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RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/21/2014 7:21:24 PM   
Arturas


Posts: 3245
Status: offline 		...so incase you lefties have not figured it out or seen the writing on the wall yet, the party is over and we really don't care if you do figure it out yet as long as you get your damn birth certificate and keep your whining to yourself and MSNBC cause we are not listening to it and we are not paying for no stinking Obamacare nor are we letting anyone take our Nation away from us by voting with an old electric bill that was never paid last year.

Boy I feel better. Don't you? I don't give a shit if you do or not just get your birth certificate and get a job and pay for that Obamacare policy you signed up for maybe, who knows? They don't.

_____________________________

"We master Our world."

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/21/2014 8:32:34 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		FR

I agree every citizen should be allowed to vote.
Laws like this are intended to suppress the vote
of a demographic that leans heavily Democratic, illegal immigrants.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/21/2014 9:34:09 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Bama do you really think that many illegal immigrants vote? I really doubt it... if this were to be true there would at least be more than a few caught... I don't see it in my area.

Now I've already said I believe we should have id's...but if it is just to stop illegals from voting it would be a waste...there simply is not a problem.

But where there is a problem is people voting that are dead... or moved...or someone voting in their place...or people that just don't exist. These are the real problems i think ID's would address.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/21/2014 9:51:26 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
It is in full agreement with the constitution, and it will prevent illegal aliens from voting in elections.

Serious question here.

How many actual citizens with a right to vote would you disenfranchise in order to stop 1 incorrect vote? What ratio of signal to noise is good for you? Not to be coy here but I see disenfranchising a legitimate voter as a much, much more serious error and would tailor my policies accordingly.

As a follow up, do you have any evidence that proves... or even strongly suggests... that individual voter fraud is actually an issue? I've never seen a credible report on that, just lurid news stories. Don't get me wrong. I certainly think election fraud happens but I think the most damaging kinds are performed by the Republican and Democratic party. I'm HIGHLY concerned by electronic voting... that's basically the end of democracy in any realistic sense. But fraud perpetrated by individuals? Yeah... I'd like to see some numbers on that if you have them.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/21/2014 9:59:29 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Bama do you really think that many illegal immigrants vote? I really doubt it... if this were to be true there would at least be more than a few caught... I don't see it in my area.

Now I've already said I believe we should have id's...but if it is just to stop illegals from voting it would be a waste...there simply is not a problem.

But where there is a problem is people voting that are dead... or moved...or someone voting in their place...or people that just don't exist. These are the real problems i think ID's would address.

Butch

Illegal voting is much worse in CA than MO and yes we need to keep the dead from voting,
of course that would have meant we go Nixon in 60 instead of 68, but I digress.
The dead and moved people have been a key voting block for the Daley machine
since before it was the Daley machine. The St Louis had one just as bad as has every major city
in the country. Those are the people whose votes would be suppressed by Voter Id and who it would
help would depend on who runs the local machine.
Illegal immigrants are as you say only part of the problem but if we have to fix it piecemeal
that is better than not fixing it at all.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/21/2014 10:00:50 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
It is in full agreement with the constitution, and it will prevent illegal aliens from voting in elections.

Serious question here.

How many actual citizens with a right to vote would you disenfranchise in order to stop 1 incorrect vote? What ratio of signal to noise is good for you? Not to be coy here but I see disenfranchising a legitimate voter as a much, much more serious error and would tailor my policies accordingly.

As a follow up, do you have any evidence that proves... or even strongly suggests... that individual voter fraud is actually an issue? I've never seen a credible report on that, just lurid news stories. Don't get me wrong. I certainly think election fraud happens but I think the most damaging kinds are performed by the Republican and Democratic party. I'm HIGHLY concerned by electronic voting... that's basically the end of democracy in any realistic sense. But fraud perpetrated by individuals? Yeah... I'd like to see some numbers on that if you have them.

But this would not disenfranchise legitimate voters.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/21/2014 10:05:38 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
But this would not disenfranchise legitimate voters.

So far I have never seen a scheme which did not do so. Actually that was quite surprising to me when I first started looking into this issue. But as it turns out there are lots and lots of people who for various and sundried reasons do not have <insert official document here> and obtaining said document is nontrivial.

I'd be in favor of any such law so long as it came with a thorough analysis of the impacted groups and a SOLID plan to mitigate the damage. Otherwise the price tag is just plain not worth problem... particularly since the problem has never, to my knowledge, been shown to exist.

It routinely amazes me that people are willing to spend such time and effort working on a non-problem when the issue of electronic voting is taking the power of the vote away from all of us. Quite clearly the motivations are not about protecting elections. That makes me wonder what they ARE about.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/21/2014 10:13:40 PM   
FrostedFlake


Posts: 3084
Joined: 3/4/2009
From: Centralia, Washington
Status: offline 		Vote fraud is a red herring. How many times do you suppose one man can vote? Election fraud is where the money is.

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Frosted Flake
simul justus et peccator
Einen Liebhaber, und halten Sie die Schraube

"... evil (and hilarious) !!" Hlen5

(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/21/2014 10:18:04 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
But this would not disenfranchise legitimate voters.

So far I have never seen a scheme which did not do so. Actually that was quite surprising to me when I first started looking into this issue. But as it turns out there are lots and lots of people who for various and sundried reasons do not have <insert official document here> and obtaining said document is nontrivial.

I'd be in favor of any such law so long as it came with a thorough analysis of the impacted groups and a SOLID plan to mitigate the damage. Otherwise the price tag is just plain not worth problem... particularly since the problem has never, to my knowledge, been shown to exist.

It routinely amazes me that people are willing to spend such time and effort working on a non-problem when the issue of electronic voting is taking the power of the vote away from all of us. Quite clearly the motivations are not about protecting elections. That makes me wonder what they ARE about.

Last year they convicted nearly a dozen poll workers in Ohio of voting fraud with them and their friends
voting multiple times.
CA is notorious for turning a blind eye to illegals voting.
Without Voter ID it is very hard to catch voter fraud.
In 2000 Democratic districts in St Louis and KC were allowed
to stay open longer than those in "outstate" MO (of course that would be fixed by
an unemployed and jailed judge rather than by id) In 08 there was film of voter intimidation
in Philly but holder declined to prosecute in part, according to some in DOJ
because Holder thought it would send the wrong message if they prosecuted blacks for this.
In 2012 the man at the center of the video was named as a poll worker.
Just because it isn't given lots of attention doesn't mean it isn't there.
Getting a voter ID in Alabama didn't cost me a dime, and they have a bill
here to make it even easier.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/21/2014 10:20:55 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

Vote fraud is a red herring. How many times do you suppose one man can vote? Election fraud is where the money is.

Both need to be cracked down on.
One of the people convicted in Ohio last year voted 8 times in 08

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to FrostedFlake)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/21/2014 10:25:23 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

Vote fraud is a red herring. How many times do you suppose one man can vote? Election fraud is where the money is.

If we don't fight both sides of the problem democracy loses
Election fraud is often accomplished by voter fraud, as KS pointed out with the dead vote.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to FrostedFlake)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/21/2014 10:28:20 PM   
FrostedFlake


Posts: 3084
Joined: 3/4/2009
From: Centralia, Washington
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

Vote fraud is a red herring. How many times do you suppose one man can vote? Election fraud is where the money is.

Both need to be cracked down on.
One of the people convicted in Ohio last year voted 8 times in 08

Maybe both do, I am pointedly not going to engage the point, but only one is. And it is the wrong one.

8 votes isn't going to change anything. One Diebold machine, on the other hand...

_____________________________

Frosted Flake
simul justus et peccator
Einen Liebhaber, und halten Sie die Schraube

"... evil (and hilarious) !!" Hlen5

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/21/2014 10:31:11 PM   
FrostedFlake


Posts: 3084
Joined: 3/4/2009
From: Centralia, Washington
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

Vote fraud is a red herring. How many times do you suppose one man can vote? Election fraud is where the money is.

If we don't fight both sides of the problem democracy loses
Election fraud is often accomplished by voter fraud, as KS pointed out with the dead vote.

This, I will call bullshit on. Dead men don't vote. They are SAID to, and that is election fraud.

_____________________________

Frosted Flake
simul justus et peccator
Einen Liebhaber, und halten Sie die Schraube

"... evil (and hilarious) !!" Hlen5

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/21/2014 10:54:53 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

This is really simple. You are trying on purpose to make it hard. You need a birth certificate even if you never vote. You cannot get a SSN without it. You cannot work a job without an SSN. You therefore must have one. If you do not then you must make the effort to get one. So, even if there were no voter fraud occurrences, one needs to have a birth certificate as the basic primary overriding uber this is it no shit document to prove who you are.

That's it and if you want to vote then you need one so, let me hear you say it with me, so you can prove who you are and we want to prove who we are, don't we because we are all responsible citizens of the U.S. just like all the Europeans have to have such a thing to prove who they are when they vote, yes folks, the leftist ever social amazing Europeans must have a birth certificate no matter what and you can stuff that "oh, it is soooo hard and oh, I am black and poor and was born in the swamps of Louisiana and we did not have any doctor or paper or even nothing except a hut and nobody could read twice and boo hooo it's so mean to make me, a poor black Hispanic Seminole Indian Native American to get up off my butt, write the office of vital statistics in the state in which you were born and start that somewhat lengthy but certainly doable process to get your birth certificate because you want to vote like a responsible citizen and so every responsible citizen has a birth certificate if they want to prove who they are. There, no need to define an alternate universe where you just walk up with an old electric bill from somewhere and vote for the name on it.

Okay, we got it now everyone? In other words get your shit together and quit blaming someone else because you have obviously mistaken Americans for fools who give a shit that you don't want to get a birth certificate before you vote and would rather whine to the press or the Most Reverend Al Sharpton or the Even More Reverend Jessie "secret love child" Jackson and have them run up and down the cable news networks crying about the unreasonable GOP trying to make people do unreasonable things, like get their fucking birth certificate for crying out loud so shut the fuck up and get your shit together, get a birth certificate for crying out loud cause we are fucking tired of hearing the sob story and we got other things to do, like repeal the mess and you know which one it is.

The government forcing me to prove my identity at every turn is the very antithesis of the freedoms this country was founded on. Take your dictatorship somewhere else.

(in reply to Arturas)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/21/2014 10:59:10 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Bama do you really think that many illegal immigrants vote? I really doubt it... if this were to be true there would at least be more than a few caught... I don't see it in my area.

Now I've already said I believe we should have id's...but if it is just to stop illegals from voting it would be a waste...there simply is not a problem.

But where there is a problem is people voting that are dead... or moved...or someone voting in their place...or people that just don't exist. These are the real problems i think ID's would address.

Butch

Illegal voting is much worse in CA than MO and yes we need to keep the dead from voting,

You of course have not a shred of evidence for that.
quote:

of course that would have meant we go Nixon in 60 instead of 68, but I digress.

Funny thing, Nixon litigated the outcome of 1960 for 6 months and all it did was change Hawaii in favor of Kennedy. No fraud was found.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/22/2014 8:37:46 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake
8 votes isn't going to change anything. One Diebold machine, on the other hand...

You're worried about one Diebold machine? I'm more interested in those backroom servers tallying votes for multiple states full of voters. This is why centralization of voting is a bad idea. It makes a honey-pot that is simply too big to protect by any known means.

But rather than that we are worrying about 8 illegal votes? *shakes head*

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to FrostedFlake)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/22/2014 8:41:03 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

Vote fraud is a red herring. How many times do you suppose one man can vote? Election fraud is where the money is.

Both need to be cracked down on.
One of the people convicted in Ohio last year voted 8 times in 08

Maybe both do, I am pointedly not going to engage the point, but only one is. And it is the wrong one.

8 votes isn't going to change anything. One Diebold machine, on the other hand...

250 voters getting 8 votes apiece in IL would have made Nixon President in 1960


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to FrostedFlake)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/22/2014 8:48:25 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Bama do you really think that many illegal immigrants vote? I really doubt it... if this were to be true there would at least be more than a few caught... I don't see it in my area.

Now I've already said I believe we should have id's...but if it is just to stop illegals from voting it would be a waste...there simply is not a problem.

But where there is a problem is people voting that are dead... or moved...or someone voting in their place...or people that just don't exist. These are the real problems i think ID's would address.

Butch

Illegal voting is much worse in CA than MO and yes we need to keep the dead from voting,

You of course have not a shred of evidence for that.
quote:

of course that would have meant we go Nixon in 60 instead of 68, but I digress.

Funny thing, Nixon litigated the outcome of 1960 for 6 months and all it did was change Hawaii in favor of Kennedy. No fraud was found.


You live in Chicago and deny voter and election fraud? You got to be kidding.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/22/2014 9:12:45 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You live in Chicago and deny voter and election fraud? You got to be kidding.

And yet I was just reading a rather scholarly paper on the topic yesterday (for this thread) where it said something to the effect of...

"Despite the lurid tales of voter and election fraud in Chicago...."

This is one of those things where I want facts. I'm open to them but so far have seen nothing that would indicate a problem worth more than casual investment of money and effort. And I still want to know why you seem unconcerned that multiple states worth of votes are going to a bunch of servers somewhere where they are being tallied in a black box and then "results" are being given to us. Good lord those folks could say anything at all. This is like worrying about a grill fire as the raging forest fire sweeps down around your house.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: This is going to get me crucified, but - 3/22/2014 9:35:40 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Bama do you really think that many illegal immigrants vote? I really doubt it... if this were to be true there would at least be more than a few caught... I don't see it in my area.

Now I've already said I believe we should have id's...but if it is just to stop illegals from voting it would be a waste...there simply is not a problem.

But where there is a problem is people voting that are dead... or moved...or someone voting in their place...or people that just don't exist. These are the real problems i think ID's would address.

Butch

Illegal voting is much worse in CA than MO and yes we need to keep the dead from voting,

You of course have not a shred of evidence for that.
quote:

of course that would have meant we go Nixon in 60 instead of 68, but I digress.

Funny thing, Nixon litigated the outcome of 1960 for 6 months and all it did was change Hawaii in favor of Kennedy. No fraud was found.


Actually three days after the election Nixon announced he wasn't challenging.
Kennedy carried Hawaii by 115 votes.
A state official challenged the Illinois counts but the challenge was thrown out by a Daley appointed
judge.
In Fanin County Texas there were 4,895 registered voters. There were questions asked with
75% of the 6,138 votes cast went to Kennedy.
By the time it was challenged the vote had been certified.
But no there was no reason to suspect fraud.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 60
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