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Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 10:05:44 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

From The Atlantic:

quote:

NATIONAL HARBOR, Md.—Christopher Beach was trying to defend keeping marijuana illegal to a roomful of conservatives, and it was not going well.

When Beach insisted the drug war has not been a complete failure, laughter rippled through the crowd.

When he said governments sometimes have to protect people from themselves, there were groans and boos.
One after another, audience members stood to quibble with his statistics and accuse him of bad faith. As the discussion drew to a close with yet another hostile blast in his direction, Beach mumbled into his microphone, "This is just getting more fun."

Beach's panel at the Conservative Political Action Conference, titled "Rocky Mountain High: Does Legalized Pot Mean Society's Going Up In Smoke?," was ostensibly a debate. I attended expecting to find conservatives divided on the question, which seems to pit Republican cultural conservatism against the party's ascendant libertarian strain.

But the discussion—which pitted Beach, a producer for the Morning in America radio show hosted by former Education Secretary Bill Bennett, against Mary Katharine Ham, a conservative blogger and Fox News contributor—turned out to be surprisingly one-sided.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/03/the-republican-partys-pot-dilemma/284289/

I've been an active proponent of drug legalization a lot longer than my voter registration has said Republican. If there is anything that could turn me into a single-issue voter, this would be it. How the federal government will proceed with the legalizing states is the next giant hurdle to ending the horrific failed program of prohibition.

My gut says the party is going to get it wrong for 2016. My question will be whether the candidate will get it right anyway.

I'll also be watching the Democrat candidate. I certainly expect to hear the right noises from them, but there are a lot of government jobs on the line here. Obama was going to close Gitmo in '08, and the House Democrats were going to end that pesky war in Iraq in 2006. Hearing them say it, and believing they'll do it are very different things.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

Post #: 1

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 10:51:25 AM

DaNewAgeViking

Posts: 1009
Joined: 4/29/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Obama was going to close Gitmo in '08, and the House Democrats were going to end that pesky war in Iraq in 2006. Hearing them say it, and believing they'll do it are very different things.

Yes, keep in mind that Obama tried to close Gitmo - and the Radicals blocked him. And he tried to end the war in Iraq - but the Radicals fought him tooth and nail. Best laid plans of mice and well-meaning Democrats, I suppose.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 2

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 11:25:15 AM

lovmuffin

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline

I'm in favor of drug legalization, at least pot, opiates, cocane and other natural plants and extracts. There is a billions of dollars federal, state and local government industry built on prohabition and there will be a whole lot of screaming and kicking as we start getting closer to legalization. I think we're close to getting pot legalized but even that has a ways to go. It will be more than ten or twenty years for the rest of it if ever.

Few other crimes require domestic law enforcement covert operations, breeds corruption or punishes the so called victim (drug users).

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to DaNewAgeViking)

Post #: 3

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 11:42:17 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I'm in favor of drug legalization, at least pot, opiates, cocane and other natural plants and extracts. There is a billions of dollars federal, state and local government industry built on prohabition and there will be a whole lot of screaming and kicking as we start getting closer to legalization. I think we're close to getting pot legalized but even that has a ways to go. It will be more than ten or twenty years for the rest of it if ever.

Few other crimes require domestic law enforcement covert operations, breeds corruption or punishes the so called victim (drug users).

I'm fine with pot. Opiates are plain bad shit and cocaine is borderline at best.

(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 4

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 11:58:59 AM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking

Yes, keep in mind that Obama tried to close Gitmo - and the Radicals blocked him. And he tried to end the war in Iraq - but the Radicals fought him tooth and nail. Best laid plans of mice and well-meaning Democrats, I suppose.

I realize that this may come as a shock, DNAV, but incompetence isn't an excuse, it's still a fucking FAIL. He made the promise, probably meant it, but didn't have the skills to get it done.

A potential Democrat President coming out of the 2016 election is going to have to be able to overcome efforts to block change as well.

Even with a majority of American now saying we should legalize, there will be significant resistance to legalization from all those sucking the fat tit of the failed status quo, and many of them are in the Democrat base.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to DaNewAgeViking)

Post #: 5

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 12:09:25 PM

Tkman117

Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking

Yes, keep in mind that Obama tried to close Gitmo - and the Radicals blocked him. And he tried to end the war in Iraq - but the Radicals fought him tooth and nail. Best laid plans of mice and well-meaning Democrats, I suppose.

I realize that this may come as a shock, DNAV, but incompetence isn't an excuse, it's still a fucking FAIL. He made the promise, probably meant it, but didn't have the skills to get it done.

Didn't have the skills? You mean catering to the right wing demands? You do remember what happened the last time the conservatives didn't get what they wanted right? They shut down your government. If you're saying incompetence isn't an excuse, then how about people who oppose the president as a good excuse? You got to realize that ya, Obama made a lot of promises, some of which he tried to follow through on but was stopped short by a republican dominated congress. I'm not saying Obama is a great president and that he isn't guilty for breaking promises, all politicians do that (not to mention I generally dislike him over many policies, drones being one of them). But you got to look at the big picture and look at the CAUSES for why Obama hasn't kept his promises. Does he not care? Did he lie? Or has he tried to do things but has been impeded by his political opponents? Chances are there are examples of all three, but you got to look at it by a case by case issue and not generalize.

< Message edited by Tkman117 -- 3/8/2014 12:10:30 PM >

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 6

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 12:16:46 PM

lovmuffin

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

I'm in favor of drug legalization, at least pot, opiates, cocane and other natural plants and extracts. There is a billions of dollars federal, state and local government industry built on prohabition and there will be a whole lot of screaming and kicking as we start getting closer to legalization. I think we're close to getting pot legalized but even that has a ways to go. It will be more than ten or twenty years for the rest of it if ever.

Few other crimes require domestic law enforcement covert operations, breeds corruption or punishes the so called victim (drug users).

I'm fine with pot. Opiates are plain bad shit and cocaine is borderline at best.

It's all bad shit. That hasn't stopped anyone from using or from getting the shit smuggled in. The drug war has brought us billions of dollars going down the toilet, militarized police forces, has contributed in bringing us closer to a police state and the erosion of our constitutional rights.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 7

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 12:29:52 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

The war on drugs has been a failure... not because the war is impossible to win...but only we don't have the backbone to fight it properly.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 8

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 12:32:34 PM

Aylee

Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking

Yes, keep in mind that Obama tried to close Gitmo - and the Radicals blocked him. And he tried to end the war in Iraq - but the Radicals fought him tooth and nail. Best laid plans of mice and well-meaning Democrats, I suppose.

I realize that this may come as a shock, DNAV, but incompetence isn't an excuse, it's still a fucking FAIL. He made the promise, probably meant it, but didn't have the skills to get it done.

Didn't have the skills? You mean catering to the right wing demands? You do remember what happened the last time the conservatives didn't get what they wanted right? They shut down your government. If you're saying incompetence isn't an excuse, then how about people who oppose the president as a good excuse? You got to realize that ya, Obama made a lot of promises, some of which he tried to follow through on but was stopped short by a republican dominated congress. I'm not saying Obama is a great president and that he isn't guilty for breaking promises, all politicians do that (not to mention I generally dislike him over many policies, drones being one of them). But you got to look at the big picture and look at the CAUSES for why Obama hasn't kept his promises. Does he not care? Did he lie? Or has he tried to do things but has been impeded by his political opponents? Chances are there are examples of all three, but you got to look at it by a case by case issue and not generalize.

Are you SURE about that?

Because history seems to record that there was a Democratic majority in both the Senate and the House.

< Message edited by Aylee -- 3/8/2014 1:06:45 PM >

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Tkman117)

Post #: 9

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 12:33:06 PM

lovmuffin

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The war on drugs has been a failure... not because the war is impossible to win...but only we don't have the backbone to fight it properly.

Butch

Ok, what would you suggest ? I'm all ears.

_____________________________

"Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank. Give a man a bank and he can rob the world." Unknown

"Long hair, short hair—what's the difference once the head's blowed off." - Farmer Yassir

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 10

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 12:39:55 PM

Tkman117

Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The war on drugs has been a failure... not because the war is impossible to win...but only we don't have the backbone to fight it properly.

Butch

So what more backbone does the war on drugs need? More harsh sentences for possession? Or a full scale invasion of countries which don't have a strong hold over their drug problems?

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 11

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 12:42:43 PM

Tkman117

Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking

Yes, keep in mind that Obama tried to close Gitmo - and the Radicals blocked him. And he tried to end the war in Iraq - but the Radicals fought him tooth and nail. Best laid plans of mice and well-meaning Democrats, I suppose.

I realize that this may come as a shock, DNAV, but incompetence isn't an excuse, it's still a fucking FAIL. He made the promise, probably meant it, but didn't have the skills to get it done.

Didn't have the skills? You mean catering to the right wing demands? You do remember what happened the last time the conservatives didn't get what they wanted right? They shut down your government. If you're saying incompetence isn't an excuse, then how about people who oppose the president as a good excuse? You got to realize that ya, Obama made a lot of promises, some of which he tried to follow through on but was stopped short by a republican dominated congress. I'm not saying Obama is a great president and that he isn't guilty for breaking promises, all politicians do that (not to mention I generally dislike him over many policies, drones being one of them). But you got to look at the big picture and look at the CAUSES for why Obama hasn't kept his promises. Does he not care? Did he lie? Or has he tried to do things but has been impeded by his political opponents? Chances are there are examples of all three, but you got to look at it by a case by case issue and not generalize.

Are you SURE about that?

Because history seems to record that there was a Democratic majority in both rity in bothe the Senate and the House.

...um, first off you should probably work on your grammar. Second there is and has been a republican majority during Obama's congress, not to mention it has been the least active congress in a long time and has obstructed Obama's efforts at almost every opportunity. Could you quote your historical sources please?

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 12

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 12:44:12 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I'll be glad to

As a father of a drug addicted daughter that has destroyed her life... I would sentence every drug abuser to mandatory treatment... no jail.

Then I would try... and if convicted execute every dealer, producer, and supplier on up....no exceptions

If foreign nations refused or were unable to stop the growing of drugs imported into the US I would destroy the crops and production and refinement centers...no exceptions.

That would stop the drugs in America within a year. I don't care if they sell drugs anywhere else in the world.

I am not talking about the particular drug of this thread... but the drug war for all illegal drugs.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/8/2014 12:57:30 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 13

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 12:55:12 PM

Tkman117

Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'll be glad to

As a father of a drug addicted daughter that has destroyed her life... I would sentence every drug abuser to mandatory treatment... no jail.

Then I would try... and if convicted execute every dealer, producer, and supplier on up....no exceptions

If foreign nations refused or were unable to stop the growing of drugs I would destroy the crops and production and refinement centers...no exceptions.

That would stop the drugs in America within a year. I don't care if they sell drugs anywhere else in the world.

I am not talking about the particular drug of this thread... but the drug war for all illegal drugs.

Butch

It's this kind of mentality which has and does cause more harm then good. I am sorry about your daughter, but she does not represent the majority of people, and as a free individual she had a choice about what she put into her body, the repercussions are ones she will have to deal with in her own way and with her own loved ones providing support. Pot, like alcohol, can be enjoyed recreationally. There are no addictive properties in pot which your body feels like it needs, it's mental weakness. I tried pot for the first time last week when I made it into brownies. It was great, but I haven't felt a desire to have more or to try something more powerful since the first two brownies I ate.

I understand the idea of trying to stop these problems at the source, but this is a problem which, like guns, abortion or any issue, can't be stopped at the source. It's impossible. I understand that you can't just take it all away and expect things to improve. For as long as people exist they will want to get high, kill, and do whatever they want. you can't control the actions of people. America is meant to be the land of the free, so people should be free to choose what they put into their bodies. Not to mention that if you're saying all "illegal drugs" then why wouldn't tobacco or alcohol be included? They cause more problems than weed in many cases. Alcohol poisoning, cancer, etc.

You're peddling an old and expired world view and we have found over time that it's not the solution. Things are changing, and not in the way you want, but in the way the world wants.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 14

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 12:57:58 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

No it is the kind of mentality that works

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Tkman117)

Post #: 15

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 1:01:04 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

If the majority of citizens want to make pot legal... then I've no problem with that. Alcohol is legal...I've no problem with that. Whatever the majority wants to make legal...I've no problem with that... What YOU want to have outside the law I have a problem with.

If you raise a petition... get a vote...have a particular drug legalized... go to it...I've no problem with that... I am just presenting a sure fire way to stop those drugs the majority deem harmful and illegal.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/8/2014 1:04:43 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Tkman117)

Post #: 16

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 1:01:42 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

This is a thread about current US domestic policy changes, TK. My President's failure to deliver on his promise is a fact, and an example of why I don't put much faith in the promises of politicians. It isn't an invitation for Obamabots and cheerleaders to rattle off their litany of excuses.

Let's see if we can get you a primer and booster seat for the real topic.

Marijuana legalization isn't a full-throated partisan issue. A higher percentage of Republicans than Democrats are opposed, but both parties are split on it, and the opposed Democrats are a serious power in the base.

The article at the link discusses the split on the Republican side. The more libertarian sorts, like myself, support ending this stupid policy. The fundy wing would ban dancing and bikinis if they could, and will never come around. In the middle are minds that can be reached by talking about cutting off the flow of drug money to the gangs, about expanded economic opportunities, and about cutting wasteful spending.

The Democrats will enjoy the support of the foolish (and stoned) youngsters who won't get cynical until they personally get burned on an issue they believed in. The Republicans will have the ingrained conservative resistance to change. If we can bring up the level of Republican support a little bit higher though, out of the 30's and into the 40's, I think that will get my country onto a better track.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Tkman117)

Post #: 17

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 1:09:15 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

...um, first off you should probably work on your grammar. Second there is and has been a republican majority during Obama's congress, not to mention it has been the least active congress in a long time and has obstructed Obama's efforts at almost every opportunity. Could you quote your historical sources please?

Could you share with us your credentials to teach US Civics to people who grew up on it? From what I've seen, you couldn't manage a chorus of Schoolhouse Rock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EfnNUt_nwY

Let us know when you have that one down, and we'll introduce you to Bill.

Drug legalization. Get on topic or run along.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Tkman117)

Post #: 18

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 1:14:06 PM

Tkman117

Posts: 1353
Joined: 5/21/2012
Status: offline

The only way the republican support will get any higher is if they stop catering to rich white men and stop this extremist BS they've been spouting for the last several years. I don't see conservatives as bad and I find myself on the edge of many liberal/conservative arguments when they're logical and moderate, but as of late I have not seen that kind of moderate and logical thinking from the cons.

There is a fine balancing act that needs to be played by both cons and libs, but lately the cons have thrown that balancing act WAY out of whack, even dragging the libs down close to where the cons were before they went extreme.

The president isn't the only part of government, and to say that SOME, not all, of his promises were unaffected by the extremism of the opposition is foolish and blind. And to say that I'm cheerleading for Obama is a pathetic jab and ignores what I said in my previous message, where I essentially explained that he isn't immune to being an asshole and going back on promises. But I digress and would be more than willing to get back on topic if this deviated too much.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 19

RE: Republicans and Legal Pot - 3/8/2014 1:14:12 PM

Aylee

Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking

Yes, keep in mind that Obama tried to close Gitmo - and the Radicals blocked him. And he tried to end the war in Iraq - but the Radicals fought him tooth and nail. Best laid plans of mice and well-meaning Democrats, I suppose.

I realize that this may come as a shock, DNAV, but incompetence isn't an excuse, it's still a fucking FAIL. He made the promise, probably meant it, but didn't have the skills to get it done.

Didn't have the skills? You mean catering to the right wing demands? You do remember what happened the last time the conservatives didn't get what they wanted right? They shut down your government. If you're saying incompetence isn't an excuse, then how about people who oppose the president as a good excuse? You got to realize that ya, Obama made a lot of promises, some of which he tried to follow through on but was stopped short by a republican dominated congress. I'm not saying Obama is a great president and that he isn't guilty for breaking promises, all politicians do that (not to mention I generally dislike him over many policies, drones being one of them). But you got to look at the big picture and look at the CAUSES for why Obama hasn't kept his promises. Does he not care? Did he lie? Or has he tried to do things but has been impeded by his political opponents? Chances are there are examples of all three, but you got to look at it by a case by case issue and not generalize.

Are you SURE about that?

Because history seems to record that there was a Democratic majority in both the Senate and the House.

...um, first off you should probably work on your grammar. Second there is and has been a republican majority during Obama's congress, not to mention it has been the least active congress in a long time and has obstructed Obama's efforts at almost every opportunity. Could you quote your historical sources please?

111th Congress (6 January 2009, to 3 January 2011)

Senate: 55 Democrats; 41 Republicans; 2 Independents - Illinois and Minnesota "vacant"
House: 256 Democrats; 175 Republicans

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Tkman117)

Post #: 20

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