RE: Justified use of deadly force

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[Poll]

Justified use of deadly force

Prevent a rape

16% (27)

Prevent bodily injury to self or family member

17% (28)

Protect home from intruders

11% (18)

Protect private property.

3% (6)

Protect self from armed attack

18% (30)

Protect self from attack

14% (23)

Finding an intruder in your home

8% (14)

Stop a trespasser

2% (4)

Stop someone attempting to break into your home.

5% (9)

Total Votes : 159

(last vote on : 3/25/2014 8:09:38 AM)
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RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 7:22:34 PM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Agreed killing, no matter how justified, it NEVER to be taken lightly something that has to be taken
into account before carrying.

Do you really think most people consider this?

I would guess most sane people do NOT think about using their weapon to kill someone and never consider it... They think of it as a tool to defend themselves in an emergency. Even though killing may be the result they do not visualize doing it....and will do everything they can not to kill. We only hear the outlandish results because it sells in the news...not because it is what most often happens in real life. To me this gives a false impression of what is the right way to handle these type of encounters.

Butch

It has been implied in another thread that a man who shot a 17 year old was pleased that he got to shoot an intruder.

That kind of implies the anti gun person feels that people that own guns has a few things lacking in their emotional make up, such as:

1) Compassion
2) A sense of remorse
3) Any emotion or feeling other than "Hell yeah, I got to kill a mother fucker! Yippee, give me a beer and call the boys we need to have a celebration."

Unfortunately, many anti gun people on these boards seem to have the same opinion.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 41

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 7:23:38 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

What they should be considering is how they will keep the weapon away from children...how they should use locks at all times... how they should store the weapon and ammunition in different locations...How they will get the proper instruction on how to use the weapon... and most of all.... Do they really need a weapon for self defense in the first place.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 42

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 7:25:39 PM

MercTech

Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline

Have you ever noticed that the firearm deaths statistics include both legal and unlawful weapons? The woman that shoots a rapist is lumped with the gang banger doing a drive-by on a house full of kids.

Have you ever noticed that the homicide rate is comparable in most of the civilized countries whether they have gun control or not?

Naaa, a lot of people know what they know and don't want to be confused by facts.

__________________________________________________________________

The U.S. is the only country that ever put a right to keep and bear arms into its fundamental laws. Many of our founding fathers insisted on this as a final check on tyranny.

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 43

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 7:27:33 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
How about FIRST the 90 lb woman get in a firing stance then yell stop or I will shoot... or are you going to blast away while he is on the woman... better hope the round doesn't kill them both.

There are alternatives always....and not trying them can, as we have seen in another thread, turn a good deed into a tragedy.

Butch

Butch, for every one of these threads that I've spoken up and said there would be circumstances that I have said I would shoot, unless I'm mistaken, I've never said it would be the very first thing I would do.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 44

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 7:28:59 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

The question is flawed, as kdsub pointed out.

Yes. I would query the use of the term 'deadly force' instead of just 'force'.

In situations where force is justified, the level of force used should be the minimum necessary to stop whatever violation is occurring. 'Deadly force' becomes a legitimate option when all other levels of force prove insufficient.

Without this distinction, we run the risk of engaging in an exercise to approve others' Dirty Harry fantasies.

_____________________________

(in reply to crazyml)

Post #: 45

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 7:33:35 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I don't know about others motives I only want responsible gun owners to stop defending every yahoo in the news that kills with a gun simply because they are also gun owners. This wild west yee haw attitude is wrong and in the long run MAY cause a backlash that restricts guns all the more.

The gun lobby should be in the forefront in gun safety...training... and back ground checking. They should be condemning these yahoos instead of defending them... This is my opinion.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/17/2014 7:35:22 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 46

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 7:36:29 PM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

You should have put never up there... Deadly force is never justified when there is an alternative.

On the surface that sounds all fine and good. Some issues though:

How viable does the alternative have to be? Does the alternative have to provide you with a 50% chance of preventing what deadly force should have prevented? 25%? 75%?

How much time should the person considering deadly force be required to consider these options while under stress?

(For point of reference, states that have a requirement to retreat as an alternative, only require it if you can be sure retreat is possible in absolute safety to yourself and those under your protection. This is IMO how it should be.)

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 47

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 7:37:40 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

Raiikum...common sense will work just fine.

Butcgh

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 48

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 7:47:02 PM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Personally, I find the requirement that an armed person must retreat in the presence of crime to be repugnant.

So you are a 90 lb woman, armed with a gun, watching a 200 lb man rape someone else. You are morally obligated to retreat instead of intervening?

And since when were you appointed judge, jury and executioner of justice??

^^ ^^

Who appointed you Proclaimer Of What Is Right?

Even in the US you have law enforcement, judges, juries and courts of justice.
Your constitution doesn't say that every citizen is above the law and morally obligated to behave in such a manner.

And in the US, law enforcement, judges, courts, etc, could (and should) find that woman justified in using deadly force to prevent the rape.

Those trying to claim that it makes her "judge/jury/executioner" when in actuality it'd be a human being trying to protect another human being, speaks more to their own mindset than that of those they're trying to denigrate.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 49

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 7:54:09 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

The problem LadyPact is there are people who have shot first...and when this is pointed out as irresponsible they are defended by people on this site and by the NRA. I am not against using a weapon for defense but i am against this attitude that gun owners can do no wrong...Even if legal under the law...a sick flawed law to boot.

I only express my opinions not expecting to change closed minds but I am hoping it may make someone think before they pull the trigger and kill unnecessarily.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/17/2014 7:56:03 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 50

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 8:06:14 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
The problem LadyPact is there are people who have shot first...and when this is pointed out as irresponsible they are defended by people on this site and by the NRA. I am not against using a weapon for defense but i am against this attitude that gun owners can do no wrong...Even if legal under the law...a sick flawed law to boot.

I only express my opinions not expecting to change closed minds but I am hoping it may make someone think before they pull the trigger and kill unnecessarily.

Butch

When certain threads come up, I do the best I can to try to be in the other person's shoes. I admit that I do so from My gender, stature, etc. For example, if someone would break into My house, there's really only so far I can go if someone was attempting to harm Me. The police station is pretty darn close to Me, but it's still going to take them more time to get here than an intruder could get up the stairs.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 51

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 8:14:14 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

Common sense LadyPact that is all I ask... I believe if given the chance you would hold the intruder at gun point until the police came... I also believe if given no choice you would shoot and I would agree with both choices as being correct...but I hope you would try the first option if possible.

But if the upstairs neighbor had the music too loud to suite you and when you asked them to lower it they told you to get screwed... even took a swing at you... would you pull your weapon and shoot them?

Believe me if there were a story like this on the broads... wait there was I forgot... many here would be defending the shooter... and they did...and that is wrong.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/17/2014 8:20:27 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 52

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 8:29:22 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Common sense LadyPact that is all I ask... I believe if given the chance you would hold the intruder at gun point until the police came... I also believe if given no choice you would shoot and I would agree with both choices as being correct...but I hope you would try the first option if possible.

But if the upstairs neighbor had the music too loud to suite you and when you asked them to lower it they told you to get screwed... even took a swing at you... would you pull your weapon and shoot them?

Believe me if there were a story like this on the broads... wait there was I forgot... many here would be defending the shooter... and they did...and that is wrong.

Butch

I remember the case, it was similar to the Dunn case but took place in Texas,
I thought both should be convicted, and I don't recall anyone defending either person
although many did rebuke the argument that both were caused by SYG.
We and the law said it did not cover them in either case.
The only argument was about the knee jerk reaction some had saying it proved SYG did not
work when the convictions proved the exact opposite.
And yes I know that Dunn is awaiting retrial on the murder count but any claim of SYG protection went out the window a long time ago.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 53

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 8:32:51 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

I know, Butch. I think that's why we can talk about these things reasonably, even though we have different opinions from time to time.

If an intruder would hold, I'd hope so, too. If that person would advance, that's not a holding pattern anymore.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 54

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 8:36:06 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I know, Butch. I think that's why we can talk about these things reasonably, even though we have different opinions from time to time.

If an intruder would hold, I'd hope so, too. If that person would advance, that's not a holding pattern anymore.

Unless "common sense" says you have to wait until they attack (give them first strike)

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 55

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 8:36:59 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I am talking about the Florida case...and I am not about to start it again....and in another thread active now there was a victim blamed for his own death because he was an asshole...pitiful.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 56

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 8:39:37 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
Unless "common sense" says you have to wait until they attack (give them first strike)

Unfortunately, I might end up taking My chances in court. It would scare Me, but jail is better than death.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 57

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 8:39:46 PM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

I would shoot as well in those circumstances... but see how Bama refuses to even consider trying to hold the intruder at gunpoint for the police if possible.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 58

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 8:45:29 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I know, Butch. I think that's why we can talk about these things reasonably, even though we have different opinions from time to time.

If an intruder would hold, I'd hope so, too. If that person would advance, that's not a holding pattern anymore.

I agree it would be much better to hold them for the police than to shoot them.
Have had this happen in my yard and they, after trying to work close to me took off
when I placed my hand on my firearm didn't even have to pull it.
Talking and being "reasonable" was only letting him get close enough that I was facing hand to hand against someone half my age who didn't
have arthritis or diabetes.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 59

RE: Justified use of deadly force - 3/17/2014 8:47:04 PM

MercTech

Posts: 3706
Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline

Just for reverence:

Chart of worldwide homicide rates

http://chartsbin.com/view/1454

Raw data on murder rates from Word Bank

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/VC.IHR.PSRC.P5

Gun ownership and gun homicide by country. (No, it isn't the NRA it's from the Guardian)

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

_______________________________________________________________________________

The first intentional death I ever saw was a death by fire-hose.

There were five of us loaded, aimed, and awaiting the signal from the officer trying to talk the kid down that had grabbed a fire axe and attacked three people already.
Meanwhile the XO had ordered the crew to rig out and charge a 2-1/2 inch fire hose with high pressure nozzle. When the kid with the axe charged the LT that had been trying to talk him down; the POIC on the hose-line opened up.
A human body isn't intended to be blown 20 feet across a pier to splatter on the side of a brick building.

Now, without elaborating why the kid broke and attacked people (I flat won't go into it. I knew the kid.), was that homicide justifiable?

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 60

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