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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 5:12:42 AM

BenevolentM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Artisculation2

Morals are a rationalisation of natural behaviour. ...

As I pointed out earlier

quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sermon_on_the_Mount

The last verse of chapter 5 is considered to be a focal point that summarizes the teaching of the sermon: "be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect", advising his disciples and followers to seek the path towards perfection and the Kingdom of God.

It is likely that what you say is partially true. It is, nonetheless, the left hand path where you just give up.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 5:33:08 AM

BenevolentM

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Some of you may be in shock to realize how easily much of this fancy academic work can be dismissed. It cannot hold up against the Socratic method.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 5:43:29 AM

Tkman117

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How about the scientific method? You know, the thing everything we know as knowledge in this world is based on

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 5:49:57 AM

chatterbox24

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

To comment further on the difference between Buddhism and Christianity. It may seem odd to say that Buddhists are practicing magic. What is prayer then? Isn't it a magical practice? There is an important albeit subtle difference. With one you are sending something out into the void, a good intention or something, and other is a conversation with God. The notion of God is not as vague. What the Buddhists practice is too pure to be pure. A Judeo-Christian argument should help to make what I am saying more clear. In the Lord's Prayer we say "Your Will be done." There is no necessity for it to fully conform to our understanding or expectations.

I would like to touch on this subject. Some Christians get a little bend out of shape with the words "meditation " or the word "magic". I know I have had the experience, its like those words, indicate witch craft of some sort. Which is ridiculous. I have a friend who Ive known for many years, and in a telephone conversation. I asked her "What are you practicing?" And her response was "I m a Christian Buddhist" We are cut ups, so she was kidding actually, but I can relate to many Buddhist concepts. I find it funny you have compared to the two when we just had this conversation.
I believe Christianity and Buddhism have similar strategies to get to the same place in life. That is balance.
Just as you said Ben, cycling between two polar opposites does not bring balance.
Everyday and maybe many times a day, I will ask to be given guidance in situations and the words I say either out loud or in my mind are "God will, not my own" Of course I do some studies also to strengthen myself, so I can be more of a benefit to others, not only myself.
Not all wisdom comes in BOOM I know, some of it is Fuzzy as you said. Its like scales one is trying to balance and sometimes you can only hope for the best action to be taken. If by chance I make a bad decision, I don't say Oh well this God thing is for the birds, and give up. I evaluate how I came to the conclusion to do what I did, because sometimes the recipe was just wrong. And sometimes a lesson needs learned, and the only way to learn it, is to live it.
Stand for nothing, fall for anything is a saying I live by. Some written laws are in black and white, and these are the things I feel a strong conviction to help uphold. Christians, true practicing sincere Christians are meek and peace lovers, and bigotry is not part of their practice. They will stand up though and be recognized if they feel strongly about broken laws they believe in. Its not about being bigots, its really about what is best for society in general. People get caught up on some serious wack jobs who give us a bad name. It is not Gods will and power that fuel them, it is their own will and power they seek, which is very misled.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 6:03:17 AM

chatterbox24

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Artisculation2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

quote:

ORIGINAL: Artisculation2

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

What is morality and what good is it?

Morality is probably a rationalisation of natural behaviour. There's been a lot of research into morality and if you see moral behaviour as just human behaviour, basic moral values transcend cultures from developed cultures right through to tribal cultures. In fact, tribal cultures tend to be more moralistic than developed cultures if you want to use moralistic language.

You're logic falls on deaf ears my friend, he has no interest in hearing different opinions from his own.

Yep. I've just read some more of the thread and see your point.

TKman117.
I do believe this poster responded the way he did, because you but a BUG in his ear (and your point to do that was?). He is new, and just followed what you said. I think Benevolent listens and takes account of what I say, even if he doesn't agree. He just is not going to compromise his beliefs. Its pretty plain and simple.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 6:09:57 AM

chatterbox24

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Can you catch an elephant in a butterfly net? Can you catch a butterfly in an elephant cage? Can you catch the wind in your hands? Can you bottle a personality? Can you see what I am thinking right now? Or anyone here for that matter? Some things are just mysteries, they cant be proved, with some hypothesis. They can only be proved internally, and individually, religion has remained active for a reason.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 6:14:00 AM

chatterbox24

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

http://womeninchrist.org/wic_com/tmprate.htm

Temperance...temperance.....Temperance

The extent to which God has honored me indicates that these things are merely tools and not ends in themselves.

Yes just one of many tools to build.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 6:25:06 AM

BenevolentM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

How about the scientific method? You know, the thing everything we know as knowledge in this world is based on

The Socratic method is more general than the scientific method. The scientific method is not adequate to address philosophical problems. There has been some work done in scientific circles, but it is weak. Just like how the other fellow was talking about intentionally or inadvertently the sort of work that has been done in robotics in an attempt to understand morality.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 6:44:37 AM

chatterbox24

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Noble is not just a social status definition. It is also a state of mind.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/noble

especially referring to the synonym study at the bottom of the page.

< Message edited by chatterbox24 -- 3/28/2014 6:47:14 AM >

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 6:48:53 AM

BenevolentM

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There is a useful story from the Chernobyl nuclear disaster. It concerns the man who made the accident happen. He assumed the technical data was accurate. He made technical decisions based on it which resulted in the disaster.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 6:54:02 AM

BenevolentM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Noble is not just a social status definition. It is also a state of mind.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/noble

especially referring to the synonym study at the bottom of the page.

Oh dear chatterbox24 is using her religious training to comment on my work. I'm honored.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 7:20:04 AM

BenevolentM

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Which is more important? The absence of Sin or the willingness to pay homage to those who try not to?

The atheists say it is clearly the absence of Sin. In some respects it is an Is the glass half empty or half full problem.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 8:00:47 AM

chatterbox24

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Which is more important? The absence of Sin or the willingness to pay homage to those who try not to?

The atheists say it is clearly the absence of Sin. In some respects it is an Is the glass half empty or half full problem.

In all honesty, I myself have never known an atheist personally, one that made that claim. If I have I didn't know it. Based on what I read, we would not relate well.
I really don't think its possible not to sin. How is one ever absent of sin? I basically cant wrap my head around it.

I think the important part is that one is sincere in the art of being the best person they can be, practicing goodness. Even if one doesn't believe in God, that simple practice alone makes for a better world.
I have a lot of respect for those who practice to try not to sin as much as possible, and a lot of compassion for their journey or quest, when things go off track. Its just life sometimes. I don't believe Jesus wanted us to be miserable either! Is it not said, I came so you may live life and live it to the fullest.

< Message edited by chatterbox24 -- 3/28/2014 8:01:39 AM >

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 8:17:17 AM

chatterbox24

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In reference to that movie, I liked the part where Ed is standing with the greatest minds. He tells a story of twins. One stays on Earth and ages, the other is launched into outerspace and stays young. He asked the great minds, who do you think was happier? A couple of the great minds, respond "The younger!" and Ed responses "No, the older, because he had trials and life experiences, for him time passed much differently, the younger of the two, time just passed. It never said what he was doing up there? Reading maybe? lol. Life is to live and love.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 8:28:01 AM

GeekyCouplePHX

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Atheists do NOT state that the absence of sin is more important, mainly because the concept of 'SIN' is largely an abrahamic religious one. Native american, polynesian, and other non judeo-christian religions do not have 'sins' within their doctrine.

Atheists are much more concerned with morality than the approval of an invisible sky-father. Actions that your religion (assuming you are Xtian) mark as sinful may not be immoral at all, like eating pork, or wearing clothing made from more than one type of thread. Other actions that the bible claim are moral and righteous, like selling your daughters into slavery, or beating your spouse to death, are considered immoral and wrong by many atheists (and others). The mere fact that millions of christians choose not to stone people to death for some sins is an admittance that their morality and their religion's laws regarding sin aren't aligned, that there are things that the bible tells christians that they must do that are obviously horrific and barbaric, regardless of the fact that they are approved by God himself, via the authors of the bible.

Without a religion to guide us, many atheists subscribe to the concept that our actions should cause no (Unconsensual) suffering in ourselves or others. If what you are doing causes suffering, then it is wrong. If your actions reduce suffering, then they are laudable. Actions that cause the least suffering are more moral than those that cause more; those that cause the least suffering, or reduce the most suffering are superior to those that do not. If you want a more nuanced version of this concept, look up Sam Harris on youtube (http://bit.ly/1myqtBI); he makes the best argument that morality can be determined logically, without any religious doctrine at all.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 8:57:15 AM

BenevolentM

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I have thought about becoming a priest. I never married which kind of qualifies me. In practical terms as many here know I don't get it and it may come to pass that I will die alone, never having been loved. I am not saying that I am a virgin, but to be entirely honest I wish I was. I didn't know that women were evil. The only experiences I have had that are unsullied are those where we never had sex. To me woman is like Eve. I cannot forsake her.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 9:08:08 AM

BenevolentM

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This is one of the better discussions on the topic. The problem with it is that it is weak and pollyannaish. It is unclear that it is realistically possible to deviate from the teachings of the Church. Its teachings are amazingly solid. The Church was once the Roman Empire. It has many centuries of real world experience. The Church lives in the real world.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyCouplePHX

Atheists do NOT state that the absence of sin is more important, mainly because the concept of 'SIN' is largely an abrahamic religious one. Native american, polynesian, and other non judeo-christian religions do not have 'sins' within their doctrine.

Atheists are much more concerned with morality than the approval of an invisible sky-father. Actions that your religion (assuming you are Xtian) mark as sinful may not be immoral at all, like eating pork, or wearing clothing made from more than one type of thread. Other actions that the bible claim are moral and righteous, like selling your daughters into slavery, or beating your spouse to death, are considered immoral and wrong by many atheists (and others). The mere fact that millions of christians choose not to stone people to death for some sins is an admittance that their morality and their religion's laws regarding sin aren't aligned, that there are things that the bible tells christians that they must do that are obviously horrific and barbaric, regardless of the fact that they are approved by God himself, via the authors of the bible.

Without a religion to guide us, many atheists subscribe to the concept that our actions should cause no (Unconsensual) suffering in ourselves or others. If what you are doing causes suffering, then it is wrong. If your actions reduce suffering, then they are laudable. Actions that cause the least suffering are more moral than those that cause more; those that cause the least suffering, or reduce the most suffering are superior to those that do not. If you want a more nuanced version of this concept, look up Sam Harris on youtube (http://bit.ly/1myqtBI); he makes the best argument that morality can be determined logically, without any religious doctrine at all.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 9:21:22 AM

BenevolentM

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Church is not interested in helping you live a Sinful life. It presents you with the gold standard that you can either reject or accept.

It begs a question, What do you do if you cannot live up to that standard? The presumption is you can live up to that standard; it is just that you haven't yet come around to realizing it.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 9:27:17 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
They can only be proved internally, and individually, religion has remained active for a reason.

Religion has remained active for a reason, but that reason isn't one of truth. The Asch conformity experiments are a good example of how incredibly susceptible people are to even obviously untrue beliefs on account of social pressure. This is of course why your religion looks nothing like science and is all about assertions, emotional manipulation and praising faith.

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RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 9:42:56 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyCouplePHX

If what you are doing causes suffering, then it is wrong. If your actions reduce suffering, then they are laudable. Actions that cause the least suffering are more moral than those that cause more; those that cause the least suffering, or reduce the most suffering are superior to those that do not.

If you think you can defend that position, I'd like to see you try. In my view, it amounts to nothing more or less than simple consequentialism, the failings of which are myriad.

K.

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