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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 10:20:14 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

If you check history; Crimea has more cultural ties to Russia then Ukraine. Crimea tried to leave Ukraine and become a Russian province in the 1850s and a war was fought to force them to stay with Ukraine.

Again, Crimea is trying to leave Ukraine and attach itself to Russia. And, again, Western European countries are trying to keep Crimea as part of the Ukraine. Will the U.S. go to war in yet another country to force people to do what they don't want to do.

It's not as simple as that though.

Crimea's economy is dependent on Ukrainian subsidy, food and energy. Russia doesn't even have a land bridge to Crimea -- the Red Army built a bridge decades ago that promptly fell to ice floes, and hasn't been able to reconstruct it since. Russia promised higher pensions, but is going to have a hell of a job supplying goods, as they will all have to come by ferry.

I'm amused that some posters are crying for the U.S. to defend Ukraine, with whom we have no defense treaty, as a criticism of Obama. Wanna bet had he gone in guns blazing, they'd be bitching about us being the world's policemen?

This is Russia. We can't just push them around. Reality bites.

(in reply to MercTech)
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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 12:13:16 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

If you check history; Crimea has more cultural ties to Russia then Ukraine. Crimea tried to leave Ukraine and become a Russian province in the 1850s and a war was fought to force them to stay with Ukraine.

Again, Crimea is trying to leave Ukraine and attach itself to Russia. And, again, Western European countries are trying to keep Crimea as part of the Ukraine. Will the U.S. go to war in yet another country to force people to do what they don't want to do.

It's not as simple as that though.

Crimea's economy is dependent on Ukrainian subsidy, food and energy. Russia doesn't even have a land bridge to Crimea -- the Red Army built a bridge decades ago that promptly fell to ice floes, and hasn't been able to reconstruct it since. Russia promised higher pensions, but is going to have a hell of a job supplying goods, as they will all have to come by ferry.

I'm amused that some posters are crying for the U.S. to defend Ukraine, with whom we have no defense treaty, as a criticism of Obama. Wanna bet had he gone in guns blazing, they'd be bitching about us being the world's policemen?

This is Russia. We can't just push them around. Reality bites.



I don't advocate defending the Ukraine. I do advocate helping them so it never comes to pass they need to be defended.

Look, fundamentally, crimea is mostly russian speaking. Its all a power game however. How much of the Ukraine are we gong to stand by and let russia take?
Do things now, so that the end position isn't a total invasion of ukraine - or the confiscation of the SE third of the country.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 12:17:42 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		And again, it's not as easy as "not letting" Russia do it.

They aren't Iraq.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 12:21:30 PM   
MercTech


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Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		Or is Ukraine's economy going to take a huge hit without Crimea?

Huge shipyard in Sevastopol and home of the Black Sea Fleet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet

And famous resort areas like Yalta.
http://www.traveltoukraine.org/crimea.htm

Between industrial base in Crimea and the influx of tourist money, Crimea is a gem.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 12:42:21 PM   
MercTech


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Joined: 7/4/2006
Status: offline 		FYI, Where Crimea is in case you haven't looked already.






Attachment (1)

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 12:45:05 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		The Crimea is to the Russkies as the Spanish 'Riviera' is to England. 

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 12:49:00 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

The Crimea is to the Russkies as the Spanish 'Riviera' is to England. 

It's full of retired professional criminals and lottery winners?

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 12:52:21 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
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Status: offline 		If you consider being released from Siberia to go to Crimea a lottery winner, then Yaaaaaaaaaaaaas.

If its Russkies, its criminals.  (But then I repeat myself, don't I?) 

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 12:55:15 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		There is that, true enough.

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 12:57:46 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		There was a massive influx of Russkies into Crimea in the very early 70's....wonder what that was all about.  I can't find any suffiiciently causal relationship for it. 

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 1:01:47 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Or is Ukraine's economy going to take a huge hit without Crimea?

Huge shipyard in Sevastopol and home of the Black Sea Fleet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet

And famous resort areas like Yalta.
http://www.traveltoukraine.org/crimea.htm

Between industrial base in Crimea and the influx of tourist money, Crimea is a gem.

You're confusing cause and effect. Crimea's economy is dependent on tourism. That loss will be Crimea's, not the Ukraine's.

(in reply to MercTech)
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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 2:57:23 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I address this question to everyone but I am particularly interested in the opinions of anyone who has greater knowledge (personal and/or educational) about the situation.

Leaving aside personal feelings about Putin, Russia, the Ukrainians or the power politics of nations, my question is this: Do the Russians, culturally and historically speaking, have a legitimate claim to the Crimea or any other parts of the Ukraine?


Yes.

No less so than if Washington and Oregon decades ago successfully seceded from the U.S. and then....Vancouver and Portland decided they really wanted to be part of the U.S. again and asked to become part of same.

It ain't brain surgery.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 7:22:30 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

The immediate problem with your question is that to suggest 'claim'...you automatically require politics. There being no actual reality to cultural or civil 'claims' all that remains is...political claims.


I do not subscribe to the ideology that everything is political. Politics may attempt to exploit anything (like culture) and everything to advance an agenda but that is merely a lack of scruples.

quote:

Still even then, except as dinner table banter, the question is irrelevant.


Exploration is never irrelevant. I believe that a dispassionate analysis is an important part of any exploration.

quote:

If the world is to recognize the 'political' concept of sovereignty, then every country has a political right to its own. Thus, no, the Russians have no political claims in Crimea or Ukraine.


"Own" what? People? Land?

quote:

All of this business about Texas is not relevant at all. Texas did in fact vote freely to join the US. After the Spanish came and took what they wanted, the US then...took it from them.


I believe I already said that.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 7:25:07 PM   
MercTech


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Joined: 7/4/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

There was a massive influx of Russkies into Crimea in the very early 70's....wonder what that was all about.  I can't find any suffiiciently causal relationship for it. 


Probably the same reason so many people go to Florida.

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 7:28:28 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Yes.

No less so than if Washington and Oregon decades ago successfully seceded from the U.S. and then....Vancouver and Portland decided they really wanted to be part of the U.S. again and asked to become part of same.


I don't get this. Since when was Vancouver part of the United States? Also . . .

[WARNING: Canadians avert your eyes!]

Americans and Canadians are fairly similar in terms of culture and language. Are the Russians and the Ukrainians similarly close? I don't know (one of t he reasons I asked the question).

quote:

It ain't brain surgery.


No, it's just thinking things through. I believe in occasionally examining one's own presumptions.

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Profile   Post #: 75
RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 8:10:55 PM   
MercTech


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Joined: 7/4/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Yes.

No less so than if Washington and Oregon decades ago successfully seceded from the U.S. and then....Vancouver and Portland decided they really wanted to be part of the U.S. again and asked to become part of same.


I don't get this. Since when was Vancouver part of the United States? Also . . .

[WARNING: Canadians avert your eyes!]

Americans and Canadians are fairly similar in terms of culture and language. Are the Russians and the Ukrainians similarly close? I don't know (one of t he reasons I asked the question).

quote:

It ain't brain surgery.


No, it's just thinking things through. I believe in occasionally examining one's own presumptions.


Vancouver, Washington is across the Columbia River from Portland, Oregon. Not to be confused with the much larger Vancouver, British Columbia which is a very interesting Canadian City.


(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 8:20:01 PM   
Marc2b


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quote:

Vancouver, Washington is across the Columbia River from Portland, Oregon.


Oh. Okay. I probably should have thought of that since there are two cities named Niagara Falls - which I live near.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 10:26:25 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

FYI, Where Crimea is in case you haven't looked already.







One needs to pan out a bit to see the significance of the Crimean peninsula(the area with city names) as well as well as the fact that there`s only one way in or out of the Black Sea,a narrow,blockable canal that`s controlled by OUR ally,Turkey.



The russians killed quite a few nazis here and know it like the back of the hands.....Any talk of miltary intervention is just neo-cons longing to get more American kids killed.....

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 10:32:14 PM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Americans and Canadians are fairly similar in terms of culture and language. Are the Russians and the Ukrainians similarly close? I don't know (one of t he reasons I asked the question).


Not that close. Russian and Ukrainian are similar languages, but with some noticeable differences. I suppose one might say that they started out as the same people with the same culture and language, but (without going into all the gory details) centuries of cultural and political separation caused their cultures and languages to diverge somewhat. It wouldn't be analogous to America and Canada.

"Ukraine" literally means "on the edge/frontier," and they were occupied by outside powers for centuries, mainly Turkey in some parts and Poland-Lithuania in other parts. The rest of Russia was still divided into principalities, although the Moscow princes gained prominence and eventual primacy over central and northern Russia, as well as capitalizing on the power vacuum left in Central Asia by the waning Mongol Empire. It would take a few more centuries before they would get Ukraine back, but from a certain point of view, they probably always thought of it as "theirs." At least, they felt that the territory belonged to them more than it belonged to Poland or Turkey or anyone else. Ancient Russian history actually begins in Kiev, so the area in question definitely plays an integral role in their national consciousness and how they see the world.

(in reply to Marc2b)
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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/20/2014 10:34:28 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Yes.

No less so than if Washington and Oregon decades ago successfully seceded from the U.S. and then....Vancouver and Portland decided they really wanted to be part of the U.S. again and asked to become part of same.


I don't get this. Since when was Vancouver part of the United States? Also . . .

[WARNING: Canadians avert your eyes!]

Americans and Canadians are fairly similar in terms of culture and language. Are the Russians and the Ukrainians similarly close? I don't know (one of t he reasons I asked the question).

quote:

It ain't brain surgery.


No, it's just thinking things through. I believe in occasionally examining one's own presumptions.


I can't help you on that, however, Canada isn't part of this discussion.

Vancouver, Washington (borders by a river with) Portland, Oregon.

(in reply to Marc2b)
Profile   Post #: 80
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