RE: What good is morality anyway?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: What good is morality anyway?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: What good is morality anyway?

Page: << < prev 25 26 [27] 28 29 next > >>

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 9:46:17 AM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline

In my opinion the Church should teach us how to live a Sinful life in such a way as to encourage us not to. Is my opinion the correct opinion? Whether it is or is not of course is another matter.

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Profile

Post #: 521

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 9:46:27 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GeekyCouplePHX

Atheists do NOT state that the absence of sin is more important, mainly because the concept of 'SIN' is largely an abrahamic religious one. Native american, polynesian, and other non judeo-christian religions do not have 'sins' within their doctrine.

Atheists are much more concerned with morality than the approval of an invisible sky-father. Actions that your religion (assuming you are Xtian) mark as sinful may not be immoral at all, like eating pork, or wearing clothing made from more than one type of thread. Other actions that the bible claim are moral and righteous, like selling your daughters into slavery, or beating your spouse to death, are considered immoral and wrong by many atheists (and others). The mere fact that millions of christians choose not to stone people to death for some sins is an admittance that their morality and their religion's laws regarding sin aren't aligned, that there are things that the bible tells christians that they must do that are obviously horrific and barbaric, regardless of the fact that they are approved by God himself, via the authors of the bible.

Without a religion to guide us, many atheists subscribe to the concept that our actions should cause no (Unconsensual) suffering in ourselves or others. If what you are doing causes suffering, then it is wrong. If your actions reduce suffering, then they are laudable. Actions that cause the least suffering are more moral than those that cause more; those that cause the least suffering, or reduce the most suffering are superior to those that do not. If you want a more nuanced version of this concept, look up Sam Harris on youtube (http://bit.ly/1myqtBI); he makes the best argument that morality can be determined logically, without any religious doctrine at all.

Thank you for your contribution to the thread. Gives one a better perspective.

_____________________________

I am like a box of chocolates, you never know what variety you are going to get on any given day.

My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

(in reply to GeekyCouplePHX)

Profile

Post #: 522

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 9:50:59 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
They can only be proved internally, and individually, religion has remained active for a reason.

Religion has remained active for a reason, but that reason isn't one of truth. The Asch conformity experiments are a good example of how incredibly susceptible people are to even obviously untrue beliefs on account of social pressure. This is of course why your religion looks nothing like science and is all about assertions, emotional manipulation and praising faith.

I am not aspiring to be a nun or priest, so accuse me when I say, I find you extremely hateful and have a distinct dislike for you. I don't know why you are so bitter, but it is very evident.

_____________________________

I am like a box of chocolates, you never know what variety you are going to get on any given day.

My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Profile

Post #: 523

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 9:54:52 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

I have thought about becoming a priest. I never married which kind of qualifies me. In practical terms as many here know I don't get it and it may come to pass that I will die alone, never having been loved. I am not saying that I am a virgin, but to be entirely honest I wish I was. I didn't know that women were evil. The only experiences I have had that are unsullied are those where we never had sex. To me woman is like Eve. I cannot forsake her.

I think that is great Ben. One doesn't have to have a family and kids to be very loved and appreciated. I know I have found your knowledge wonderful and of great benefit. I would guess you would be very loved by many people.

_____________________________

I am like a box of chocolates, you never know what variety you are going to get on any given day.

My crazy smells like jasmine, cloves and cat nip.

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Profile

Post #: 524

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 10:58:30 AM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline

If guards are possible, containment, why wouldn't it be possible for the Church to teach us how to live a Sinful life in such a way as to encourage us not to? Unless of course guards were in truth impossible. This may be true in the general case, but it seems reasonable that containment is possible for special cases.

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Profile

Post #: 525

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 11:23:43 AM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline

I recall having spoken of this once before awhile back. It is my understanding that Padre Pio was regularly assaulted by the devil. The devil would often disguise himself as God which was confusing. In time he was able to tell the difference or at least have an easier time telling the difference between the devil and God. The light of the devil has some characteristics similar to that of nuclear energy which was not so with God. This is an analogy I am making. I don't think Padre Pio ever spoke of nuclear energy. There is something about it that is unhealthy. It contains ultraviolet light and x-rays. Exposure to it is harmful, but the harm may be subtle.

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Profile

Post #: 526

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 11:32:52 AM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline

Though the notion of containment may be worrisome given the analogy I just gave, the Church clearly draws a distinction between the purity of its teachings and the real world challenge of living up to them. So long as full containment can be achieved in writing my proposal may be doable.

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Profile

Post #: 527

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 11:46:01 AM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
Religion has remained active for a reason, but that reason isn't one of truth. The Asch conformity experiments are a good example of how incredibly susceptible people are to even obviously untrue beliefs on account of social pressure. This is of course why your religion looks nothing like science and is all about assertions, emotional manipulation and praising faith.

I am not aspiring to be a nun or priest, so accuse me when I say, I find you extremely hateful and have a distinct dislike for you. I don't know why you are so bitter, but it is very evident.

You're projecting. My position isn't about hate it's about research.

Furthermore notice how you can't contest the accuracy of my statement, you have to go with emotional manipulation.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 3/28/2014 11:47:33 AM >

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Profile

Post #: 528

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 12:54:40 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

your religion looks nothing like science...

That is supposed to be a criticism? Religion is symbolic. To treat it otherwise leaves no significant difference between a religion and a parody of one like Pastafarianism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

and is all about assertions, emotional manipulation and praising faith.

The assertions she is making communicate her experience. The only emotional manipulation here is being served up by you, with a garnish of insult to complete the plate.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Profile

Post #: 529

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 2:22:08 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

Expecting that you didn't click on the link it's an experiment that should how incredibly susceptible humans are to social pressure. A group of people are asked which line on the right is the same as the one on the left. The first several are in on it and give the wrong answer the point of the experiment being to see how that will effect the actual test subject. The result is that a disturbing amount of the time the test subject picks the obviously wrong answer.

Now when asked the reasons vary, some are really convinced others are just going along (remind anybody of Christianity). But either way consider how effective a few random strangers with an obviously wrong position can be and then consider that with religion it's not just a few moments, it's often decades. It's not just a few strangers, it's your community and loved ones. It's not consequence free, as you've pointed out we can expect dissent to be met with social consequences.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Profile

Post #: 530

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 2:28:04 PM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

I think that is great Ben. One doesn't have to have a family and kids to be very loved and appreciated. I know I have found your knowledge wonderful and of great benefit. I would guess you would be very loved by many people.

Kind words. That was true when I was active in politics. People liked me. I have some amazing stories to tell. I was loved.

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Profile

Post #: 531

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 3:25:47 PM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline

I've taken a psychology class or two or three in college. I didn't become an atheist.

The problem with such studies is we have yet to figure out what it means.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Profile

Post #: 532

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 4:28:15 PM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

... This is of course why your religion looks nothing like science and is all about assertions, emotional manipulation and praising faith.

I am not aspiring to be a nun or priest, so accuse me when I say, I find you extremely hateful and have a distinct dislike for you. I don't know why you are so bitter, but it is very evident.

chatterbox24 as I pointed out earlier atheists wallow like pigs in mud. Is his manner rude? He is rude and you are responding to him as if he were rude. He evidently feels no obligation not to be rude. I also suspect that he wants to crawl into bed with you and he feels rejected so I suspect that is part of it.

He is talking to you as if you were a man and so it is possible he doesn't have a whole lot of experience.

atheists reject symbolic superstitions. Common courtesy could be construed as a superstition since it is emotive. atheists do not care about people though they think they care. If they cared, they would realize how difficult it is. They would be more skeptical of pollyannaish solutions. Maybe science has something to offer, but it is a religion for them.

I hope this makes you feel better.

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Profile

Post #: 533

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 4:35:55 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Expecting that you didn't click on the link...

What you fail to disclose, probably because you don't even really know what you're talking about, is that even with maximal social pressure, wherein all participants were confederates except the single subject, only 31.8% of those subjects "went along," and only a smaller percentage thought the group must be right. On the other hand, slightly more than a two-thirds supermajority were not swayed even in the maximal social pressure trials, with still higher percentages declining to be swayed in the lesser social pressure trials.

Although Asch’s results have been upheld by many other studies, a common criticism is that it is difficult to generalize his results to real world situations (Hock, 2005). Critics believe that something as trivial as judging the length of a line in a laboratory does not relate to conformity on important real life issues. (Hock, 2005). Another criticism is that participant’s may be conforming to the expectations of the experimenter, not the group (Schulman, 1967).

Based on Perrin & Spencer’s results, as well as their own results that showed no conformity when the test stimuli were more ambiguous, Lionel G. Standing and Marie-France Lalancette argue that Asch’s results were merely a phenomenon rather than a stable characteristic of human behavior (Standing & Lalancette, 1990). ~Source

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/28/2014 5:26:45 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)

Profile

Post #: 534

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 5:46:09 PM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline

You asked me about meditation. Is it witchcraft? There is a foundation for the accusation, but you also need to realize that driving an automobile could be construed as witchcraft because it is fully within the scope of human understanding. For example the concepts of all and nothing fall within the scope of human understanding.

There is of course the question of if a woman were to own an automobile, but does not drive it, Is she a witch? I am being silly of course.

I would recommend saying the rosary. I would have no problem sitting with Buddhist monks. I too can send out nice thoughts to the universe. What I am getting at is don't use meditation as a substitute for actual prayer.

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Profile

Post #: 535

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 6:25:44 PM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline

I used the term witchcraft and magic synonymously which I suppose confuses the topic some what. I am treating magic and taboo as distinct. Is it taboo to send out nice thoughts to the universe? No. There are things that are taboo, however, places you are not supposed to go. For example, you are not supposed to make a pact with the devil. Needless to say that is very taboo.

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Profile

Post #: 536

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 6:39:47 PM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline

You have to exercise a certain amount of common sense.

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Profile

Post #: 537

RE: What good is morality anyway? - 3/28/2014 7:21:57 PM

BenevolentM