RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (Full Version)

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GotSteel -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 12:06:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
This may anger a few people, or a lot. What does antigay mean to you? You may think that I am anti gay. I will not be one to vote for gay marriage. If I vote as such, it means I believe that it is okay. Its none of my business who one loves, and nor their sexual practices. It is your right. I can be friends, I can treat you with respect, but I can not vote that I want it to be all accepting. Most likely it will be voted in by the majority in the future, it will not be an issue anymore. I can tell you this though, I would never watch nor participate nor allow, if within my power, anyone giving you grief or hurting you. That is unacceptable, and any group or individual who does this, should be stopped or prosecuted. Is this anti gay to you?


You get that you are hurting homosexuals by denying them equal rights don't you? By oppressing homosexuals you are not treating them with respect.

If you think it's their right then vote for gay marriage.






GotSteel -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 12:16:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Not gay marriage... I am talking about gays in general...Homophobia is NOT exclusive to those who are spiritual.


While it's technically accurate to say that not every single homophobe is spiritual it's also very misleading.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/03/whats-connection-between-religion-and.html
Unsurprisingly, religious people were more likely to be homophobic - in fact, religion was one of the strongest predictors of attitudes to homosexuals.

It also turned out that more religious people were more likely to be authoritarian, conservative, poorer, and Protestant - all factors that also predicted homophobia. Women were also more likely to be religious, but less likely than men to be homophobic.

But even after taking all this into account, religious people were still more likely to be homophobic. In other words, an authoritarian conservative is even more likely to be homophobic if they are also religious. Women are more likely to be homophobic if they are religious. Among all the possible factors they explored, two stuck out as being much more powerful predictors of homophobia than the rest: conservatism and religiosity.



[image]local://upfiles/566126/26E3139E64DB4AABBBE531E939AFCCDC.jpg[/image]




dcnovice -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 12:50:08 PM)

quote:

You may think that I am anti gay. I will not be one to vote for gay marriage. If I vote as such, it means I believe that it is okay.

For me, a key question is why you think gay marriage isn't "oksy."

I'm told folks can have reasons other than disapproval of homosexuality, but I've honestly yet to hear one.




chatterbox24 -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 1:18:30 PM)

Medical research
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

You may think that I am anti gay. I will not be one to vote for gay marriage. If I vote as such, it means I believe that it is okay.

For me, a key question is why you think gay marriage isn't "oksy."

I'm told folks can have reasons other than disapproval of homosexuality, but I've honestly yet to hear one.





Lucylastic -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 1:43:30 PM)

what medical research?




fucktoyprincess -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 1:55:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Well I can't speak on Islam because I have never studied it, but I have been to a lot of christian churches and none of them taught us to be apart from nature or hate our neighbors so I am not sure where you are getting that.

Also, he didn't dictate anything, He gave his opinion. I know because he said so in the very beginning.


This has been discussed extensively in other threads, but the main gist is that if you combine monotheism with an obligation to convert then you have created a religion that is not tolerant of the religion of others.

Christians and Muslims the world over do not peacefully co-exist with others because it is an important part of their religion to save other people by converting them. What exactly do you think Christian missionary work is??

To not respect someone else's religion "sets people against their neighbor" to use Kirata's words.

Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, Sikhs, Jews NEVER contact me trying to convert me. Christianity and Islam are quite different. As someone who comes from a Hindu background I don't enjoy having other religions tell me I will go to their version of hell because I don't believe in their god. Sorry, but this is NOT tolerant. Not to mention, on a separate note, that most forced conversions historically have been the result of either Christianity or Islam. How does and of this square with tolerance, live-and-let-live, etc? It doesn't really. [sm=2cents.gif]




Musicmystery -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 1:59:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Christians and Muslims the world over do not peacefully co-exist with others because it is an important part of their religion to save other people by converting them. What exactly do you think Christian missionary work is??

Christians and Muslims the world over primarily get along just fine.

The world is bigger than your TV screen.




BitYakin -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 2:27:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Not gay marriage... I am talking about gays in general...Homophobia is NOT exclusive to those who are spiritual.


While it's technically accurate to say that not every single homophobe is spiritual it's also very misleading.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/03/whats-connection-between-religion-and.html
Unsurprisingly, religious people were more likely to be homophobic - in fact, religion was one of the strongest predictors of attitudes to homosexuals.

It also turned out that more religious people were more likely to be authoritarian, conservative, poorer, and Protestant - all factors that also predicted homophobia. Women were also more likely to be religious, but less likely than men to be homophobic.

But even after taking all this into account, religious people were still more likely to be homophobic. In other words, an authoritarian conservative is even more likely to be homophobic if they are also religious. Women are more likely to be homophobic if they are religious. Among all the possible factors they explored, two stuck out as being much more powerful predictors of homophobia than the rest: conservatism and religiosity.



[image]local://upfiles/566126/26E3139E64DB4AABBBE531E939AFCCDC.jpg[/image]



did ya ever stop to think and/or wonder if MAYBE of the study/control group that just MAYBE 99% were religious..

lets say you used 1000 people, and found that 50% of those people are homophobic, but 99% of the entire group was religious, this would mean 99.5% of your homophobic group were ALSO religious. you could therefor make the claim that RELIGION is the thing these people have in common...

see I notice your article says they used 1500 adults, but HOW MANY OF THEM WERE ATHIESTS?

odds are if you randomly dialed 1500 people in the usa and asked are you RELIGOUIS, a SUPER HIGH percentage would say yes or at the least say, I am SPIRITUAL

so unless your poll group has 50% atheist, its a BIASED POLL




BitYakin -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 2:38:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Well I can't speak on Islam because I have never studied it, but I have been to a lot of christian churches and none of them taught us to be apart from nature or hate our neighbors so I am not sure where you are getting that.

Also, he didn't dictate anything, He gave his opinion. I know because he said so in the very beginning.


This has been discussed extensively in other threads, but the main gist is that if you combine monotheism with an obligation to convert then you have created a religion that is not tolerant of the religion of others.

Christians and Muslims the world over do not peacefully co-exist with others because it is an important part of their religion to save other people by converting them. What exactly do you think Christian missionary work is??

To not respect someone else's religion "sets people against their neighbor" to use Kirata's words.

Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, Sikhs, Jews NEVER contact me trying to convert me. Christianity and Islam are quite different. As someone who comes from a Hindu background I don't enjoy having other religions tell me I will go to their version of hell because I don't believe in their god. Sorry, but this is NOT tolerant. Not to mention, on a separate note, that most forced conversions historically have been the result of either Christianity or Islam. How does and of this square with tolerance, live-and-let-live, etc? It doesn't really. [sm=2cents.gif]


I was raised Catholic, attended catholic schools my entire educational period, and at NO TIME was I ever told there was an OBLIGATION to CONVERT ANYONE EVER...

now if a religious group knocks on my door and wants to SPREAD the faith that could hardly be considered FORCED CONVERSION

the SAD part of this is, that you think because someone feels strongly about something and wants to SHARE IT WITH YOU, it means they are FORCING IT ON YOU

if I heard a really GREAT SONG, and came up to you and said "MANNN have ya ever heard this song, its GREAT!", you would say "OHHH NOOOO this guy is FORCING ROCK N ROLL ON ME!"

as for, "As someone who comes from a Hindu background I don't enjoy having other religions tell me I will go to their version of hell because I don't believe in their god"

CHILL OUT, do they TIE YOU DOWN and FORCE you to listen? every one that I ever encountered I'd say NO THANKS and they go off and try to tell someone else. again hardly the FORCED CONVERSION you make it sound like

PS. I DO NOT attend any formal religious ANYTHING, and I have NEVER BEEN APROACHED by the church to try to convince me to RETURN TO THE FLOCK




mnottertail -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 2:45:14 PM)

LOL, based on the numbers argument you just made, there is no question that the feebleminded religious are homophobes.  Purer than soap homophobes.




dcnovice -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 3:05:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Medical research
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

You may think that I am anti gay. I will not be one to vote for gay marriage. If I vote as such, it means I believe that it is okay.

For me, a key question is why you think gay marriage isn't "oksy."

I'm told folks can have reasons other than disapproval of homosexuality, but I've honestly yet to hear one.


Care to elaborate?




Lucylastic -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 3:06:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin


CHILL OUT, do they TIE YOU DOWN and FORCE you to listen?


when they make christian based laws ..... yes....which is why church and state should be separate.
and quit with the shouting, you arent impressing anyone





Lucylastic -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 3:20:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Not gay marriage... I am talking about gays in general...Homophobia is NOT exclusive to those who are spiritual.


While it's technically accurate to say that not every single homophobe is spiritual it's also very misleading.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/03/whats-connection-between-religion-and.html
Unsurprisingly, religious people were more likely to be homophobic - in fact, religion was one of the strongest predictors of attitudes to homosexuals.

It also turned out that more religious people were more likely to be authoritarian, conservative, poorer, and Protestant - all factors that also predicted homophobia. Women were also more likely to be religious, but less likely than men to be homophobic.

But even after taking all this into account, religious people were still more likely to be homophobic. In other words, an authoritarian conservative is even more likely to be homophobic if they are also religious. Women are more likely to be homophobic if they are religious. Among all the possible factors they explored, two stuck out as being much more powerful predictors of homophobia than the rest: conservatism and religiosity.



[image]local://upfiles/566126/26E3139E64DB4AABBBE531E939AFCCDC.jpg[/image]



did ya ever stop to think and/or wonder if MAYBE of the study/control group that just MAYBE 99% were religious..

lets say you used 1000 people, and found that 50% of those people are homophobic, but 99% of the entire group was religious, this would mean 99.5% of your homophobic group were ALSO religious. you could therefor make the claim that RELIGION is the thing these people have in common...

see I notice your article says they used 1500 adults, but HOW MANY OF THEM WERE ATHIESTS?

odds are if you randomly dialed 1500 people in the usa and asked are you RELIGOUIS, a SUPER HIGH percentage would say yes or at the least say, I am SPIRITUAL

so unless your poll group has 50% atheist, its a BIASED POLL


THe APA found it worth publishing


Psychologists have devoted considerable theoretical and empirical attention to the scientific study of social attitudes and prejudice. Most of these studies were conducted with relatively small, nonrepresentative samples of college students. In this study, the authors analyzed self-report data from a random probability sample with over 1500 American adults. Participants answered questions about their religiousness, right-wing authoritarianism (RWA), political ideology, demographic characteristics, and attitudes toward persons in historically disadvantaged social groups (i.e., ethnic minorities and homosexual individuals). In support of the selective intolerance hypothesis, general religiousness was associated with less accepting attitudes toward homosexuals and negligibly with general racial prejudice. These associations remained when controlling for some other known individual differences in prejudice. The authors tentatively conclude that general religiousness is not associated with universal acceptance of others. Rather, general religiousness appears to be linked with selective self-reported intolerance toward persons perceived to behave in a manner inconsistent with some traditional religious teachings.
http://psycnet.apa.org/?&fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1037/a0014989




BitYakin -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 5:24:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin


CHILL OUT, do they TIE YOU DOWN and FORCE you to listen?


when they make christian based laws ..... yes....which is why church and state should be separate.
and quit with the shouting, you arent impressing anyone




last I heard no church makes ANY LAWS, now if the MAJORITY of voters elect someone based on the premise they will push for laws they like, well I THINK that's called DEMOCRACY
are you saying the Christian population shouldn't be allowed to VOTE?

also I'd like to point out that MAYBE, just MAYBE if certain groups weren't so hell bent on stamping out religion any and everyplace they can, religions might not feel as inclined to feel they need LAWS to protect their ways of life

I mean everyone should know by now if you PUSH something it tends to PUSH BACK

its like the 2nd or 3rd law of physics, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction

I mean just look at the TITLE of this thread here is a person that's predicting in the future religion will be vilified to be equal to slavery

and I type the way I type, don't like it that's your problem!




Lucylastic -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 5:50:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin


CHILL OUT, do they TIE YOU DOWN and FORCE you to listen?


when they make christian based laws ..... yes....which is why church and state should be separate.
and quit with the shouting, you arent impressing anyone




last I heard no church makes ANY LAWS I never said they did, did I?? no
so quit with the strawmen



, now if the MAJORITY of voters elect someone based on the premise they will push for laws they like, well I THINK that's called DEMOCRACY .......no REALLY??
are you saying the Christian population shouldn't be allowed to VOTE? I didnt say that either or anything close to it

also I'd like to point out that MAYBE, just MAYBE if certain groups weren't so hell bent on stamping out religion any and everyplace they can, religions might not feel as inclined to feel they need LAWS to protect their ways of life. Which groups are doing that???
Actually the issue is that the "religious nuts" ARE wanting to force EVERYONE to live to their creed and way of life.


I mean everyone should know by now if you PUSH something it tends to PUSH BACK

its like the 2nd or 3rd law of physics, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction
Yes and thats why we have civil rights, human rights, Roe Vs Wade and the womens movement, and are working towards equality regardless of sex, creed, race gender,
you dont know your Laws of Physics?
then dont quote them, you look ill informed at best.


I mean just look at the TITLE of this thread here is a person that's predicting in the future religion will be vilified to be equal to slavery
oh a person who shared a statement by an actor and suddenly you are screaming persecution? really?
Snorts


and I type the way I type, don't like it that's your problem!
oh my dear chap, the problem goes way beyond the way you type...but im being exceedingly good today
you get off lightly







evesgrden -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 6:54:04 PM)

FR


Jesus, protect me from your followers. Amen.



Carry on.




tweakabelle -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 7:06:19 PM)

I'm relieved to discover that I am not the only one have difficulties coming up with a workable definiton or understanding of what 'religion' means. When scrutinised, it becomes quite a slippery concept to pin down.

quote:

So in my opinion, for whatever may be worth, no teaching or practice that serves to divide creation, to separate man from Nature, or to set him against his neighbor, can properly be called religious. And I'll confess to thinking that it would save the world a lot of strife, and copious amounts of blood in the bargain, if more people shared that view.


Kirata's suggestion is an interesting one. It has some philosophical and aesthetic merit - it's a nice way of looking at the topic but sadly it is not a very good description of what passes for religion in today's world. This may well be, as K's definition implies because much of what passes for religion in today's world isn't very good religion. But a workable definition or understanding must be capable of explaining both good and bad religon. So while this approach offers a handy ideal, it lacks practical merit.

Bearing in mind that all definitions are ultimately inadequate, can I suggest the following as a basis for discussion?
Religion is a belief or series of related beliefs that attempt to explain the totality of our relationships with the world/universe around us. It offers an explanation of the purposes and/or meanings of those relationships by defining those beliefs as truths of our existence. Usually the core belief of a religious belief system is posited as a universal Truth, the fundament upon which all other truths rest.

Viewed in this light, the problems begin once a given religion makes a claim to be the Absolute Truth and that all others are wrong/invalid/heretical. Once this claim is made, the system of belief(s) become an overt Power/Knowledge system that authorises all kinds of acts from prosetelysing to genocide to extend its area of operation.

For the purposes of this thread, applying this perspective would differentiate between Absolutist religions (eg Christianity, Islam, Judaism) and those that do not make absolute claims. The views expresed in the OP can be safely assumed to apply to Absolutist religions*


* A few people seem to be of the misapprehension that I share the views expressed in the OP. I do not. I did think they might provide a good basis for a discussion which is why I used them.




Kirata -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 7:41:20 PM)


Stereotyping is never pretty, and this is the second time in just this thread alone. Not to mention that the source for the story is "The Phrenologists Notebook". The fact is, 65% of mainline Protestants and 71% of Catholics are accepting of homosexuality. That's higher than the 60% acceptance rate among Americans overall. According to Pew Research, only 31% of Americans think homosexuality should be discouraged, and almost half of them give a reason other than religion.

Prejudices are what fools use for reason. ~Voltaire

K.









Kirata -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 8:00:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

a workable definition or understanding must be capable of explaining both good and bad religon

A definition is not obligated to "explain" something to which it does not pertain. The only thing required of a definition of religion is that it be capable of distinguishing between what is religion and what is not. That we are currently forced to speak of "bad" religion (which implicitly suggests that it's not really what we want to mean by religion) is just more evidence of its inadequate definition.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Religion is a belief or series of related beliefs that attempt to explain the totality of our relationships with the world/universe around us.

In that case, I would like to propose a religion based on the belief that the Universe was created by a noodle and that a good relationship with the world around us requires us to conduct ourselves with a sufficient degree of social vinegar in order that we don't become stuck together (some people may already believe in this religion), with garlic bread dipped in marinara sauce as its sacrament.

Damn, now I'm hungry.

K.




MercTech -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 8:53:33 PM)

I'm reminded of something my grandfather told a evangelist.

"Yes, I certainly believe in your right to worship as your please. I also believe that right ends at my property line."




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