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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 8:22:40 PM

Owner59

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A good analysis from Rachel Maddow.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/watch/putin-grab-also-takes-russians-out-of-ukraine-199511619960

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 8:49:36 PM

Arturas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

A good analysis from Rachel Maddow.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/watch/putin-grab-also-takes-russians-out-of-ukraine-199511619960

She does a good job with the lefties, for sure.

Has she considered that Russia is housing the exiled premier of the Ukraine for a reason and it's not that they like his company? They will have the Ukraine in a few weeks if not days and the West will not stop them, that is clear now and so now Russia is clearly expansionist for resources in the Ukraine and not the Crimea, the Crimea is just a test of Western will. They mean to control the pipelines to Europe that pass through the Ukraine and they will take the Ukraine and restore their puppet Prime Minister.

Then they will have a great deal more influence. They've got Obama looking like a fool.

< Message edited by Arturas -- 3/18/2014 8:53:04 PM >

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 8:56:12 PM

Arturas

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I did not want to get into this, but when Carter was up against the Iranians way back when we had really nothing to be scared about. But Obama against the KGB Premier/Czar? Oh fuck, fucked we are. Did Obama, the socialist, name his puppet bureaucrats "Czar" for some reason? Obama was recorded last year leaning over to Putin in a meeting and whispering "wait till my next term...".

< Message edited by Arturas -- 3/18/2014 8:59:58 PM >

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 9:02:02 PM

Arturas

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Did we just watch Obama last week telegraph that we was going to impose sanctions and then give the Russians time to prepare and pull their money out of the U.S. accounts and now they laugh at the sanctions, publically? Now, that is influence. Influence on Obama.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 9:11:03 PM

Arturas

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No. It was all a bad dream. Romney won the election, Obamacare was halted by Executive Order and freedom restored to America and when Putin started to move troops to the Crimea Border the refocused NSA detected the plot and our Commander and Chief moved anti-missile batteries into Poland, the 6th Fleet closer to the Black Sea and began naval exercises with a joint force of the 6th Fleet and the Ukrainian Navy and put SAC on alert for the first time in a decade or two, visibly on alert and lo and behold it came to be that those troops on the Russian side of the Crimea border were "unknown separatist elements" and Putin ordered the Russian Army to take them into custody, it was all a mistake. See you at the G8 summit President Romney and we hope to see your wonderful family there, the Russian Premier was heard to say.

< Message edited by Arturas -- 3/18/2014 9:12:24 PM >

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 9:20:30 PM

MrBukani

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Then the turks have no claim to Turkey.Thank you very much.
Americans please pack your bags and resettle in Europe where you fuckin belong.

Good point. So because we won the Indian Wars we now have a legitimate right to America. Might made right. The victor dictates the new treaty terms and enjoys the spoils. The strong overcomes the weak. The Russians look strong now. Stronger than we do.

There was never an indian war it was more like slaughter in those days. But I will give you a current update. If you live by these rules, what will stop China when they wanna take over the world. Your spaceship enterprise? I have mentioned this sometime before. While the world is made to fear the muslim world (wich I do not, they do not have the numerical strength nor the industrial to compete.) I would fear China. The technological gap is closing and soon all high tech will be cheap like a street hooker.

Will you still say then, might is right? When 2 billion chinese will run over the westcoast?

You say 2 billion? Yes I do, they only have to undo the 1 child rule and they'll have a massive army in 16 years. Think about it.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 9:48:10 PM

MercTech

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

I address this question to everyone but I am particularly interested in the opinions of anyone who has greater knowledge (personal and/or educational) about the situation.

Leaving aside personal feelings about Putin, Russia, the Ukrainians or the power politics of nations, my question is this: Do the Russians, culturally and historically speaking, have a legitimate claim to the Crimea or any other parts of the Ukraine?

In the 1850s, Crimea voted to leave Ukraine and join Russia.

This led to the Crimean War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War

quote:

The Crimean War (pronounced /kraɪˈmiːən/ or /krɨˈmiːən/) (October 1853 – February 1856)[7][8]:7 was a conflict in which Russia lost to an alliance of France, Britain, the Ottoman Empire, and Sardinia. While neutral, the Austrian Empire also played a role in defeating the Russians.

This was one of the worst fought wars in recorded history. The of tactics, logistics, and command were a painful failure on so many levels. I guess it doesn't get much study in the U.S. since the Civil War rather took center stage on this side of the Atlantic shortly after the Crimean War.

Two things you may remember mentioned in high school came from the Crimean War.
Florence Nightingale became famous (one of the founders of modern Nursing - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Nightingale ).
Tennyson wrote the poem "Charge of the Light Brigade" about the Battle of Balaclava.

Does this sound familiar?

quote:

Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:

Full text of Charge of the Light Brigade: http://poetry.eserver.org/light-brigade.html

Is Putin doing something new or just trying to get back Crimea that had voted to become part of Russia in the 1850s? <grin>

Humorous medical notes on Crimean War.
One Army Surgeon wanted to issue each trooper a sheep to keep with him for emergency blood transfusions. I wonder if the idea was shot down over fear the soldiers would make other use of the sheep? <bwahahahaha>
(Blood typing was not developed until shortly after 1900 although blood transfusion had been documented back to the late 1600s.)

< Message edited by MercTech -- 3/18/2014 9:58:52 PM >

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 10:05:11 PM

Arturas

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Then the turks have no claim to Turkey.Thank you very much.
Americans please pack your bags and resettle in Europe where you fuckin belong.

Good point. So because we won the Indian Wars we now have a legitimate right to America. Might made right. The victor dictates the new treaty terms and enjoys the spoils. The strong overcomes the weak. The Russians look strong now. Stronger than we do.

There was never an indian war it was more like slaughter in those days. But I will give you a current update. If you live by these rules, what will stop China when they wanna take over the world. Your spaceship enterprise? I have mentioned this sometime before. While the world is made to fear the muslim world (wich I do not, they do not have the numerical strength nor the industrial to compete.) I would fear China. The technological gap is closing and soon all high tech will be cheap like a street hooker.

Will you still say then, might is right? When 2 billion chinese will run over the westcoast?

You say 2 billion? Yes I do, they only have to undo the 1 child rule and they'll have a massive army in 16 years. Think about it.

I'm not understanding the "starship enterprise" reference. In the real world, might has always made right. Call it Indian slaughter or war, the result was the same so I don't see what your point is there also.

As far as China goes, it is dangerous, maybe more so than Russia but that does not make Russia any less a danger than it really is and when it goes out country shopping then that makes it dangerous in anyone's book and yes, Might makes right because the victor gets what thy wanted and eventually that becomes the norm and in that area it becomes "right" just like it is "right" that we non-Indians took America away from the Indians and they are not getting it back.

Historically that is the way it aways is, correct and it still is that way. It is not the way MSNBC or the most Reverend Wright sees it. The world is a dangerous place just like Cheney said it was. Yup, he is right and you know who is wrong again.

< Message edited by Arturas -- 3/18/2014 10:10:14 PM >

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 10:06:04 PM

MrBukani

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Don't know but it's probably been mentioned before. Sebastopol is home of the russian black sea fleet. Without it they will loose a great tactical advantage. It has nothing to do with how many russians live there.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 10:08:49 PM

MrBukani

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Anyway just read this and decide wether Ukraine is russian or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27

Kievan Rus' (Old East Slavic Рѹ́сь, Рѹ́сьскаѧ землѧ,[citation needed] Greek Ῥωσία, Latin Rus(s)ia, Ruscia, Ruzzia, Rut(h)enia,[1][2] Old Norse Garðaríki) was a loose federation[3] of East Slavic tribes in Europe from the late 9th to the mid-13th century,[4] under the reign of the Rurik dynasty. The modern peoples of Belarus, Ukraine, and Russia all claim Kievan Rus' as their cultural inheritance.[5] At its greatest extent in the mid-11th century, it stretched from the Baltic Sea in the north to the Black Sea in the south and from the headwaters of the Vistula in the west to the Taman Peninsula in the east,[6][7] uniting the majority of East Slavic tribes

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 3/18/2014 10:30:28 PM >

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 10:11:34 PM

Arturas

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Ukraine becomes Russian when they take it and nothing has anything to do with how many ethnic Russians are in any given country. We have more Irish than Ireland.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 10:19:07 PM

MrBukani

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The starship enterprise was a reference to the tech gap wich is closing(you will need a spaceship to combat the chinese in a decade or two.). To answer simple. If we are gonna continue to live by might is right, wars will never end. The roman empire ended in massive bloodshed and the dark ages. Is it right/good to go back to the dark ages once america looses it's position. The phrase might is right might be true to the victor but never to the looser. I hope humanity will not continue this line of thinking. It is not good now nor was it ever. The greeks had their own dark ages where every city was destoyed. Do you think that's right? No it's wrong. I would like to think we are becoming more civilized not less.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 10:20:26 PM

HowardYu

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Its really about fishing. Yes fishing.

Its suppose to be unbelievable in the CryMeA River.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 10:25:56 PM

MrBukani

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HowardYu

Its really about fishing. Yes fishing.

Its suppose to be unbelievable in the CryMeA River.

That's so justin timberlake it makes me hurl

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/18/2014 10:51:55 PM

MercTech

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

Ukraine becomes Russian when they take it and nothing has anything to do with how many ethnic Russians are in any given country. We have more Irish than Ireland.

Isn't the issue Russia annexing Crimea away from Ukraine?

Or, is it just that Russia has a burning need for beach front property like the resort town of Yalta? If it was good enough for Churchill, Stalin, and FDR why wouldn't Putin want it? <grin>

Anyway, just like in the 1850s, Crimea votes to be part of Russia instead of Ukraine and western powers are ready to use force to try and deny them.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/03/18/russia-moves-to-annex-crimea-laughs-at-us-sanctions/

< Message edited by MercTech -- 3/18/2014 10:58:32 PM >

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/19/2014 2:29:48 AM

FellowSlave

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I know some Russians. They were really pissed when SU broke up and Crimea stayed in Ukraine. This is why Putin was cheered for "taking Crimea back". It was a popular summer resort for Soviet time Russian elites. International borders are generally agreed. It is a serious matter if some state starts changing borders. Putin plays idiot, like he does not understand the seriousness of his actions. Crimeans, of course, are fools. Russia is a horrible police state, and the future perspectives are no good. Putin is exactly the type of autocratic ruler who often destroy the country (Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon). Crimea would be better off having autonomy or joining Turkey (the area was part of Ottoman empire).
Russia has much more mineral resources and fertile land per capita than any other country on Earth. They do not need to expand or rule over neighbors. They could live totally economically isolated if they were able to learn how to produce consumes goods.
BTW: if you run ISP in Russia you need to provide hard line administrator level access to your servers by FSB (formerly known as KGB) and no one complains. It tells something about Russians.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/19/2014 2:36:23 AM

GoddessManko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FellowSlave

I know some Russians. They were really pissed when SU broke up and Crimea stayed in Ukraine. This is why Putin was cheered for "taking Crimea back". It was a popular summer resort for Soviet time Russian elites. International borders are generally agreed. It is a serious matter if some state starts changing borders. Putin plays idiot, like he does not understand the seriousness of his actions. Crimeans, of course, are fools. Russia is a horrible police state, and the future perspectives are no good. Putin is exactly the type of autocratic ruler who often destroy the country (Hitler, Stalin, Napoleon). Crimea would be better off having autonomy or joining Turkey (the area was part of Ottoman empire).
Russia has much more mineral resources and fertile land per capita than any other country on Earth. They do not need to expand or rule over neighbors. They could live totally economically isolated if they were able to learn how to produce consumes goods.
BTW: if you run ISP in Russia you need to provide hard line administrator level access to your servers by FSB (formerly known as KGB) and no one complains. It tells something about Russians.

Putin is not one to be underestimated. He is probably the most disciplined leader in the world, incredibly tactful and very good at the proverbial game of chess which is life. He also is unscrupulous which makes it an EXTREMELY dangerous combination. This is why despite the abhorrent conditions of most Russians he effortlessly is able to project EXACTLY the kind of image that he wants to (apart from controlling every media outlet and strong arming powerful figures to his favor).
The sanctions will hurt, but the problem is that despite what measures the US may take, Putin will refuse to lose this one, he is unaccustomed to failure. And his adversaries go the way of Litvenenko.
Thankfully the president is being hawkish with this issue, it's the ONLY way to deal with this type of character.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/19/2014 2:46:55 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

I did not want to get into this, but when Carter was up against the Iranians way back when we had really nothing to be scared about. But Obama against the KGB Premier/Czar? Oh fuck, fucked we are. Did Obama, the socialist, name his puppet bureaucrats "Czar" for some reason?

No. a lazy media did that.
An informed person would know that.

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/19/2014 5:19:29 AM

Owner59

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

A good analysis from Rachel Maddow.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/watch/putin-grab-also-takes-russians-out-of-ukraine-199511619960

She does a good job with the lefties, for sure.

Has she considered that Russia is housing the exiled premier of the Ukraine for a reason and it's not that they like his company? They will have the Ukraine in a few weeks if not days and the West will not stop them, that is clear now and so now Russia is clearly expansionist for resources in the Ukraine and not the Crimea, the Crimea is just a test of Western will. They mean to control the pipelines to Europe that pass through the Ukraine and they will take the Ukraine and restore their puppet Prime Minister.

Then they will have a great deal more influence. They've got Obama looking like a fool.

Yup, facts never mix well with rightists...that`s a given....

Well, we know what you righties would be doing instead.

"Mitt Romney pretends to know foreign policy"

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/mitt-romney-pretends-know-foreign-policy#

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RE: A question about Crimea. - 3/19/2014 6:29:55 AM

MrRodgers

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The immediate problem with your question is that to suggest 'claim'...you automatically require politics. There being no actual reality to cultural or civil 'claims' all that remains is...political claims.

Still even then, except as dinner table banter, the question is irrelevant. If the world is to recognize the 'political' concept of sovereignty, then every country has a political right to its own. Thus, no, the Russians have no political claims in Crimea or Ukraine.

All of this business about Texas is not relevant at all. Texas did in fact vote freely to join the US. After the Spanish came and took what they wanted, the US then...took it from them.

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