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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 1:27:12 PM   
Lucylastic


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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 1:29:08 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Well good... then if he did not try to gain entry...why the fuck shoot him.

Illiterate, then.

(nice apology, by the way)

K.

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Profile   Post #: 322
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 1:29:45 PM   
kdsub


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lol... you are just too easy my friend

Butch

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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 1:33:53 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

lol... you are just too easy my friend

I'm really just a softie at heart.

K.


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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 2:21:53 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Well good... then if he did not try to gain entry...why the fuck shoot him.

Why attempt to open the door if he wasn't trying to gain entry? Did you think he was just going to open it to stand on the outside?

I'm sorry, Butch, but if you say yes to the latter question, you're reaching. That's a "maybe" gamble on a good day.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 3:19:27 PM   
BamaD


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FR

No account says he didn't turn on what lights he had.
No account says there where no street lights.
No account says it wasn't full moon.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 326
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 4:33:55 PM   
kdsub


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LadyPact..Rattling the doorknob is not trying to force your way in... calling the police would be appropriate however when someone does that at 4 in the morning... turning on the light...asking what they want.... telling them to leave... telling them you are calling the police... all are and would have been appropriate things to do... sneaking out the back and shooting someone is not.

Lets say it was a criminal... what would be the right thing to do?


Turn off interior lights
Call the police
Get your girlfriend in a locked room
Keep your gun at the ready with a clear view of the door
Wait for the police.

The last thing you should do is leave your girlfriend alone unprotected.
Go out into the dark without knowing where and how many or the intentions of the person or persons awaiting you.
Discharge a weapon multiple times in the dark without a good view of your target and where your neighbors could be in the line of fire.

I am not saying these were not an extraordinary set of circumstances only that this mans rash aggressive unnecessary actions put his girlfriend...himself... his neighbors at risk and killed a poor, sick, cold, scared, lost man seeking help.

These sort of tragedies are becoming relatively common because of the gun culture that is becoming prevalent over the last 20 years.



Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 327
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 4:35:14 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

LadyPact..Rattling the doorknob is not trying to force your way in... calling the police would be appropriate however when someone does that at 4 in the morning... turning on the light...asking what they want.... telling them to leave... telling them you are calling the police... all are and would have been appropriate things to do... sneaking out the back and shooting someone is not.

Lets say it was a criminal... what would be the right thing to do?


Turn off interior lights
Call the police
Get your girlfriend in a locked room
Keep your gun at the ready with a clear view of the door
Wait for the police.

The last thing you should do is leave your girlfriend alone unprotected.
Go out into the dark without knowing where and how many or the intentions of the person or persons awaiting you.
Discharge a weapon multiple times in the dark without a good view of your target and where your neighbors could be in the line of fire.

I am not saying these were not an extraordinary set of circumstances only that this mans rash aggressive unnecessary actions put his girlfriend...himself... his neighbors at risk and killed a poor, sick, cold, scared, lost man seeking help.

These sort of tragedies are becoming relatively common because of the gun culture that is becoming prevalent over the last 20 years.



Butch

Whatever it takes to dismiss self defense.
Not being a good tactician doesn't make you a criminal.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 3/6/2014 4:36:33 PM >


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 328
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 4:36:48 PM   
MercTech


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Ok, time to quit biting the tongue and express my thoughts.

If an unknown person with an item in their hand that could be used as a weapon stalked towards a police officer refusing to stop when ordered or respond to questions; the officer would use extreme force to render that person unable to hurt anyone. And, the investigation would have exonerated the police officer.
It would not have mattered if there were lights on. It would not matter if it were in the dark or noonday sun. It is tragic but the description of that poor Alzheimer's sufferer fits a classic description of assault with intent of battery.
Also consider the background of the shooter. A military man is trained to deal with threats; not stay to hidden and wait for someone else to deal with the situation. His response to the situation was quite consistent with physical security training.
A> He called for backup (911)
B> He evaluated the situation (went to see who was there)
C> He attempted to resolve the situation (repeatedly called for the man to stop approaching and identify himself)
D> He applied force to stop himself from being assaulted when the unknown man stalked towards him with a potential weapon in hand.
You can argue, in hindsight, that a gunshot was excessive force. A kitchen knife to the gut or a cricket bat to the side of the head would have had the same result without using an inflammatory instrument such as a firearm but placed the fellow at more risk to himself.

The shooting of an Alzheimer's sufferer was tragic but not senseless.


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 329
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 4:38:34 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Ok, time to quit biting the tongue and express my thoughts.

If an unknown person with an item in their hand that could be used as a weapon stalked towards a police officer refusing to stop when ordered or respond to questions; the officer would use extreme force to render that person unable to hurt anyone. And, the investigation would have exonerated the police officer.
It would not have mattered if there were lights on. It would not matter if it were in the dark or noonday sun. It is tragic but the description of that poor Alzheimer's sufferer fits a classic description of assault with intent of battery.
Also consider the background of the shooter. A military man is trained to deal with threats; not stay to hidden and wait for someone else to deal with the situation. His response to the situation was quite consistent with physical security training.
A> He called for backup (911)
B> He evaluated the situation (went to see who was there)
C> He attempted to resolve the situation (repeatedly called for the man to stop approaching and identify himself)
D> He applied force to stop himself from being assaulted when the unknown man stalked towards him with a potential weapon in hand.
You can argue, in hindsight, that a gunshot was excessive force. A kitchen knife to the gut or a cricket bat to the side of the head would have had the same result without using an inflammatory instrument such as a firearm but placed the fellow at more risk to himself.

The shooting of an Alzheimer's sufferer was tragic but not senseless.



Home run.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 330
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 4:52:14 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Ok, time to quit biting the tongue and express my thoughts.

If an unknown person with an item in their hand that could be used as a weapon stalked towards a police officer refusing to stop when ordered or respond to questions; the officer would use extreme force to render that person unable to hurt anyone. And, the investigation would have exonerated the police officer.
It would not have mattered if there were lights on. It would not matter if it were in the dark or noonday sun. It is tragic but the description of that poor Alzheimer's sufferer fits a classic description of assault with intent of battery.
Also consider the background of the shooter. A military man is trained to deal with threats; not stay to hidden and wait for someone else to deal with the situation. His response to the situation was quite consistent with physical security training.
A> He called for backup (911)
B> He evaluated the situation (went to see who was there)
C> He attempted to resolve the situation (repeatedly called for the man to stop approaching and identify himself)
D> He applied force to stop himself from being assaulted when the unknown man stalked towards him with a potential weapon in hand.
You can argue, in hindsight, that a gunshot was excessive force. A kitchen knife to the gut or a cricket bat to the side of the head would have had the same result without using an inflammatory instrument such as a firearm but placed the fellow at more risk to himself.

The shooting of an Alzheimer's sufferer was tragic but not senseless.



The police officer would be fired and be facing charges.
A: failure to identify a person in distress
B: Use of force when it was uncalled for
C: such force resulted in death

That's not just a homicide charge for the police officer it is a huge civil suit against the force.

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 331
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 5:05:31 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline


Take a deep breath and keep repeating the word "Earth".

Trooper opens fire on minivan full of kids; faces no charges
Unarmed father beaten to death outside movie theater while trying to settle family dispute
Innocent mother shot dead answering door for police

K.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 332
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 5:19:50 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

No account says he didn't turn on what lights he had.
No account says there where no street lights.
No account says it wasn't full moon.

Are there accounts from anyone but Hendrix?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 333
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 5:23:35 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

No account says he didn't turn on what lights he had.
No account says there where no street lights.
No account says it wasn't full moon.

Are there accounts from anyone but Hendrix?


Only on here.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 334
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 5:28:16 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

FR

No account says he didn't turn on what lights he had.
No account says there where no street lights.
No account says it wasn't full moon.

Are there accounts from anyone but Hendrix?

Who else is there to give an account?
This is in response to the assumption that it was pitch black.
That issue was not addressed by any account including the police assessment.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 335
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 5:34:59 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

A> He called for backup (911)


MercTech... you should have stopped here... He did not give them a chance to get there...anything after this was unwise and look at the result.

There was no immediate need to go past this point... the man was not putting shoulder to the door and trying to break in so why not wait for the police? Eight minutes is not too long to wait.

It's only eight minutes out of his life...an eternity for the man innocent man he killed...and you still say his death was not senseless?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/6/2014 5:44:12 PM >


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to MercTech)
Profile   Post #: 336
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 5:40:36 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata



Take a deep breath and keep repeating the word "Earth".

Trooper opens fire on minivan full of kids; faces no charges


back in the real world
http://news.yahoo.com/mexico-officer-van-shooting-fired-002423553.html

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 337
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 5:47:10 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Take a deep breath and keep repeating the word "Earth".

Trooper opens fire on minivan full of kids; faces no charges

back in the real world
http://news.yahoo.com/mexico-officer-van-shooting-fired-002423553.html

Oh noes! Fired? Just for shooting into a van full of kids? Well damn, that'll teach him. But getting back to the real world here on Earth, which word in "faces no charges" didn't you understand?

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/6/2014 5:52:41 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 338
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 5:47:25 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Who else is there to give an account?

No one, of course.

So everything we think we we know about the shooting comes from a single, subjective source whose fate hung on how he told the story.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 339
RE: Senseless shooting: Gunman kills man with Alzheimer... - 3/6/2014 6:13:16 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
LadyPact..Rattling the doorknob is not trying to force your way in... calling the police would be appropriate however when someone does that at 4 in the morning... turning on the light...asking what they want.... telling them to leave... telling them you are calling the police... all are and would have been appropriate things to do... sneaking out the back and shooting someone is not.

Lets say it was a criminal... what would be the right thing to do?


Turn off interior lights
Call the police
Get your girlfriend in a locked room
Keep your gun at the ready with a clear view of the door
Wait for the police.

The last thing you should do is leave your girlfriend alone unprotected.
Go out into the dark without knowing where and how many or the intentions of the person or persons awaiting you.
Discharge a weapon multiple times in the dark without a good view of your target and where your neighbors could be in the line of fire.

I am not saying these were not an extraordinary set of circumstances only that this mans rash aggressive unnecessary actions put his girlfriend...himself... his neighbors at risk and killed a poor, sick, cold, scared, lost man seeking help.

These sort of tragedies are becoming relatively common because of the gun culture that is becoming prevalent over the last 20 years.



Butch

Hi Butch. How have you been?

I think we each bring our own things to the table on this subject. I just want you to know that I definitely understand that, even if you don't understand Mine.

It's unfortunate that we don't agree. This honestly isn't an attempt to argue. Some of what you are saying above, we're not completely opposite. Some, we are.

Rattling the doorknob. The doorknob has a purpose. No matter what term gets used for it, rattling, jiggling, turning...... The thing is made to open the door. I might be meaner than you, but I'm not going to be feeling great that anybody is doing that in the middle of the night.

calling the police They did do that.

turning on the light I don't know why they didn't do that. The only logical thing that I can come up with for it is that, potentially, the light didn't work. (That's a guess. Not something I know.)

asking what they want
I can't promise I'd do this. Unlike Hendrix, I have a female voice.

telling them to leave I think whatever was said the three times the man was warned before shots were fired would be in this category.

telling them you are calling the police Unknown. Could have happened. Might have not.


There's a lot of things that aren't covered in the links. I can only speak from My own perspective. I wish I knew things about the layout of the man's house. I also wish I knew whether the guy was trying to look out through a peephole because I stand 5'2" and usually, they are too high for Me to see through. If it's a two entrance home, hiding in a spot, hoping the cops get there before an intruder got in..... I don't know about that. My chances might be better going outside because I know where the noises came from at the door. The person on the other side of the door wouldn't be looking for Me outside.

Some of the responses on the thread (not saying yours) have been about people making comments that were related to fear. Almost like it's some kind of shameful thing. I may not be proud of the fact that somebody at the door at 4:00 AM would at least startle Me, and messing with the doorknob in any way would probably down right scare Me, but I'm not ashamed of it. Had I been to the war in Iraq, like Hendrix had, I'd even be willing to bet that fear had kept Me alive at some points.

It was extraordinary circumstances and I'm sorry that the man is dead. I feel for the old woman who couldn't manage to keep her sick husband in the house. It must be horrible for her. I just know that My first thought isn't going to be that the highly unlikely circumstances would be the first thing to cross My mind.





_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 340
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