RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism"

RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (Full Version)

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fucktoyprincess -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/12/2014 10:57:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle So what is a 'religion' and what's not? Who defines? Are people allowed to self define? If self definition is invalid, on what basis do others make their definitions? To me, it looks as if the goalposts are forever sliding and shifting. What should I understand to be meant by the term 'religious' and what is excluded? Here is how it is defined in the U.S. quote: "Freedom of religion means freedom to hold an opinion or belief, but not to take action in violation of social duties or subversive to good order," Chief Justice Waite wrote in Reynolds v. United States (1878). The U.S. Court found that while laws cannot interfere with religious belief and opinions, laws can be made to regulate some religious practices, e.g., human sacrifices, and the Hindu practice of suttee. The Court stated that to rule otherwise, "would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect permit every citizen to become a law unto himself. Government would exist only in name under such circumstances."[24] In Cantwell v. State of Connecticut the Court held that the free exercise of religion is one of the “liberties” protected by the due process clause of the 14th Amendment and thus applied it to the states. The freedom to believe is absolute, but the freedom to act is not absolute.[25] So people can believe whatever they want. They don't have to justify in any way, shape, or form that it is recognized by others as a religion. But the moment their beliefs and the exercise thereof bump up against others, they do not have absolute protection to go and act in any way possible. Their freedom to do things which harm others has to be weighed against both the rights of other people and governmental interests. Under this definition AQ is absolutely a religion. But that doesn't mean they get to go around bombing and killing without repercussion. Those Americans on this thread who think religion can be defined narrowly are 100% WRONG. [sm=2cents.gif]

Kirata -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/12/2014 1:39:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess Here is how it is defined in the U.S. For your information, that is not a definition of religion. And if you consult several different dictionaries, you will find that they vary. quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess Those Americans on this thread who think religion can be defined narrowly are 100% WRONG. As Tweak has noted, religion means different things to different people. And for your further information, not just among Americans. K.

kdsub -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/12/2014 2:11:24 PM)
If Religion means different things to different people then how can you agree with anything tweak says when she equates racism all encompassing with religion as in the header of her thread? As if all religions are anti gay and all those of faith that believe in a religion are as well. Butch

Kirata -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/12/2014 2:25:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub If Religion means different things to different people then how can you agree with anything tweak says when she equates racism all encompassing with religion as in the header of her thread? As if all religions are anti gay and all those of faith that believe in a religion are as well. Tweak was quoting somebody else, and I don't agree. But I also think our definitions of religion are worthless, because in the final analysis they mostly devolve into being anything any nut can get a dozen or so people to believe. K.

kdsub -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/12/2014 2:30:02 PM)
I am curious Kirata what do you think should be a meaningful definition? Butch

fucktoyprincess -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/12/2014 2:38:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess Here is how it is defined in the U.S. For your information, that is not a definition of religion. And if you consult several different dictionaries, you will find that they vary. quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess Those Americans on this thread who think religion can be defined narrowly are 100% WRONG. As Tweak has noted, religion means different things to different people. And for your further information, not just among Americans. K. The definition is completely compatible with the idea that religion means different things to different people. The fact that you think it means something different suggests some intolerance on your part. The point is, if religion can mean different things to different people YOU can't define it NARROWLY. You seem to be trying to say that other people have the right to define what religion is for other people. NO. That is exactly what, in America, because we have freedom of religion, we don't allow. In the U.S. religion is defined to be accepting of the widest possible range of beliefs possible (the only way it can be if freedom of religion actually means anything). Contrary to what you think, YOU are not allowed to tell someone else that their beliefs are NOT a religion. You can only define what YOUR religion means to YOU and in the U.S. you have the widest possible leeway to define it BUT ONLY FOR YOURSELF NOT FOR OTHERS who are not part of your faith. It seems to me that you actually think YOU can define religion for OTHERS. You actually believe you can, based on your personal definition of religion, tell others that what they believe is NOT a religion. And who exactly gave YOU this incredible right to dictate what a religion is to others? I now see that the narrow definitions you insist on using for things like religion and need are based on the misconception that somehow your sense of whether something is religion or not should apply to others. A person's beliefs are their beliefs and under the Constitution it can be their religion. Tolerance implies that your personal definition can NEVER hold for other people. And that is exactly how the U.S. Constitution approaches it - that each person can define their personal beliefs. No where is it implied that that definition could or should mean anything to someone else.

Kirata -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/12/2014 2:55:07 PM)
[image]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/27/TheOuterLimits-Screenshot-old.jpg[/image] K.

Kirata -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/12/2014 4:13:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub I am curious Kirata what do you think should be a meaningful definition? Well leaving aside the "should," and probably too briefly but better than not at all... Our word religion comes from the Latin re-ligio. There are some varying opinions on its derivation, but the consensus seems to align with a view that tracks from Lactantius through St. Augustine and all the way up to Joseph Campbell, namely, that it comes from re+ligare (from which we get our word "ligature") meaning to join, to bind together. In Sanskrit, the word is yoga, meaning to join, to yoke together. And in both cases the reference is to the joining of the individual with All That Is, the particular with that Universal in which or in whom all life is united. Neither requires that you "believe in" anything; they are methods of bringing you to that realization and reflecting it in your life. So in my opinion, for whatever may be worth, no teaching or practice that serves to divide creation, to separate man from Nature, or to set him against his neighbor, can properly be called religious. And I'll confess to thinking that it would save the world a lot of strife, and copious amounts of blood in the bargain, if more people shared that view. K.

GotSteel -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/12/2014 4:53:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Not gay marriage... I am talking about gays in general...Homophobia is NOT exclusive to those who are spiritual. Butch You're right it's not completely exclusive, it's just almost completely exclusive to the religious.

Kirata -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/12/2014 5:24:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Not gay marriage... I am talking about gays in general...Homophobia is NOT exclusive to those who are spiritual. You're right it's not completely exclusive, it's just *almost completely* exclusive to the religious. A Pew Research poll dated June 2013 found that 60% of Americans say that homosexuality should be accepted, and among the only 31% who said that homosexuality should be discouraged almost half (48%) reported reasons other than their religious beliefs. wide majorities of Catholics (71%) and white mainline Protestants (65%) say homosexuality should be accepted* by society* Religious Beliefs and Views on Homosexuality K.

Musicmystery -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/12/2014 5:51:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Not gay marriage... I am talking about gays in general...Homophobia is NOT exclusive to those who are spiritual. Butch You're right it's not completely exclusive, it's just almost completely exclusive to the religious. Yeah, Neo-Nazis are known for their religious devotion. [8\|]

fucktoyprincess -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/12/2014 5:59:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata So in my opinion, for whatever may be worth, no teaching or practice that serves to divide creation, to separate man from Nature, or to set him against his neighbor, can properly be called religious. K. [/font][/size] This definition does not even encompass Christianity or Islam. Are you saying neither Christianity nor Islam is a religion? And if you are saying that two of the major belief systems on the face of this planet are not actually religions then you are suggesting that over 50% of the world's population is claiming something as a religion that should not be. And who exactly are YOU to dictate that. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll stick to the definition that is Constitutionally accepted in the U.S. One that embraces all religions and belief systems. The goal is to find a way to peacefully co-exist while still trying to preserve some protections for the religious. Your definition does NOT accomplish that. You're telling over 50% of the world's populations that their entire belief system is NOT a religion. How very tolerant of you!

GotSteel -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/12/2014 6:28:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery Yeah, Neo-Nazis are known for their religious devotion. [8\|] Yep.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/12/2014 6:35:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata But I also think our definitions of religion are worthless, because in the final analysis they mostly devolve into being anything any nut can get a dozen or so people to believe. K. You do realize, don't you, that EVERY religion starts this way….again who are YOU to decide for others.* Who is the intolerant one here? e.g. Jesus and the Apostles

Kirata -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 4:52:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata in my *opinion... who exactly are YOU to dictate*... [8\|] K.

Yachtie -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 5:09:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata in my *opinion... who exactly are YOU to dictate*... [8\|] K. This is definitely a [sm=popcorn.gif] moment.

DaddySatyr -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 5:14:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata in my *opinion... who exactly are YOU to dictate*... [8\|] K. This is definitely a [sm=popcorn.gif] moment. There's been a lot of this going on, lately. I think the very nature of forums like this is that people give their opinions. There are a couple of thread titles that specifically ask for opinions. Then, you give an opinion and don't "tap dance" and "kiss every ass you might possibly offend" as a preamble and people accuse you of dictating. I think it is funny though that Kirata did engage in the dance ("In my opinion ...") but was cast as the "bad guy", anyway.

chatterbox24 -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 5:26:36 AM)
I am going to go out on a limb here, Yachtie, you may need to get more popcorn[:D] ( hearing distant chainsaws) This may anger a few people, or a lot. What does antigay mean to you? You may think that I am anti gay. I will not be one to vote for gay marriage. If I vote as such, it means I believe that it is okay. Its none of my business who one loves, and nor their sexual practices. It is your right. I can be friends, I can treat you with respect, but I can not vote that I want it to be all accepting. Most likely it will be voted in by the majority in the future, it will not be an issue anymore. I can tell you this though, I would never watch nor participate nor allow, if within my power, anyone giving you grief or hurting you. That is unacceptable, and any group or individual who does this, should be stopped or prosecuted. Is this anti gay to you? quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub If Religion means different things to different people then how can you agree with anything tweak says when she equates racism all encompassing with religion as in the header of her thread? As if all religions are anti gay and all those of faith that believe in a religion are as well. Butch

Kirata -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 5:36:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata But I also think our definitions of religion are worthless, because in the final analysis they mostly devolve into being anything any nut can get a dozen or so people to believe. You do realize, don't you, that EVERY religion starts this way* e.g. Jesus and the Apostles Well that's an interesting view. Why do you think Christ was a "nut"? K.

Lucylastic -> RE: "Religion will become as unacceptable as racism" (3/13/2014 5:45:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chatterbox24 I am going to go out on a limb here, Yachtie, you may need to get more popcorn[:D] ( hearing distant chainsaws) This may anger a few people, or a lot. What does antigay mean to you? You may think that I am anti gay. I will not be one to vote for gay marriage. If I vote as such, it means I believe that it is okay. Its none of my business who one loves, and nor their sexual practices. It is your right. I can be friends, I can treat you with respect, but I can not vote that I want it to be all accepting. Most likely it will be voted in by the majority in the future, it will not be an issue anymore. I can tell you this though, I would never watch nor participate nor allow, if within my power, anyone giving you grief or hurting you. That is unacceptable, and any group or individual who does this, should be stopped or prosecuted. Is this anti gay to you? quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub If Religion means different things to different people then how can you agree with anything tweak says when she equates racism all encompassing with religion as in the header of her thread? As if all religions are anti gay and all those of faith that believe in a religion are as well. Butch I can get this..its not your "thing"...for what ever reason, thats cool..seriously However would you vote for banning it? That for me personally is the difference...

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