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RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 2:42:41 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

How about if we make a real school attainable and affordable for all no matter their economic standing. Then we could demand standards for those attending.

The only way America is going to compete on the world stage in the future is to have a well educated work force. But it will take a sacrifice from tax payers now. This dumb ass no tax crap is turning America into a McDonald's...Walmart service backwater society. Soon we will not even be able to afford protecting ourselves let alone be a player on the world scene.

Butch



How much do you want? How much would it take?

This country has been throwing tax dollars into the educational pit for 50 years. Where's the improvement?

While I agree that fixing any problem is going to cost something (since people don't work for free), why is the answer always more money instead of "spending the money we have more wisely "?

Where do we make a stand and say: the federal government has been fucking up our local schools for a half a century and it's time it stopped?

When do we nut up and stop being sheep?





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RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 2:43:45 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

DC spends more money than anyone else and few doing a worse job.
We don't want no taxes but we don't want to send good money after bad.
When they spend the money we give them better we will give them more.



And we even said the same thing, at the same time!

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RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 2:45:51 PM   
BamaD


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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

DC spends more money than anyone else and few doing a worse job.
We don't want no taxes but we don't want to send good money after bad.
When they spend the money we give them better we will give them more.



And we even said the same thing, at the same time!

Great minds?

< Message edited by BamaD -- 2/23/2014 2:51:00 PM >

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 2:55:20 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Bull... people have been under funding education for years... Getting voters to approve tax increases or state legislatures to properly fund under performing school districts is impossible in our " NO TAX... NO BIG GOVERNMENT" societies. And look where it has got us.

After WWI up until the mid 60's our schools were funded and led the world in education... we were leaders in industry and science... now almost half of polled Americans think the sun revolves around the earth.

We need to properly fund our public school systems and also make State Universities affordable or free to its citizens... Then we will be able to maintain our position as a leader in the world.

OR

We can bitch about taxes and become the next...Mexico... with Americans sneaking across the boarder into Canada for menial jobs.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/23/2014 3:01:28 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 3:01:10 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline 		What worked before could work again, but what we have today just isn't. It's all about feelings and self esteem. Get the electronics, designer clothes, and especially the iPhones out. Put the students in uniform clothes. It's the ABCs and the 1-2-3s. For highschoolers, it's a disgrace.

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“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

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RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 3:01:22 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		No bull.

A very quick search showed a result of NYC school system operating budget of 14 BILLION dollars in 2006.

UNDER funded? My Irish ass.

As Bama pointed out, every year for many years the spending in DC has led the nation (per student) and they almost always show the poorest results. MORE money isn't the fucking answer. The answer is out there and it will cost us money to implement but MORE spending on failed programs and ideas aren't going to get the job done.





_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 3:08:02 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		The results of our under funded system are evident...Maybe to properly train our teachers... equip our falling apart schools..and teach our children it may take 16 billion... Whatever it takes we must give... My father and his father sacrificed for me... time to stop complaining and fund our children and grand children.

I am not saying we don't have problems with the system... lets change them... but simply refusing to pay is stupid and suicide in today's competitive world.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/23/2014 3:15:03 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 3:14:20 PM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Or the Post simply made the whole thing up to attack a school they don't like.

Every version of it online says that the Post exposed this earlier this month.

Really? Earlier when? When did they expose it? Because from what I can tell, "earlier this month" to the post means yesterday at best.

Rather an odd thing to say, yes indeed. And no citations. No references.

I'm on the skeptical bandwagon too, that's for sure.

You're on a bandwagon for sure, but it isn't the one think. The article quoted was published February 23, and the exposé referred to was published February 9, which to all but a few special minds would qualify as earlier this month, and both were linked in the OP.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/23/2014 3:42:30 PM >

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RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 3:15:52 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		This is from 2011 but given some of the poor numbers, government agencies aren't in a huge hurry to release data.

Link

It compares the highest-spending school system (Camden, NJ) and the lowest (Alpine, Utah).

It is NOT about money. It's about socio-economics and culture.

It's about how children are raised and how easily they succumb to pier pressure (in many, many ways).

If more money is the answer, why does Camden, NJ ($23,000 per student) have a 40% graduation rate and Alpine, UT ($6,000 per student)have a 78% graduation rate?

(Come to think of it; why don't they have a graduation rate in the 90 percent range?)





< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 2/23/2014 3:26:28 PM >

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 3:17:52 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The results of our under funded system are evident...Maybe to properly train our teachers... equip our falling apart schools..and teach our children it may take 16 billion... Whatever it takes we must give... My father and his father sacrificed for me... time to stop complaining and fund our children and grand children.

I am not saying we don't have problems with the system... lets change them... but simply refusing to pay is stupid and suicide in today's competitive world.

Butch

And paying while the system is totally messed up will only get us more of the same.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 3:18:40 PM   
Yachtie


Posts: 3593
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
And paying while the system is totally messed up will only get us more of the same.


But so many will feel good about it.


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 3:21:20 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
And paying while the system is totally messed up will only get us more of the same.


But so many will feel good about it.


And so many more are willing to pour more money down the rat hole so they can say they tried.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 3:28:25 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Bull... people have been under funding education for years... Getting voters to approve tax increases or state legislatures to properly fund under performing school districts is impossible in our " NO TAX... NO BIG GOVERNMENT" societies. And look where it has got us.

After WWI up until the mid 60's our schools were funded and led the world in education... we were leaders in industry and science... now almost half of polled Americans think the sun revolves around the earth.

We need to properly fund our public school systems and also make State Universities affordable or free to its citizens... Then we will be able to maintain our position as a leader in the world.

OR

We can bitch about taxes and become the next...Mexico... with Americans sneaking across the boarder into Canada for menial jobs.

Butch


Every time the schools receive more money it goes to increased administration. Cut the administration by 50% and fire the lowest performing 10% of teachers and education will improve.


_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 3:28:56 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		Liberal pap. If 14 billion isn't enough, make it 16 billion. If that isn't enough, and it never is, make it 18 or maybe 20 billion.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 3:33:13 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Ok... how to change the culture...I know... NO TAXES... that will solve everything.

Here in St Louis we have two inner city failing school districts. The Missouri legislature has forced neighboring districts to take these failing children if they want to attend a system that is not failing... guess what... they are excelling in their new schools... Same culture at home but the schools are better with a higher tax base.

You gave one example but the vast majority of failing systems are underfunded. WHY... because the districts usually have poor property values which mean less money for schools... not because they are black... red... brown... or any other color or culture. Give them the money and good administrators and they will do just as good in NJ as Utah... even with vast differences in cost of living... We can pay a teacher $35,000 a year in St Louis and it is a decent wage... I wonder how good of a wage that would be say in Boston? It is silly to compare money without taking into consideration many factors that determine the quality of education in any one area.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 3:34:31 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		How much are they spending per student ?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 3:41:53 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		The surrounding districts spend more per student than the Normandy schools.. The state mandate is Normandy must pay the rate of the new district when kids go to better schools. They must also pay for transportation. The result is the Normandy District does not have enough money to fund the students that are staying and may need to lock their doors before the end of the school year. Otherwise they have no chance of improving their schools and scores without state money.

HERE is a recent link to the story.

< Message edited by kdsub -- 2/23/2014 3:43:14 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 3:44:13 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Every time the schools receive more money it goes to increased administration. Cut the administration by 50% and fire the lowest performing 10% of teachers and education will improve.



I agree with this, in spirit but we also have to find a way to convince our children just how important education is.

We have children in this country that see school as an interruption in their day of video games or TV or (in some cases) drug dealing or whatever else it is they wish to do.

When I was a wee skad, I hated (most of) school (I always liked foreign languages and history). I would much rather have been playing ball, riding my bicycle, going to Coney Island, watching Bugs Bunny ...

The list was endless but I had adults in my life that were allowed to parent and found a way to convince me that my going to school and passing my classes were not an option.

By 14 (or so), I started to like the idea of learning and I enjoyed a good portion of my classes. This made me less stand-offish towards my teachers and enabled me to connect with them and therefore, allowed them to engage me.

Unfortunately, my education was interrupted at 15 and I had to scramble to complete high school with my classmates ('82 skidoo!).

But changing my attitude started at "home". Almost all children are rebellious and will fall into a pit, if they are allowed to. We have parents that are afraid to parent. We have schools that try to be our children's' parents (I had a principal tell me that, once regarding my youngest son).

When I was raising my children, I had some of the same obstacles. I engaged them. I told them something along the lines of: "I know you think school sucks, right now and maybe it does but when I was younger, I felt the same way. Then, I found things that interested me, when I was older but still in school and I was off to the races. I promise it will be that way for you, too."

I told them all the funny stories about school (not always focusing on education). I was lucky in that two of my boys were very into sports. My eldest was a pretty good baseball player and my youngest probably could have played college football had he not chosen a different path.

I was able to engage them on that level and to show them how, in today's world, education links up with success in sports.

We need to find a way back to the days when parents were allowed to be the parents and were able to put their children on the right path.

I'm not sure I believe the educational system is broken. I think our moral fabric (as a nation) has a lot of holes in it and far too many children slip through those cracks.





_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 3:44:38 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		I don't know anything about the NYC or DC public school systems but I do know the Chicago schools.

180 day school years is ridiculously short. 220 to 240 is fairly standard in the rest of the developed world and should be here as well.
Getting rid of social promotion helped achievement.
Class size and student to teacher ratio is problematic. 1 teacher to 25 kids is great in a suburban school where the kids are all well fed and reasonably well behaved but in a school with a lot of kids with significant problems it just doesn't work.
Hungry kids really do not learn well. Don't shame the kids either just make a nutritious breakfast and lunch available to all.
Teacher preparation is inadequate. Too many teachers seem unable to actually teach the subjects they teach.

So more money spent right will fix some of the problems.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Helping the Poor and Underserved - 2/23/2014 3:49:20 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Here in St Louis we have two inner city failing school districts. The Missouri legislature has forced neighboring districts to take these failing children if they want to attend a system that is not failing... guess what... they are excelling in their new schools... Same culture at home but the schools are better with a higher tax base.



Could it be ... maybe ... just possibly that the children that opt to go to better schools (I assume their parents have to "petition" for them in some way?) have been convinced that education is important?

What is the percentage of the "bad school's" children that choose to go to the better schools? Why aren't ALL of the children wanting to go to better schools?

Could it be that the ones that don't go to the better schools don't want to go because they just don't give a flying fiddler's fuck about education?



ETA: Here's my view in a sound byte: Give more money to the schools that are performing well (and by this, I mean I want to see at least 80% grad rate) and have the other schools implement the same education plan or shut them down.





< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 2/23/2014 3:52:48 PM >

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 40
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