quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

As a matter of interest - and I'm somewhat unlikely to be in the same situation myself - but if faced with an angry, charging bear - which would be best, a gun or a crossbow? Assuming that the gun's bullet and the crossbow's bolt were to hit exactly the right target, that is . . . .

Depends,are you using exploding bolts or a ballista,and is the gun firing something as small as a 2.34 mm rimfire or something as large a 12.5x108 mm anti tank round?

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

As a matter of interest - and I'm somewhat unlikely to be in the same situation myself - but if faced with an angry, charging bear - which would be best, a gun or a crossbow? Assuming that the gun's bullet and the crossbow's bolt were to hit exactly the right target, that is . . . .

Depends,are you using exploding bolts or a ballista,and is the gun firing something as small as a 2.34 mm rimfire or something as large a 12.5x108 mm anti tank round?

You might as well have written that in hieroglyphics, Pyro, I'd have understood about as much of it . . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR

As a matter of interest - and I'm somewhat unlikely to be in the same situation myself - but if faced with an angry, charging bear - which would be best, a gun or a crossbow? Assuming that the gun's bullet and the crossbow's bolt were to hit exactly the right target, that is . . . .

Depends,are you using exploding bolts or a ballista,and is the gun firing something as small as a 2.34 mm rimfire or something as large a 12.5x108 mm anti tank round?

You might as well have written that in hieroglyphics, Pyro, I'd have understood about as much of it . . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR
Pyro abd MC,

Thanks for the info. Fascinating!

My secret I shall reveal : when I was a kid I wanted to grow up to be William Tell. ;-)

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ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

This video I just stumbled across is pertinent to this conversation
Gun Gripes Episode 82

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

quote:

ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

This video I just stumbled across is pertinent to this conversation
Gun Gripes Episode 82

Well done, Malcolm.

Another thought that might not be too obvious, a single action recoils in a very different way than a double action.

When fired, the single action rotates in the hand. This absorbs a lot of recoil. A double action has a bump that fits in the web of your thumb, and this transfers the recoil to your hand. To bring the single action weapon back into battery, the pinky and thumb are extended, then snapped back onto the grip. The pinky pushes at the extreme corner of the bottom of the grip while the thumb strokes the hammer. Done right, it takes no time at all, becomes unconscious and automatic.

A .45 long colt can be loaded to 1250 foot pounds. Suitable for Grizzly or Boar. If you fire one out of a double action, you should grip the weapon as if you thought it might just knock you out. And try not to miss. It's embarrassing when you miss when you knock yourself out in front of a charging bear. A single action can digest the same cartridge without making you think about whether you can hold onto it, much less whether you better. And you can shoot it again in half a second, if you have to.

Disclosure : The last bear I met got sent on his way with a flashlight and a little noise. This stuff works, most of the time.

There is another thing some folks don't know about revolvers. They are not just dangerous to the front.



It's not good to shoot out of the passenger window from the drivers seat. The passenger might do something reasonable. If he can still see.

Unsolicited endorsement : The Ruger Blackhawk introduced the transfer bar safety in 1973. If your gun doesn't have one of these, trade it for one that does. The New Model Blackhawk will not fire when dropped on it's hammer, because the transfer bar doesn't slide between the hammer and firing pin until the trigger is pressed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR
Pyro abd MC,

Thanks for the info. Fascinating!

My secret I shall reveal : when I was a kid I wanted to grow up to be William Tell. ;-)

Archery is an English specialty, you know. Takes some doing to get good with a longbow, I understand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

FR
Pyro abd MC,

Thanks for the info. Fascinating!

My secret I shall reveal : when I was a kid I wanted to grow up to be William Tell. ;-)

Archery is an English specialty, you know. Takes some doing to get good with a longbow, I understand.

It used to take a lifetime, apparently. Hence the law here - famously, never rescinded - that boys and men between certain ages must do a specified number of hours of archery practice per week. (A vicar recently invoked this law - see http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10300924 . The decree went out to attend the archery practice; intrigued townsfolk turned up to find a barbecue and live music.) Some while ago some archeologists unearthed the skeleton of an archer who'd been killed during the English Civil War. The bones of his right arm and shoulder, and his left wrist, were massively enlarged: he'd had decades of archery practice behind him to get that.

William Tell, though, was a crossbowman. Crossbows didn't need anything like the same training to use properly. Soldiers didn't even need to shoot so that the arrow had to travel in an arch (hence the word 'archery'). If you had a mob of even entirely untrained men and lots of money, you could put together an effective mercenary army very quickly.

quote:

Regarding the revolver pic, what's you're seeing is a severely gapped and mistimed revolver, probably caused by some idiot 'snapping' the cylinder closed like in the old gangster movies. Over time, that bends the crane, which holds the cylinder in place, allowing it to lock up slightly off-center. Erosion of the barrel throat occurs over time as the weapon is fired, and is corrected by shimming the cylinder to close up to the forcing cone (where the bullet enters the barrel from the cylinder). Anything more than .003" will do what that picture demonstrates.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

quote:

Regarding the revolver pic, what's you're seeing is a severely gapped and mistimed revolver, probably caused by some idiot 'snapping' the cylinder closed like in the old gangster movies. Over time, that bends the crane, which holds the cylinder in place, allowing it to lock up slightly off-center. Erosion of the barrel throat occurs over time as the weapon is fired, and is corrected by shimming the cylinder to close up to the forcing cone (where the bullet enters the barrel from the cylinder). Anything more than .003" will do what that picture demonstrates.

True. It is an extreme case as well as an extreme cartridge. But, it would be hard to show the effect using a smaller weapon in better condition.

To an extent, every revolver displays the same fault, because the gap between cylinder and barrel is part of the design. The first time the weapon is fired, it will jet gas to the side. Over time, wear, insult and damage will cause the gap to increase, throwing more gas, and the cylinder will drift out of alignment, shaving lead off the bullet and sending fragments sideways along with the gas. This also makes hitting anything more a matter of luck than skill, because the bullet is not launched cleanly.

A hammer is a pretty simple tool. And it isn't hard to break. A gun can do many of the same things, but it is more complicated. There is more to go wrong. A semi-automatic doesn't have the cylinder alignment problem, but it has its' own set of things to know and do, and not do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

quote:

Regarding the revolver pic, what's you're seeing is a severely gapped and mistimed revolver, probably caused by some idiot 'snapping' the cylinder closed like in the old gangster movies. Over time, that bends the crane, which holds the cylinder in place, allowing it to lock up slightly off-center. Erosion of the barrel throat occurs over time as the weapon is fired, and is corrected by shimming the cylinder to close up to the forcing cone (where the bullet enters the barrel from the cylinder). Anything more than .003" will do what that picture demonstrates.

True. It is an extreme case as well as an extreme cartridge. But, it would be hard to show the effect using a smaller weapon in better condition.

To an extent, every revolver displays the same fault, because the gap between cylinder and barrel is part of the design. The first time the weapon is fired, it will jet gas to the side. Over time, wear, insult and damage will cause the gap to increase, throwing more gas, and the cylinder will drift out of alignment, shaving lead off the bullet and sending fragments sideways along with the gas. This also makes hitting anything more a matter of luck than skill, because the bullet is not launched cleanly.

A hammer is a pretty simple tool. And it isn't hard to break. A gun can do many of the same things, but it is more complicated. There is more to go wrong. A semi-automatic doesn't have the cylinder alignment problem, but it has its' own set of things to know and do, and not do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

quote:

Regarding the revolver pic, what's you're seeing is a severely gapped and mistimed revolver, probably caused by some idiot 'snapping' the cylinder closed like in the old gangster movies. Over time, that bends the crane, which holds the cylinder in place, allowing it to lock up slightly off-center. Erosion of the barrel throat occurs over time as the weapon is fired, and is corrected by shimming the cylinder to close up to the forcing cone (where the bullet enters the barrel from the cylinder). Anything more than .003" will do what that picture demonstrates.

True. It is an extreme case as well as an extreme cartridge. But, it would be hard to show the effect using a smaller weapon in better condition.

To an extent, every revolver displays the same fault, because the gap between cylinder and barrel is part of the design. The first time the weapon is fired, it will jet gas to the side. Over time, wear, insult and damage will cause the gap to increase, throwing more gas, and the cylinder will drift out of alignment, shaving lead off the bullet and sending fragments sideways along with the gas. This also makes hitting anything more a matter of luck than skill, because the bullet is not launched cleanly.

A hammer is a pretty simple tool. And it isn't hard to break. A gun can do many of the same things, but it is more complicated. There is more to go wrong. A semi-automatic doesn't have the cylinder alignment problem, but it has its' own set of things to know and do, and not do.

Not all...russia got a few revolvers that bridge the gap.
cheapest and oldest of them being the nagant(pistol,not rifle)
you can also silence a nagant
you can see why the kgb liked them
a gun that makes no sound and leaves no pesky cartridges around

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

quote:

ORIGINAL: PyrotheClown

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

quote:

Regarding the revolver pic, what's you're seeing is a severely gapped and mistimed revolver, probably caused by some idiot 'snapping' the cylinder closed like in the old gangster movies. Over time, that bends the crane, which holds the cylinder in place, allowing it to lock up slightly off-center. Erosion of the barrel throat occurs over time as the weapon is fired, and is corrected by shimming the cylinder to close up to the forcing cone (where the bullet enters the barrel from the cylinder). Anything more than .003" will do what that picture demonstrates.

True. It is an extreme case as well as an extreme cartridge. But, it would be hard to show the effect using a smaller weapon in better condition.

To an extent, every revolver displays the same fault, because the gap between cylinder and barrel is part of the design. The first time the weapon is fired, it will jet gas to the side. Over time, wear, insult and damage will cause the gap to increase, throwing more gas, and the cylinder will drift out of alignment, shaving lead off the bullet and sending fragments sideways along with the gas. This also makes hitting anything more a matter of luck than skill, because the bullet is not launched cleanly.

A hammer is a pretty simple tool. And it isn't hard to break. A gun can do many of the same things, but it is more complicated. There is more to go wrong. A semi-automatic doesn't have the cylinder alignment problem, but it has its' own set of things to know and do, and not do.

Not all...russia got a few revolvers that bridge the gap.
cheapest and oldest of them being the nagant(pistol,not rifle)
you can also silence a nagant
you can see why the kgb liked them
a gun that makes no sound and leaves no pesky cartridges around

And it's the 'steam-punkiest' looking revolver of all time, to boot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

quote:

Regarding the revolver pic, what's you're seeing is a severely gapped and mistimed revolver, probably caused by some idiot 'snapping' the cylinder closed like in the old gangster movies. Over time, that bends the crane, which holds the cylinder in place, allowing it to lock up slightly off-center. Erosion of the barrel throat occurs over time as the weapon is fired, and is corrected by shimming the cylinder to close up to the forcing cone (where the bullet enters the barrel from the cylinder). Anything more than .003" will do what that picture demonstrates.

True. It is an extreme case as well as an extreme cartridge. But, it would be hard to show the effect using a smaller weapon in better condition.

To an extent, every revolver displays the same fault, because the gap between cylinder and barrel is part of the design. The first time the weapon is fired, it will jet gas to the side. Over time, wear, insult and damage will cause the gap to increase, throwing more gas, and the cylinder will drift out of alignment, shaving lead off the bullet and sending fragments sideways along with the gas. This also makes hitting anything more a matter of luck than skill, because the bullet is not launched cleanly.

A hammer is a pretty simple tool. And it isn't hard to break. A gun can do many of the same things, but it is more complicated. There is more to go wrong. A semi-automatic doesn't have the cylinder alignment problem, but it has its' own set of things to know and do, and not do.

Not necessarily. I've fired older revolvers with a considerable gap which displayed perfectly acceptable accuracy despite the shavings/unburnt powder jetting to the side. It's when the crane is bent from the 'wrist-snap' closing method that causes them to enter off-center. The weapon in the image appears to be a Ruger Redhawk/Super Redhawk, which is sized and chambered for .44 Magnum on up. Those big cartridges throw a lot of flame even in a tight gun, and one with even a minimal mistiming issue will show immense side-blast.

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ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

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ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

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ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

quote:

Regarding the revolver pic, what's you're seeing is a severely gapped and mistimed revolver, probably caused by some idiot 'snapping' the cylinder closed like in the old gangster movies. Over time, that bends the crane, which holds the cylinder in place, allowing it to lock up slightly off-center. Erosion of the barrel throat occurs over time as the weapon is fired, and is corrected by shimming the cylinder to close up to the forcing cone (where the bullet enters the barrel from the cylinder). Anything more than .003" will do what that picture demonstrates.

True. It is an extreme case as well as an extreme cartridge. But, it would be hard to show the effect using a smaller weapon in better condition.

To an extent, every revolver displays the same fault, because the gap between cylinder and barrel is part of the design. The first time the weapon is fired, it will jet gas to the side. Over time, wear, insult and damage will cause the gap to increase, throwing more gas, and the cylinder will drift out of alignment, shaving lead off the bullet and sending fragments sideways along with the gas. This also makes hitting anything more a matter of luck than skill, because the bullet is not launched cleanly.

A hammer is a pretty simple tool. And it isn't hard to break. A gun can do many of the same things, but it is more complicated. There is more to go wrong. A semi-automatic doesn't have the cylinder alignment problem, but it has its' own set of things to know and do, and not do.

Not necessarily. I've fired older revolvers with a considerable gap which displayed perfectly acceptable accuracy despite the shavings/unburnt powder jetting to the side. It's when the crane is bent from the 'wrist-snap' closing method that causes them to enter off-center. The weapon in the image appears to be a Ruger Redhawk/Super Redhawk, which is sized and chambered for .44 Magnum on up. Those big cartridges throw a lot of flame even in a tight gun, and one with even a minimal mistiming issue will show immense side-blast.

Hmmm... Well, of those guns I noticed shaving lead, and this is a very small sample, all of them sucked. I suppose I might have overlooked the problem in a weapon I liked.

So, in terms of what can go wrong, there is the gap between barrel and cylinder, there is the alignment of the cylinder axis with the centerline of the barrel, and there is the small matter of actually lining the chamber up behind the barrel every time the action rotates. Three different things.

On the other side of the coin, the automatic has its' share of issues. A weak round can fail to cycle, leaving you momentarily disarmed. A dud also requires two hands to deal with, and until you do, no gun. For some folks, the ability to just move along to the next round is worth a lot.

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ORIGINAL: MercTech

The comment about the bear reminds me... bear spray.

Have you ever seen tear gas in a projecting aerosol can just like the hornet spray? A 20 ft range would be useful. Might work well on angry mobs I would think.