Did I just create a mess? (Full Version)

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LafayetteLady -> Did I just create a mess? (3/14/2014 11:39:25 PM)

Ok, first I think a little background is needed.

I have two friends who are a couple. They are both my friends outside their "coupledom." They both used to live in my town; her on the other side, him about 2-3 blocks from me. Now they live about a half an hour away in her family home. She has an elderly aunt with various health problems, so they don't go out often. He still has his home here and some responsibilities in this area such as being a volunteer firefighter. For these reasons, he will around once a week or so come back to town, to his home to take care of the house. He wishes she would come with him to our lake community for weekends away and such. She doesn't.

So tonight he called me and said he was in town and asked me if I wanted to have a beer with him. Not as in sneak behind her back, but more as two friends just having a beer. I don't really drink, but being somewhat housebound, I welcomed the opportunity for some company and conversation and really didn't think it was anything but friends having a drink.

I texted my friend and during the conversation mentioned his call and invitation, again, because I didn't think there was any problem with two friends having a drink and catching up. I have also frequently asked her to join him on his weekends here in town so her and I could visit and chat as well.

Well, come to find out, they are fighting. Again. Yes, this is a frequent occurance and I very purposely stay out of the middle, but have listened to them both vent about the other and offer support without ever taking sides with either. They both have wonderful and horrible qualities and when they are venting I remind them each of that. I really do make the effort to stay neutral and offer unbiased opinions. Most of my friends will often talk to me about their problems and I try to offer support. Neither of them are the big "sharing" types, but both do share quite a bit with me. And yes, I have told them both that if they communicated with each other the way they do with me they would probably fight less. Oh and they both are somewhat heavy drinkers. She tends to be a bit of an obnoxious, agressive drunk, him more the quiet type who will talk a bit more when drinking. Their drinking does not affect my life, so I don't really make an issue of it, except on rare occasions.

So enough background and on to the events in question.

He and I were sitting in my living room chatting, him drinking his beer, me my water. Then he got up, picked up my sneakers and began sniffing them. As a former bartender, I tend to not make much of innocuous behavior of those who have been drinking. A little out of character for him as I know him, but hey, we see much stranger here every day, right? Oh and he had zero knowledge of my lifestyle proclivities at all. He commented how my shoes didn't smell stinky and again, I thought nothing of it (my feet are the only thing not affected by this horible hot flahs/nightsweat issue). Then before I even realized what he was doing, he poored beer in my shoe and drank from it.

Ok, so things are getting a little freaky, but still, all things considered not a big deal. I'm just thinking perhaps he had a bit too much to drink. Then he asked if he could kiss my feet! Uh, no you may not. Why not! Because that is crossing the line and boundries that shouldn't be crossed. Even though you are fighting, you are both my firends and kissing my feet is a bit of an intimate type act that will not happen.

Yes, I know that we were venturing into shaky territory. But he then started asking me if I thought he was a. Freak because he like sniffing my shoes. I could see the pain and worry in his face about being considered a freak. time to try to help it out a little. I asked if he had always had a foot fetish and he told me it developed a couple years ago. Again the asking why I didn't think he was a freak. I explained a little about my lifestyle choices and told him that I had heard much odder and unusual (sorry, MDA, but I did tell him about your funeral fetish guy). Compared to what we see hear regulalry, sniffing shoes is no more "freaky" to me than anal sex.

It seems he has recently discovered this about himself and being over fifty and raised strict Catholic, I felt he really needed reassurance that he was not a freak, and did my best to do so. He has never told her about this because of the worry she will freak out, but I still encouraged him to tell her.

I didn't demand that he stop sniffing my shoes. I did repeatedly try to reassure him he wasn't a freak and he needed to tell her. But should I have not let him sniff my shoes? He didn't touch me, and I would never permit it because I do view it as him being unfaithful to her. Still, is letting him sniff my shoes also aiding him in being unfaithful, was it unfaithful? He is just discovering this side of himself and I really don't want to make him feel bad about it, because he shouldn't. Should I continue to discuss this stuff with him and help him become more comfortable and secure in his feelings about it? I did promise I wouldn't tell her. I don't think she should learn this from anyone but him and as there is no intimate contact, I really don't hink its my place to tell her about his fetish.

Crap, this is a mess and disaster waiting to happen, isn't it?



LadyPact -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/14/2014 11:48:42 PM)

You didn't create the mess, but I think it's a mess waiting to happen.

I think you're still in the "OK" zone. The shoes are different than the feet. Had it been your feet? No. Not cool.

Maybe the next time you guys get a beer? Get one in public. You can be his friend without being his fetish.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 12:31:25 AM)

This is exactly what I was thinking. The feet bring an intimacy to it inmy mind and apparently yours as well (comforting to know by the way).

I'm wondering if he had just a bit too much and in the morning it will all be forgotten.

I think my main issue is that I don't want to him to continue to have to think he is a freak and also to tell her about this recent new desire. I spent a goodish amount of time telling him that he should tell her and wouldn't it be wondrful if they could share this with each other.

I honestly thought he was going to stop in, have one beer, chat a bit and then head off to a nearby watering hole.

Of course, I might subconsciously like the concept of seeing him embrace his feelings and accept them as nowhere near being a freak. I can't deny that seeing this submissiveness in my big, burly "Billy Goat Gruff, type of friend was kind of fascinating. Not in an arousing way for me at all. He is involved with my friend I don't see him in a romantic sense at all. But he's really a gruff kind of guy and there was something from like a psychological viewpoint that was really interesting to see. Is that weird? I have a friend who is a sort of "service only" type submissive to me, but his "real world" personality is very quiet and submissive in nature, so with him, it is simply an extension of who he is. With this friend it is like a complete opposite of his "real world" personality.

I know many of the ladies here see that kind of thing much more often than me, so it might not be sointeresting. But in my life, it is quite unique and therefore fascinating.

I did tell him explicitly that he needs to consider that while there is no sex or intimate contact it very likely could be considered a form of cheating.



Rawni -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 1:48:00 AM)

Stop sign.

You are friends with them both. You are now in the middle. I would set very firm boundaries and let him find his way into his interest on his own, other than a suggestion of a book or something. He needs to leave you out of this because you are friends with his wife and it could get real complicated. He isn't the first man to discover something about himself and not tell his wife. Until he does tell her, you need to stay back and out of it in my opinion. I would be exiting so fast you would feel the wind below my wings.

You can't be part of his 'secret' or you risk the chance of this coming back at you with a nasty drunk lady that has found out something you said to him... when he gets drunk and says a bit more than he intends to.

Run. Seriously... you are not responsible for assisting any kinky friend that has put you in an awkward position. Like I said... give him some book titles or tell him about a site, you are NOT on and let him explore his own path... because if you get involved... without her... this will look worse than it is. Take it from a drunk's point of view and go from there, because that could be when you deal with each of them and what comes next.

Good luck with this one.



crazyml -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 1:56:31 AM)

Argh... what a horrid situation.

Honestly, I think you were too easy going.

quote:

Then before I even realized what he was doing, he poored beer in my shoe and drank from it.


This is where you should have read him his horoscope.

While I appreciate that a shoe is just a shoe and all, that's the point at which he chose to impose his kink on you (and potentially fuck up a shoe).

Stuff like this doesn't need to cause the end of the friendship, but... you'd have been totally ok saying something like "What the fuck? We're friends for pete's sake, that doesn't give you liberty to get your rocks off over me or my shoes!... Now fuck off and come round tomorrow morning with a sheepish expression on your face, a fulsome apology and a promise never to do something like that again".



Rawni -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 2:02:36 AM)

I'd have picked his wallet to replace my shoes. [:D] Then tied him up, smacked the shit out of him, then when he sobered up, gave him a lecture he would never forget to send him packing with.

But then I am not a nice neighbor. [;)]



DaddySatyr -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 2:09:56 AM)

I think it is a huge mess and setting aside the ramifications of his new, "mid-life-crisis" discoveries, one of you should tell his lady about the incident.

Whether with your consent or not, he involved you in his new-found kink and she is not aware. Not cool.

I would sit him down and tell him that he has two weeks (at most) to tell her about the incident; just the incident. It's none of your business if he goes into the details of his new direction. If he doesn't tell her in that time, I believe it is on you to do so.

If one of you doesn't tell her ETA ... and she finds out on her own, right or wrong, she will view it as deception and betrayal. She'd be justified on the former and possibly even on the latter.






MissMorrigan -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 2:52:47 AM)

You facilitated him in crossing the line.

You weren't in a bar and he wasn't carried away by rowdy behaviour, this was a one-to-one personal situation and you sat back and watched him as he firstly started sniffing your shoes, highlighting his fetish and by then he's already sexed up, and you continued watching as he poured his beer into your shoe and drank it. How else did you think that was going to end?

Mess created. Shower yourself off and avoid like the plague.

Edited to add: I know a lot of shoe/foot fetishists. When friends visit they aren't indulged, they're not permitted to check out my shoe collection or discuss my feet as I know from experience that they are working themselves into the zone should they broach the subject.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 3:03:37 AM)

I do agree it had to be a one time thing. As for the shoe, its a sneaker and not ruined. Honestly I turned my head for just a moment and turned back and he was drinking out of it, not something I could have prevented. Sunday I will give them to my friend to throw in the washe for me.

CrazyML and Rawni,

Yes I'm pretty laid back and I rarely see a need to get nasty about something like that. But I probably could have found a firm, but polite way to get his nose out of my shoe. I was a bit flabbergasted because it is one of the last things I would suspect of this person.

They aren't married just for clarity sake. Because they both vent to me I'm always somewhat in the middle although whatever one says to me is between them and I, just like if one of them were a friend through the couple and she vented to me or vice versa, there is nothing to be gained by anyone by teling either what the others tells me in confidence.

I have strongly encouraged him to tell her, however, I certainly can't force him to share this with her. An ultimatum is astupid thing to do, just as telling her if he doesn't. He didn't make a pass at m. Yes he did something inappropriate, and I am dealing with that. However, my experience with the whole tell one partner about the other is that I've yet to not see in backfire. Especially when there was no intimate contact. There is nothing to be gained except hurting two people I care about by telling her he has a foot fetish. Because that's essentially all there is to tell. If he had told me he wanted to check out my closet, confiding he was a cross dresser and she didn't know, I wouldn't tell her that either. Being completely forthright about everything is a fools game. I am a brutally honest person. But there are times when being so is not the right thing to do. I realize some on these boards kid themselves that telling someone everything is a great policy, but I disagree. Weighing out the "offense" and the ramifications being justified is a much saner and reasonable approach.

There is much involved in my decision to tell her that goes beyond this event. I'm not sure she could accept his "mid life crisis" (which it isn't and is just a piss poor judgement of the situation). The possibility of her having issues with his fetish and verbally abusing him for it is not far off the mark. So, the reality is that telling her isn't going to cause him retrribution for a betrayal, but rather for being a freaky wierdo. No one deserves to be psycholgically damaged what he has discovered about himself. I'm sure she would be angry at me, but I can deal with that. Even if I were as offeneded as some of you are, its callous and ignorant to cause psychological damage because of that. Even if his drinking out of my shoes seriously pissed me off, and I never wanted to speak to him again, I wouldn't do that to anyone.

I do think I can offer him guidance without further event happening though. He has no clue how to use a computer (LP he makes you look like a programmer. Really), so sites would be good. He has no idea what site I'm on anyway.

Guess I've mellowed inmy old age. The next time we talk. I will tell him it can't happen again. But I see no reao exacerbate things.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 3:25:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I'm not sure she could accept his "mid life crisis" (which it isn't and is just a piss poor judgement of the situation).



Yeah, where would I have gotten the idea that this was a "mid-life crisis"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

It seems he has recently discovered this about himself and being over fifty and raised strict Catholic, I felt he really needed reassurance that he was not a freak, and did my best to do so.



Yeah, I don't know anyone that would consider that "mid-life crisis" stuff. [8D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

The possibility of her having issues with his fetish and verbally abusing him for it is not far off the mark. So, the reality is that telling her isn't going to cause him retrribution for a betrayal, but rather for being a freaky wierdo. No one deserves to be psycholgically damaged what he has discovered about himself. I'm sure she would be angry at me, but I can deal with that. Even if I were as offeneded as some of you are, its callous and ignorant to cause psychological damage because of that. Even if his drinking out of my shoes seriously pissed me off, and I never wanted to speak to him again, I wouldn't do that to anyone.



I specifically said that his proclivities didn't need to part of the discussion. In fact, I said:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I think it is a huge mess and setting aside the ramifications of his new, "mid-life-crisis" discoveries, one of you should tell his lady about the incident.



I went on to say, specifically:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I would sit him down and tell him that he has two weeks (at most) to tell her about the incident; just the incident. It's none of your business if he goes into the details of his new direction. If he doesn't tell her in that time, I believe it is on you to do so.



I think that he did "make a pass at you":

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Ok, so things are getting a little freaky, but still, all things considered not a big deal. I'm just thinking perhaps he had a bit too much to drink. Then he asked if he could kiss my feet! Uh, no you may not. Why not! Because that is crossing the line and boundries that shouldn't be crossed. Even though you are fighting, you are both my firends and kissing my feet is a bit of an intimate type act that will not happen.



Is it only a "pass" if he asks to kiss your lips?

Sorry. I think the guy was out of line and would have gone as far as you'd have let him go and your friend deserves to know.







LadyConstanze -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 4:03:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

You didn't create the mess, but I think it's a mess waiting to happen.

I think you're still in the "OK" zone. The shoes are different than the feet. Had it been your feet? No. Not cool.

Maybe the next time you guys get a beer? Get one in public. You can be his friend without being his fetish.




This...

And yeah ruining your shoe is not cool.

I would certainly avoid being alone with him, direct him to FL or something, but ultimately you aren't the one to deal with his new found fetish, he has no right to drag you into the middle of all of this.



ChatteParfaitt -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 5:32:47 AM)

FR

YOU did not create the mess, he did.

You should have had firmer boundaries, but I wouldn't beat myself up about that one too much, it was an odd, off the wall situation and you didn't have a lot of time to react.

It's only in retrospect that we can easily see that he crossed some boundaries and you let him. Have a talk with him making your position as to his new found kink *very* clear.

Unlike some others, I don't think he has to tell his gf and I don't think it's your job to make him. You should most strongly suggest it of course. But in the end it's his life and how he deals with his gf is up to him. You already know they have issues, so take some big steps back on that. You are already in the position of 'moderator' and I'd back off from that as much as you can.

So, it happened, you'll think hard and create some good boundaries and communicate them to him, that's it. No harm no foul, you know?

Things happen in life we didn't prepare for, this is one.



BecomingV -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 5:32:59 AM)

It's good you are thinking this out.

After reading the thread, I feel confirmed in my initial take on your OP. You have a friend who is a guy. He has a girlfriend that you are friendly-ish towards, but you really don't respect or trust her. She's more like a sometimes enjoyable in-law, to you. Your friendship and your loyalty is his.

A friend revealed a new layer of himself to you. Then he acted it out. Now, after the fact, you are not loving the experience.

So, the question becomes, "What do you want to do or say to build this friendship from this point on?"

You did write that there is so much more to this in terms of your history with the woman friend. So, okay, maybe I'm missing something. If she really is a friend - one you respect, trust and offer your loyalty, then you need to ask yourself the same question about you and her.

If she is more an acquaintance and not so much your friend, then I do not see that you have any responsibility to her, directly. Issues of cheating would be handled by you, with her boyfriend / your friend.

It's not so much a mess as it is growth. Your guy friend took his mask off and now you see more of the real him.

Unless I'm missing something in the tone here. Was he being flirty? Was it sexual? The actions alone tell me that you both have a boundary to discuss, for your friendship. But, as DaddySatyr said... I consider what you've written about this to fit the concept of making a pass.

I think that may be why you felt stirred up enough to write about this here. But, LadyL, are you leaving something unsaid, and undone, but definitely felt, out of this?

ETA - deleted OP quote



DarkSteven -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 5:39:11 AM)

1. I feel uncomfortable about him being in your house, just the two of you alone. Especially with both of them drinking so much, you have a large possibility of him interpreting something differently than you, and if she interrogates him, of her getting a still more distorted view. I play with women occasionally at my house, and my sub is always here and aware and usually participating. She and I trust each other 100%, but I don't want a chance of misinterpretation. In your situation, there's a HUGE chance of misinterpretation, and the consequences of it would be horrendous.

2. Him telling you that he has a foot fetish is fine IF he's talking to you as a friend. It's not fine IF he's coming on to you. It sounds like you yourself aren't certain which one it is.

3. Never do things nonconsensually or touch others' playthings. The minute he poured the beer in your shoe and drank from it, it went from a very problematic situation to one that was over the line.

You are certainly not blameless. You broke several commonsense rules. You had an attached man with you alone at your place, with him drinking. And you knew the relationship was in trouble. Why are you surprised at what happened? I'd be more surprised if something like it didn't happen. Not to mention that he likely drove home drunk that night. And now, thanks to your telling him that you know all kinds of freaky fetish people, he's likely looking at you as his dirty little secret, his fetish-buddy.

So now you've got to fix things. BEFORE they blow up, and it sounds like they're close to doing so if they haven't already.

Call him up. Tell him that you like him as a friend, but his fetishes belong IN the relationship, not OUTSIDE of it.
Encourage both of them to get couples counseling. This should have been done long ago anyway. (If there's any way to steer them to a kink-friendly counselor, do it.)
Quit thinking of him as the poor guy with the fetish that he can't talk about. He's a cheater waiting to happen, and you're setting yourself up in his eyes as the woman to do it with.

Dropping them both as friends might be a very real possibility now.



PeonForHer -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 5:40:06 AM)

I'd strongly suspect that he knew what kind of position he was putting you in. A bit of sternness required, I think.



DaronRames -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 5:45:36 AM)

Indeed, this is a mess.
But you are not stopping the mess. And by not stopping it, you're allowing it to become much bigger and much worse.

From your backstory it seems that you have always been in the middle ...maybe a step or two closer to his side though.
You don't have to tell her the truth, but you don't have to give him guidance either... yet you seem inclined to doing so.
You seem to more concerned with how this will affect him, than her.
Lastly, the guy made a pass at you by asking to commit an intimate act with you, but you dismiss it.

I believe everyone here is giving you solid, usable advice.




LadyConstanze -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 6:14:42 AM)

DS, I absolutely and very strongly disagree with this:

quote:

You are certainly not blameless. You broke several commonsense rules. You had an attached man with you alone at your place, with him drinking. And you knew the relationship was in trouble. Why are you surprised at what happened? I'd be more surprised if something like it didn't happen. Not to mention that he likely drove home drunk that night. And now, thanks to your telling him that you know all kinds of freaky fetish people, he's likely looking at you as his dirty little secret, his fetish-buddy.


Sorry, we aren't living in the middle ages anymore, a woman CAN have a male over without fear of getting stoned or being blamed if the guy steps out of line. Ask yourself if the situation was different, for example you were in her shoes and a male friend would have been over, said male friend would be gay and in a relationship...

Really, I mean if the same thing happened to you then, wouldn't you also be surprised? So WHY is it different?

The driving home drunk this evening crossed my mind, but she said 2 blocks away in the initial post, so I just assume that he walked home. Seriously, she is not the guardian of how much somebody does drink, the guy is an adult, it didn't sound like he got drunk at her house but already arrived a bit drunk and then had another beer there.

This is a guy who didn't respect boundaries and blaming it on the woman he approached is victim blaming. LL was in her own home, she had a right to feel safe in her own home, with a buddy she's known for ages and she knows is attached.

OK, she might not have made the best choices, but he sprung it at her out of the blue, if you're surprised you don't always make the best choices, you just react, she reacted as well as she could. Pushing the responsibility for a man's out of line behaviour on a woman is more along the lines of the Taliban, where they also tend to stone the victims of rape and to be honest, as a woman it does piss me off, A LOT.



evesgrden -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 6:20:01 AM)

I can understand your reluctance to give him the ultimatum that may result in you telling your friend rather than he doing so.

However, you can tell him that you will not see him alone unless he tells her what's happened. If he chooses not to, then the only way he will see you again is if she is there too.

Period.

Hindsight of course is 20/20, but when you first saw him drinking from your shoe you should have read him the riot act. WTF... you do that with your partner's shoe(s), NOT MINE. Are you a freak, no. Are you an asshole YES.


Do you really think he hasn't looked up foot fetish online and believes he's an oddity? That he lives with someone and hasn't sniffed her shoes? That they both drink and this never came up in any fashion?

In this day and age I would view that with some serious skepticism. Possible but.............


good luck.



kalikshama -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 6:26:18 AM)

He DID make a pass at you, and if you let him, he will put his emotional energy into you and bombard you with fetish questions...in secret.



Killerangel -> RE: Did I just create a mess? (3/15/2014 6:36:53 AM)

He definitely crossed a line by using you nonconsentually in his fetish, does it really matter why, or how he did it? Does it really matter if he's had "too much to drink"- is that ever an excuse? If another woman on these boards told you that a male friend of theirs took an intimate article that they've worn much and used it in front of them as a personal fetish vehicle…what would you say?

What he did wasn't ok, it was a flagrant breaking of boundaries, and you've made several excuses for him. The moment he picked up your shoes and sniffed them, making comments on the odor, you should have stopped it as you were getting into territory where platonic friends don't go.

It isn't your responsibility to usher him gently into the world of kink. If he feels rejected, maybe he should, he flagrantly crossed some fairly large boundaries and didn't even think of you when he decided abruptly to get his kink on. If he feels unaccepted as a result of his actions…oh well. That's maybe the price you pay when you go around taking people's shoes to smell and drink out of. Maybe as his friend, you should let him know that his kink is something to be appropriate with - what gets his dick hard is for private times only. The fact that he didn't even consider that he was perhaps destroying your property when he drank out of your shoe is really selfish and kind of concerning. It doesn't matter if the shoe isn't ruined, it matters that he never thought about the fact that it could be.



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