quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
It's all bad shit. That hasn't stopped anyone from using or from getting the shit smuggled in. The drug war has brought us billions of dollars going down the toilet, militarized police forces, has contributed in bringing us closer to a police state and the erosion of our constitutional rights.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


I'm fine with pot. Opiates are plain bad shit and cocaine is borderline at best.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

From The Atlantic:

quote:

NATIONAL HARBOR, Md.—Christopher Beach was trying to defend keeping marijuana illegal to a roomful of conservatives, and it was not going well.

When Beach insisted the drug war has not been a complete failure, laughter rippled through the crowd.

When he said governments sometimes have to protect people from themselves, there were groans and boos.
One after another, audience members stood to quibble with his statistics and accuse him of bad faith. As the discussion drew to a close with yet another hostile blast in his direction, Beach mumbled into his microphone, "This is just getting more fun."

Beach's panel at the Conservative Political Action Conference, titled "Rocky Mountain High: Does Legalized Pot Mean Society's Going Up In Smoke?," was ostensibly a debate. I attended expecting to find conservatives divided on the question, which seems to pit Republican cultural conservatism against the party's ascendant libertarian strain.

But the discussion—which pitted Beach, a producer for the Morning in America radio show hosted by former Education Secretary Bill Bennett, against Mary Katharine Ham, a conservative blogger and Fox News contributor—turned out to be surprisingly one-sided.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/03/the-republican-partys-pot-dilemma/284289/


I've been an active proponent of drug legalization a lot longer than my voter registration has said Republican. If there is anything that could turn me into a single-issue voter, this would be it. How the federal government will proceed with the legalizing states is the next giant hurdle to ending the horrific failed program of prohibition.

My gut says the party is going to get it wrong for 2016. My question will be whether the candidate will get it right anyway.

I'll also be watching the Democrat candidate. I certainly expect to hear the right noises from them, but there are a lot of government jobs on the line here. Obama was going to close Gitmo in '08, and the House Democrats were going to end that pesky war in Iraq in 2006. Hearing them say it, and believing they'll do it are very different things.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LorraineCA

I was wondering what your opinion is about the belief that Marijuana is a "Gateway" or "Stepping Stone" Drug?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
Okay, so you're quoting the last congress, gotcha. A congress which enacted a lot of different legislation, more so than this one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/111th_United_States_Congress#Major_legislation
Should Obama have gone through on ALL of his promises in that time span? Thats 2 years, and I'm not sure how fast you think a congress can pump out legislation but it's not quick. Compared to the 4 years of obstructionist congress, the connection is thin, but of you have a stronger explanation please go ahead. But also remember we're getting off topic, don't want heretic to get annoyed at us

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

What promises did he actually make good on?

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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What promises did he actually make good on?

Well, he got re-elected. I guess that's an accomplishment.

quote:

“Look, I’m at the start of my administration. One nice thing about the situation I find myself in is that I will be held accountable. You know, I’ve got four years,” Obama told The Today Show’s Matt Lauer on February 1, 2009.

“A year from now I think people are going to see that we’re starting to make some progress,” said Obama. ”But there’s still going to be some pain out there. If I don’t have this done in three years, then there’s going to be a one-term proposition.”

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
I still find it quite interesting that recreational drug use didn't become a real problem until after the 21st amendment came into effect in 1933. When a lot of law enforcement that had been facing layoff as they were no longer needed to enforce prohibition up crops another huge social problem.
New York, Chicago, and San Francisco had a problem with increased Heroin availability as the established smuggling routes for booze shifted to another product. Many of the southern states balked at an expensive federal program on drugs for what they saw as a regional Yankee issue. Then someone came up with the brilliant idea of taxing then banning the poor man's high which was then associated with black communities, marijuana. Cocaine was also considered a race based drug and the bandwagon was rolling.
Coca leaf extract and cocaine, back in the 30s and before, were commonly found in the energy drinks of the time, in nasal sprays for congestion, and in styptic pencils for small cuts. The field workers that harvested and processed coca leaves found that it could be used for a recreational high. And the concept that these negros were snorting cocaine and becoming sex crazed animals that were a danger to decent people everywhere was taken up by scare mongers with a racist agenda.
Thus was support for a federal drug program was sold to the voters and the prison population skyrocketed.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
I still find it quite interesting that recreational drug use didn't become a real problem until after the 21st amendment came into effect in 1933. When a lot of law enforcement that had been facing layoff as they were no longer needed to enforce prohibition up crops another huge social problem.
New York, Chicago, and San Francisco had a problem with increased Heroin availability as the established smuggling routes for booze shifted to another product. Many of the southern states balked at an expensive federal program on drugs for what they saw as a regional Yankee issue. Then someone came up with the brilliant idea of taxing then banning the poor man's high which was then associated with black communities, marijuana. Cocaine was also considered a race based drug and the bandwagon was rolling.
Coca leaf extract and cocaine, back in the 30s and before, were commonly found in the energy drinks of the time, in nasal sprays for congestion, and in styptic pencils for small cuts. The field workers that harvested and processed coca leaves found that it could be used for a recreational high. And the concept that these negros were snorting cocaine and becoming sex crazed animals that were a danger to decent people everywhere was taken up by scare mongers with a racist agenda.
Thus was support for a federal drug program was sold to the voters and the prison population skyrocketed.

Do you have any links for this? I find it very interesting and would love to read more about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech
Frankly, my statements there are my ideas from bits and pieces shuffled together from reading news articles from the time and watching newsreel footage.
The website https://archive.org/ is a wonderful place to look at what people saw at a given time. (The old commercials can be hilarious in a way. I actually remember the dancing cigarette packs from watching television as a child.) You can even download public domain movies. Watch Nosferatu, the first vampire movie ever, and compare to the Twilight series and see how perceptions have changed
A good overview place to start is a timeline on drug use in the United States. http://inpud.wordpress.com/timeline-of-events-in-the-history-of-drugs/
The common denominator I find in my poking into historical records is the issue of drugs is usually being driven by a conflict between two philosophical concepts.
On one hand you have an elitist notion that common men and the "child races" (early twentieth century term for anyone not northern European Caucasian - Yep, not honky crackers if you want a pejorative term) is incompetent to moderate their own behavior and must be forced to conform to social mores by threat of force embodied in restrictive taxes and penalties.
On the other hand you have the concept that government should exist to be the guardian of individual liberty and that attempts to legislate life choices is not in the purview of government... even if the life choices are to travel a well paved path to hell.
There is another way to look at what a government is. To paraphrase a history professor I admired, "If you look at the ancient background of government you find people paying one group of bandits to keep the other bandits away. When your bandits get too greedy, you get a different band of bandits."
Over the decades I've come to the conclusion that one of the driving forces behind the "war on drugs" is that stopping imports and production is more profitable in the coin of power and control than would be treating addiction and removing the demand.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking


Yes, keep in mind that Obama tried to close Gitmo - and the Radicals blocked him. And he tried to end the war in Iraq - but the Radicals fought him tooth and nail. Best laid plans of mice and well-meaning Democrats, I suppose.

I realize that this may come as a shock, DNAV, but incompetence isn't an excuse, it's still a fucking FAIL. He made the promise, probably meant it, but didn't have the skills to get it done.

Didn't have the skills? You mean catering to the right wing demands? You do remember what happened the last time the conservatives didn't get what they wanted right? They shut down your government. If you're saying incompetence isn't an excuse, then how about people who oppose the president as a good excuse? You got to realize that ya, Obama made a lot of promises, some of which he tried to follow through on but was stopped short by a republican dominated congress. I'm not saying Obama is a great president and that he isn't guilty for breaking promises, all politicians do that (not to mention I generally dislike him over many policies, drones being one of them). But you got to look at the big picture and look at the CAUSES for why Obama hasn't kept his promises. Does he not care? Did he lie? Or has he tried to do things but has been impeded by his political opponents? Chances are there are examples of all three, but you got to look at it by a case by case issue and not generalize.

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ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Obama was going to close Gitmo in '08, and the House Democrats were going to end that pesky war in Iraq in 2006. Hearing them say it, and believing they'll do it are very different things.

Yes, keep in mind that Obama tried to close Gitmo - and the Radicals blocked him. And he tried to end the war in Iraq - but the Radicals fought him tooth and nail. Best laid plans of mice and well-meaning Democrats, I suppose.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking


Yes, keep in mind that Obama tried to close Gitmo - and the Radicals blocked him. And he tried to end the war in Iraq - but the Radicals fought him tooth and nail. Best laid plans of mice and well-meaning Democrats, I suppose.

I realize that this may come as a shock, DNAV, but incompetence isn't an excuse, it's still a fucking FAIL. He made the promise, probably meant it, but didn't have the skills to get it done.

Didn't have the skills? You mean catering to the right wing demands? You do remember what happened the last time the conservatives didn't get what they wanted right? They shut down your government. If you're saying incompetence isn't an excuse, then how about people who oppose the president as a good excuse? You got to realize that ya, Obama made a lot of promises, some of which he tried to follow through on but was stopped short by a republican dominated congress. I'm not saying Obama is a great president and that he isn't guilty for breaking promises, all politicians do that (not to mention I generally dislike him over many policies, drones being one of them). But you got to look at the big picture and look at the CAUSES for why Obama hasn't kept his promises. Does he not care? Did he lie? Or has he tried to do things but has been impeded by his political opponents? Chances are there are examples of all three, but you got to look at it by a case by case issue and not generalize.

Of course you are not saying he isn't guilty of breaking promises, you are merely explaining why it is all the republicans fault that he did. Gottcha

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking


Yes, keep in mind that Obama tried to close Gitmo - and the Radicals blocked him. And he tried to end the war in Iraq - but the Radicals fought him tooth and nail. Best laid plans of mice and well-meaning Democrats, I suppose.

I realize that this may come as a shock, DNAV, but incompetence isn't an excuse, it's still a fucking FAIL. He made the promise, probably meant it, but didn't have the skills to get it done.

Didn't have the skills? You mean catering to the right wing demands? You do remember what happened the last time the conservatives didn't get what they wanted right? They shut down your government. If you're saying incompetence isn't an excuse, then how about people who oppose the president as a good excuse? You got to realize that ya, Obama made a lot of promises, some of which he tried to follow through on but was stopped short by a republican dominated congress. I'm not saying Obama is a great president and that he isn't guilty for breaking promises, all politicians do that (not to mention I generally dislike him over many policies, drones being one of them). But you got to look at the big picture and look at the CAUSES for why Obama hasn't kept his promises. Does he not care? Did he lie? Or has he tried to do things but has been impeded by his political opponents? Chances are there are examples of all three, but you got to look at it by a case by case issue and not generalize.

Of course you are not saying he isn't guilty of breaking promises, you are merely explaining why it is all the republicans fault that he did. Gottcha

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking


Yes, keep in mind that Obama tried to close Gitmo - and the Radicals blocked him. And he tried to end the war in Iraq - but the Radicals fought him tooth and nail. Best laid plans of mice and well-meaning Democrats, I suppose.

I realize that this may come as a shock, DNAV, but incompetence isn't an excuse, it's still a fucking FAIL. He made the promise, probably meant it, but didn't have the skills to get it done.

Didn't have the skills? You mean catering to the right wing demands? You do remember what happened the last time the conservatives didn't get what they wanted right? They shut down your government. If you're saying incompetence isn't an excuse, then how about people who oppose the president as a good excuse? You got to realize that ya, Obama made a lot of promises, some of which he tried to follow through on but was stopped short by a republican dominated congress. I'm not saying Obama is a great president and that he isn't guilty for breaking promises, all politicians do that (not to mention I generally dislike him over many policies, drones being one of them). But you got to look at the big picture and look at the CAUSES for why Obama hasn't kept his promises. Does he not care? Did he lie? Or has he tried to do things but has been impeded by his political opponents? Chances are there are examples of all three, but you got to look at it by a case by case issue and not generalize.

Of course you are not saying he isn't guilty of breaking promises, you are merely explaining why it is all the republicans fault that he did. Gottcha

Should read a little more carefully next time, that isn't what I was saying at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TieMeInKnottss

I don't really care about the political fighting stuff...politicians swing with the wind...

Pot...I used to believe it was completely harmless then I went to work at Shock Trauma Center (only hospital in the country that does nothing but trauma cases).... The first thing that surprised me was that many accidents, fires, robberies...that are reported on the news as just "one of those things"involve drugs and often that drug was pot. The mom who swerved and rolled her minivan...pot in her system, person who "may have fallen asleep" with the lit cigarette or while driving and smashed into the back of an 18wheeler-no skid marks so must have been asleep? Nope. Marijuana...Guy who fell down three steps and cut his head open? Not drunk...high on pot..

Yeah, alcohol makes stupid people do stupid stuff IF they drink too much...Pot, in any amount, makes stupid people do MORE stupid stuff...

If you want to bring up the political angle? 90% of those who end up at STC (no ER..no walk-ins...ambo and choppers must be forwarded there at the direction of the Emergency Services) have no insurance...

quote:

ORIGINAL: LorraineCA


I was wondering what your opinion is about the belief that Marijuana is a "Gateway" or "Stepping Stone" Drug?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

What promises did he actually make good on?

Well, he ended the war in Afghani ... He didn't? Oh.

Okay. We can keep the doctor we've been going to for years. We can't? Oh.

We can keep our insura ... We can't? Oh.

He closed Gitm ... He didn't? Oh.

He undid the damage to personal liberties foisted upon us by Bush's PATRIOT Ac ... He didn't? Oh.

The economy is doing bet ... No?

He's improved race rela ... No? Oh.

Well, he got re-elected. I guess that's an accomplishment.