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A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 4:39:36 AM   
Marc2b


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Status: offline 		I address this question to everyone but I am particularly interested in the opinions of anyone who has greater knowledge (personal and/or educational) about the situation.

Leaving aside personal feelings about Putin, Russia, the Ukrainians or the power politics of nations, my question is this: Do the Russians, culturally and historically speaking, have a legitimate claim to the Crimea or any other parts of the Ukraine?

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 4:50:38 AM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Let me answer with a question....


If most of Texas voted to succeed to Mexico because most of Texas was spoke Spanish,had a hispanic world view ,etc.......how would America feel about it?


The legalities over there are pretty much the same.One just can`t make their own nation out of another.I feel bad for Kurds or other oppressed minorities anywhere but don`t think starting wars in Turkey and Iraq to do that, is going to help anyone or make things better for anyone...



< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/18/2014 4:51:52 AM >

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 5:19:34 AM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		The population of the Crimea is overwhelmingly ethnic Russians who speak Russian and are Russian identifying. For most of the past several centuries the Crimea has been ruled from Moscow as part of Russia.

There are significant ethnic Ukranian and Tartar minorities, who do not share the ethnic Russians favourable view of rule from Moscow.

So a case can be made that the Crimea is traditionally Russian. However, today's international law (as I understand it) would favour Ukranian control and rule from Kiev.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/18/2014 5:20:28 AM >

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 5:19:53 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I address this question to everyone but I am particularly interested in the opinions of anyone who has greater knowledge (personal and/or educational) about the situation.

Leaving aside personal feelings about Putin, Russia, the Ukrainians or the power politics of nations, my question is this: Do the Russians, culturally and historically speaking, have a legitimate claim to the Crimea or any other parts of the Ukraine?

Simple 1-word answer: No.

Ukraine declared independence in 1918 and Russia gave Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 when it collapsed.
Although Ukraine (as a land territory), Russia, and Crimea have been intertwined for many centuries, Ukraine came into it's own and eventually inherited Crimea from Russia.
From that point on, they were completely divorced from Russia. Ergo, Russia has no claim on the territory whatsoever.



A chronology of key events

1917 - Central Rada (Council) set up in Kiev following collapse of Russian Empire.

1918 - Ukraine declares independence: Ukrainian People's Republic set up. Numerous rival governments vie for control for some or all of Ukraine during ensuing civil war.

1921 - Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic established as Russian Red Army conquers two-thirds of Ukraine. Western third becomes part of independent Poland.

1932 - Approximately 7 million peasants perish in man-made famine during Stalin's collectivisation campaign.

1937 - Mass executions and deportations as Stalin launches purge against intellectuals.

1941 - Ukraine suffers terrible wartime devastation as Nazis occupy the country until 1944. More than 5 million Ukrainians die fighting Nazi Germany. Most of Ukraine's 1.5 million Jews wiped out by the Nazis.

1944 - Stalin deports 200,000 Crimean Tatars to Siberia and Central Asia following accusations of collaboration with Nazi Germany.

1945 - Allied victory in World War II leads to conclusive Soviet annexation of western Ukrainian lands.

1954 - In a surprise move, Soviet leader Nikita Krushchev transfers the Crimean peninsula to Ukraine as a "gift".

Armed resistance to Soviet rule ends with capture of last commander of Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA).

1960s - Increase in covert opposition to Soviet rule, leading to repression of dissidents in 1972.

1986: Soviets admit nuclear accident

1986 - A reactor at the Chernobyl nuclear power station explodes, sending a radioactive plume across Europe. Desperate efforts are made to contain the damaged reactor within a huge concrete cover. Many armed forces personnel die of radiation sickness.

1988 - Prominent writers and intellectuals set up Ukrainian People's Movement for Restructuring (Rukh).

1990 - Student protests and hunger strikes bring down government of Vitaliy Masol.

Independence

1991 - Ukraine declares independence following attempted coup in Moscow: 90% vote for independence in nationwide referendum in December.

Early to mid 1990s - About 250,000 Crimean Tatars and their descendants return to Crimea following collapse of Soviet Union.

1994 - Presidential elections: Leonid Kuchma succeeds Leonid Kravchuk.

1996 - New, democratic constitution adopted. New currency, the hryvna, introduced.

1997 - Friendship treaty signed with Russia. Ukraine and Russia also reach agreement on the Black Sea fleet.


Journalist Georgiy Gongadze was murdered in 2000 1999 - Death penalty abolished. Nationalist leader Vyacheslav Chornovil killed in car crash. President Kuchma re-elected.

2000 - Chernobyl nuclear power plant is shut down, 14 years after the accident. Well over ten thousand people have died as a direct result of the explosion, the health of millions more has been affected.


Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18010123

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 5:23:01 AM   
Marc2b


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quote:

If most of Texas voted to succeed to Mexico because most of Texas was spoke Spanish,had a hispanic world view ,etc.......how would America feel about it?


How we would feel about it is not relevant to the question. Presumably most Americans would be upset but that would just be pride masquerading as patriotism.
(Wow!, I can't believe I just spelled Masquerading correctly on the first try!)


quote:

The legalities over there are pretty much the same.One just can`t make their own nation out of another.I feel bad for Kurds or other oppressed minorities anywhere but don`t think starting wars in Turkey and Iraq to do that, is going to help anyone or make things better for anyone...


As my grandfather used to say, "there are the legalities and then there are the realities." Legalities, like history, are all too often written to benefit the victor. In the example you cited above I would say that the Mexican's do have a legitimate claim (of course, the ultimate claim goes to the Native American tribes who lived there before Europeans showed up). I wouldn't want to dispossess families that live there in order to settle the matter. Texas is a done deal and maybe Ukraine should be to. I'm not interested (as far as this thread is concerned) in whether starting wars is going to help or not (FTR I'm going to go with not), just in whether or not Russia's claim has any legitimacy other than force.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 9:20:18 AM   
Artisculation2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Leaving aside personal feelings about Putin, Russia, the Ukrainians or the power politics of nations, my question is this: Do the Russians, culturally and historically speaking, have a legitimate claim to the Crimea or any other parts of the Ukraine?



They certainly have to the Crimea. Through the USSR Russia gave the Crimea to the Ukraine mainly for administrative reasons, never really expecting the fall of the USSR and hence the independence of Ukraine. The population of the Crimea which is majority Russian never questioned the deal because it was no more controversial than giving a piece of Oregon to California to administer for administrative simplicity say. Given the change in teh circumstances it makes sense to give the people a referendum.

BTW The USA wouldn't allow one of its bases to fall into the hands of a potential enemy.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 12:02:41 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

How we would feel about it is not relevant to the question


Sure it is... it is an excellent comparison but of course it depends on the perspective.

Butch

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 12:11:15 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I address this question to everyone but I am particularly interested in the opinions of anyone who has greater knowledge (personal and/or educational) about the situation.

Leaving aside personal feelings about Putin, Russia, the Ukrainians or the power politics of nations, my question is this: Do the Russians, culturally and historically speaking, have a legitimate claim to the Crimea or any other parts of the Ukraine?

Crimea was part of Russia until 1954 so yes.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 12:29:45 PM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I address this question to everyone but I am particularly interested in the opinions of anyone who has greater knowledge (personal and/or educational) about the situation.

Leaving aside personal feelings about Putin, Russia, the Ukrainians or the power politics of nations, my question is this: Do the Russians, culturally and historically speaking, have a legitimate claim to the Crimea or any other parts of the Ukraine?


Whether they have a "legitimate" claim is open to interpretation. The area in question has changed hands quite a few times over the course of history. Before the Russians had it, it was the Khanate of Crimea, hearkening back to the old days of Mongol rule. Then it was under Turkey for a while before Russia took it over. Turkey and Russia have been centuries-long rivals ever since the Ottoman Turks took over the former capital of the Byzantine Empire, Constantinople (now Istanbul). That was always kind of a sore point for them, as they felt that Constantinople should have remained in Orthodox hands.

The Crimean War was another sore point for them, although the Crimea was fully integrated into the Russian Empire at that point. Livadia Palace was there, which was one of Nicholas II's hangouts. It was also where they held the Yalta Conference.

The other question here is whether Crimea itself has the right to secede from Ukraine and become independent. And why didn't they settle this question back in 1991 when the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic seceded and became independent? Why has this become an issue now? It would be like the U.S. going down to Panama and saying "We want the Canal back." It's too late; we already gave it up.


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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 12:49:24 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Sure it is... it is an excellent comparison but of course it depends on the perspective.


It is not relevant for the purposes of this discussion because how we feel is exactly what I wanted to avoid. Too often emotion trumps reason.

Based upon what I've seen and heard (not just on this thread), it seems to me that Russia's claim, if not her means, is legitimate.

Either way it is a done deal. The West is not about to go to war with a nuclear power over Crimea. It is possible that sanctions and negotiations may reverse the situation but I seriously doubt it. If Putin is smart he will be satisfied with Crimea and leave it at that as further territorial aggression will risk a war (how long before people start screaming "Appeasement!" and start making comparisons to Hitler and Munich?).

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 12:54:59 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		But emotion is what is driving these happening so how can you ignore it... At least emotion from the Ukrainian side anyway. As far as Putin is concerned it is just his desire to restore Russia to her former greatness... also an emotion.

As far as the rest of your post in concerned I agree with you.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 3/18/2014 12:56:04 PM >

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 1:01:08 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

But emotion is what is driving these happening so how can you ignore it... At least emotion from the Ukrainian side anyway. As far as Putin is concerned it is just his desire to restore Russia to her former greatness... also an emotion.


Of course you can't discount emotion in the big picture but I wasn't addressing the big picture with my question, only the narrowly construed question regarding the legitimacy of the claim.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 1:51:00 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I address this question to everyone but I am particularly interested in the opinions of anyone who has greater knowledge (personal and/or educational) about the situation.

Leaving aside personal feelings about Putin, Russia, the Ukrainians or the power politics of nations, my question is this: Do the Russians, culturally and historically speaking, have a legitimate claim to the Crimea or any other parts of the Ukraine?


There is no basis for a claim. If there were a legitimate claim then there would be no reason to use force. This was an invasion followed by a fake referendum to legitimize it. It's not like Ukrainian troops invaded the Crimea and the Russians were forced to send troops in to save everyone. There are Ukrainian troops there because it is legitimate for them to be there.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 4:45:40 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

If there were a legitimate claim then there would be no reason to use force.


I disagree. Good old fashion human greed is a reason to use force. By "legitimately" I think you mean "morally acceptable" and with that I do agree.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 5:28:55 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		Historically speakin the turks have no claim whatsoever to Turkey except if you count conquest as legitimate ownership.
Bite me.
So to be honest first read about the total history of the Crimea and not just the last 100 years. In retrospect a 100 years is like 10 minutes.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 3/18/2014 5:30:32 PM >

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 6:11:48 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I address this question to everyone but I am particularly interested in the opinions of anyone who has greater knowledge (personal and/or educational) about the situation.

Leaving aside personal feelings about Putin, Russia, the Ukrainians or the power politics of nations, my question is this: Do the Russians, culturally and historically speaking, have a legitimate claim to the Crimea or any other parts of the Ukraine?

Crimea was part of Russia until 1954 so yes.


Danzig was part of Germany (Prussia).
The Sudentenland had large numbers of Germans. So did alsace.

Reasons that hitler used to annex these territories. Its like the poles claiming chicago, or the irish claiming boston.

The reasons there are large numbers of russians in crimea is the extirpation and forced resettlement of the indigenous population.

So no, the Russians have no legitimate claim to crimea.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 6:17:49 PM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		Then the turks have no claim to Turkey.Thank you very much.
Americans please pack your bags and resettle in Europe where you fuckin belong.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 7:33:40 PM   
Arturas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Historically speakin the turks have no claim whatsoever to Turkey except if you count conquest as legitimate ownership.
Bite me.
So to be honest first read about the total history of the Crimea and not just the last 100 years. In retrospect a 100 years is like 10 minutes.


Man always makes decisions based on current agreements. The current agreement or treaty is to be enforced or not depending on the cost to enforce it vs. the cost to not enforce it. Once that decision is made then the new situation is the new agreement over time even if it is not in writing. The Crimea is Russian now and the cost to reverse that is too great so it is now the agreement and the status quo until it is no longer due to another treaty or another invader who then changes the agreement. So Russia's ownership of the Crimea in a short time becomes legitimate because there is no challenge. If it were challenged and the Russians forced to leave then their invasion and capture of the Crimea will be judged illegitimate in a short time. Might makes right and always will. Peace is not won by appeasement. It never was.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 7:38:45 PM   
Arturas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Then the turks have no claim to Turkey.Thank you very much.
Americans please pack your bags and resettle in Europe where you fuckin belong.


Good point. So because we won the Indian Wars we now have a legitimate right to America. Might made right. The victor dictates the new treaty terms and enjoys the spoils. The strong overcomes the weak. The Russians look strong now. Stronger than we do.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 7:51:05 PM   
GoddessManko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Then the turks have no claim to Turkey.Thank you very much.
Americans please pack your bags and resettle in Europe where you fuckin belong.


LOL sorry to burst your bubble there but the Grouchy Olde Dinosaur nailed it. There are Treaties being violated, rules being broken, and sovereignty being completely ignored in regard to Russia and all the nations of the Caspian Sea.
As members of the UN Security Council they should consider the conflict of interest here, but then Putin is a narcissist who cant' see past his own ambitions. Russia is not strong when the overall population is still overwhelmingly poor, like in Ukraine where Russian backed government officials have homes that would put the Vatican to shame. Businesses are being seized, people oppressed. And the average Russian have the lifespan of a sub Saharan African. Not to mention the HIV and intravenous drug use rates in Russia.
Putin does not even care about his own citizens, only power and being a megalomaniac.

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