM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
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Strawman, of course. I made no such claim.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 113

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 8:33:35 AM

cloudboy

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Those are the facts. Where else could reasonable double come from?

Dunn’s Claim of Self-Defense Remains a Factor in Murder Charge

Dunn had claimed self-defense as justification for his use of force, based upon Florida statutes §776.012, §776.013, §782.02, amongst others, and as captured in Florida jury instruction 3.6(f) Justifiable use of deadly force.

Once Dunn had met his burden of production in getting self-defense submitted to the jury–which he managed to do only by taking the stand to testify on his own behalf–the State carried the burden of disproving self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.

Apparently at least one juror believed that the State had not met this burden with respect to the first count, the murder charge for the shooting death of Jordan Davis. This will remain an issue if the State elects to re-try Dunn on that charge.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 2/19/2014 8:46:43 AM >

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 114

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 8:41:55 AM

Raiikun

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quote:

is not attempted murder where the victim remains alive, and murder where the victim perishes?

Legally, only if self defense is disproven beyond a reasonable doubt. You really should brush up on the case a little, you kinda demonstrated already how much you don't know about it. (ie claiming the driver was shot, when it was Tommy Storns driving for example).

The angles of the bullet holes into the vehicle door indicated that Davis had his door open when the shots fired (while the other kids in the car claimed it was child locked, thus proving them to be lying about at least one thing in the event.) That and some other things (poor police work in checking for a discarded weapon) was enough to give reasonable doubt whether or not the initial shooting was justified.

So thus, logically it's very possible to have a reasonable doubt if Dunn really saw a shotgun and so was in fear of his life (remember, the danger need not be actual; the person just has to believe it is), but decide shooting at a fleeing vehicle wasn't justified. This would result in a Not Guilty on the murder charge, and Guilty on the attempted murders and firing into a vehicle.

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 115

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 8:53:01 AM

cloudboy

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What I see is a flimsy lie helps me skate on a murder charge in FLA.

Thanks for correcting me on some of the facts.

It seems prudent to me that the burden of self defense should be on the shooter, not the victim who is dead and cannot testify about what happened. FLA effectively places the burden of proof on the state.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 2/19/2014 8:54:41 AM >

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 116

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 9:00:17 AM

Raiikun

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Go live in Ohio then. (It's the one state in which the person using force has to prove with a preponderance of evidence that his use of force was justified.)

Meanwhile, our justice system is built largely on the belief that it is more important that innocence be protected than guilt be punished; and I believe that principle needs to be upheld no matter what the crime, from jaywalking to murder.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 117

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 9:03:37 AM

kdsub

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What I am going to say in this post has already been said so I am just adding my opinion and opinion it is.

I am a gun owner and have been for 50 years and I believe in the 2nd Amendment.

What I am against is the trend in America to go back to the wild west mentality where guns are needed for personal self defense when away from home.

It seems to me that tragedies like this thread are happening more often then incidents where personal concealed fire arms have stopped assaults and crimes. Otherwise the result of personal hand guns in the home…vehicles… and in the public are killing and maiming more people than they are saving. The power of a gun in the pocket enable confrontations that would not have happened without one.

I do understand people like Bama and TheHeretic who say we should not judge them by the nutcases that are in the news… I don’t… I respect them and I am sure they are responsible gun owners. I also believe most conceal and carry gun owners are responsible. I don’t take lightly a suggestion to take their conceal and carry rights away. But I think rational people can see where this trend it going… Too often people are hurt when even with a crime it would have been better to walk away and call the police rather than pull a gun and be the judge and executioner.

I do not believe unnecessary personal rights are more important than those that are killed and wounded for that right… Common sense should prevail.

Butch

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Post #: 118

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 9:09:25 AM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
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And that said:

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

What I see is a flimsy lie helps me skate on a murder charge in FLA.

I agree it's very possible it was a flimsy lie; but that's not what helped him skate on the murder charge (and considering Dunn is facing 75+ years in prison, it's arguable that he really skated anything).

The trouble in this case, is that the kids in the car lied about Davis opening his car door, and it was provable they lied. That tends to spring questions like "Were they lying to try and hide that Davis *was* getting out with a shotgun?" and it supported the Defense's claim that the kids had the time and motive to hide it. There were enough things like that to poke enough holes into the State's hypothesis of guilt to prevent them from proving murder beyond a reasonable doubt.

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 2/19/2014 9:10:34 AM >

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 119

RE: Jury couldn't agree on 1st-degree - 2/19/2014 10:24:30 AM

BamaD

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Joined: 2/27/2005
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FR

At no point does it say what the 3 were holding out for.
But of course we have to assume it was not guilty, otherwise we can't claim racism and rant against SYG.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 120

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