RE: This is going to get me crucified, but

RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 3:17:13 PM)
FR Here are some of the questions that arise in my mind: -- What IDs would be acceptable? -- What documentation would be required to procure an approved ID? Can we be confident that said documentation would prove eligibility to vote? What happens to voters who don't have the documentation they need? -- Would voters have to obtain IDs in person? If so . . . -- Where would ID offices be located? -- What's a reasonable distance to travel to an ID office? -- Would they be accessible to public transportation? -- How would the old and infirm travel to the ID office? -- Would they be open beyond ordinary business hours? -- If not, would voters be compensated for lost wages if they must take time off work to obtain an ID? -- Would the IDs require photos? If so, what would be the process for getting the photos taken? Would one have to purchase the images, as for a passport? -- Would the IDs require signatures? If so, what would be the mechanism for obtaining them? -- Would there be fees for obtaining an ID? If so, what would they be? What would be the threshold for defining them as burdensome? If IDs are free, who shoulders the costs of providing them?

DomKen -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 3:43:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: The law would have to be crafted to avoid realistic problems We agree on this point. What are the "realistic problems" and how would you solve them? Most of the claimed problems are presumptions that it will put a burden on the poor without looking at or caring about the details. Alabama has had voter Id for several years and we haven't had the problems imagined by opponents. And still Alabama is working to make it easier for the poor. Maybe the rest of the country (in what would be a great stroke of irony) follow Alabama's lead in fighting voter fraud while protecting voters rights. The argument that voter Id bullies minorities into not voting haven't observed a voting place in Alabama. Actually my aunt, born at home in 1924, had quite a bit of trouble getting an ID because she has never had an official BC. All she had was the church birth record. It took several trips to Fort Payne, a 20 odd mile trip for a nearly 90 year old woman who no longer drives, to get that accepted and an ID card issued. If she wasn't so stubborn about it I doubt she would have kept at it. I'm sure a lot of other older people just gave up.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 3:46:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice FR Here are some of the questions that arise in my mind: -- What IDs would be acceptable? -- What documentation would be required to procure an approved ID? Can we be confident that said documentation would prove eligibility to vote? What happens to voters who don't have the documentation they need? -- Would voters have to obtain IDs in person? If so . . . -- Where would ID offices be located? -- What's a reasonable distance to travel to an ID office? -- Would they be accessible to public transportation? -- How would the old and infirm travel to the ID office? -- Would they be open beyond ordinary business hours? -- If not, would voters be compensated for lost wages if they must take time off work to obtain an ID? -- Would the IDs require photos? If so, what would be the process for getting the photos taken? Would one have to purchase the images, as for a passport? -- Would the IDs require signatures? If so, what would be the mechanism for obtaining them? -- Would there be fees for obtaining an ID? If so, what would they be? What would be the threshold for defining them as burdensome? If IDs are free, who shoulders the costs of providing them? People take time off from work to renew a drivers license without compensation. They take time off for lots of things without compensation why should the be paid to get a voter ID There are about 8 things here that serve as proof that you are who you say you are and the state will be providing free voter id cards that will also let you get beer or tobacco, which by the way the people whining about showing a photo id for have no problem showing them to get beer. They have no problem getting the ids if it is for beer but God forbid they need it to vote.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 3:47:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: The law would have to be crafted to avoid realistic problems We agree on this point. What are the "realistic problems" and how would you solve them? Most of the claimed problems are presumptions that it will put a burden on the poor without looking at or caring about the details. Alabama has had voter Id for several years and we haven't had the problems imagined by opponents. And still Alabama is working to make it easier for the poor. Maybe the rest of the country (in what would be a great stroke of irony) follow Alabama's lead in fighting voter fraud while protecting voters rights. The argument that voter Id bullies minorities into not voting haven't observed a voting place in Alabama. Actually my aunt, born at home in 1924, had quite a bit of trouble getting an ID because she has never had an official BC. All she had was the church birth record. It took several trips to Fort Payne, a 20 odd mile trip for a nearly 90 year old woman who no longer drives, to get that accepted and an ID card issued. If she wasn't so stubborn about it I doubt she would have kept at it. I'm sure a lot of other older people just gave up. Well I guess we are more advanced than that now. Of course my father, born in 23 and my mother born in 29 had no such problems, hmmm

dcnovice -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 4:26:05 PM)
quote: People take time off from work to renew a drivers license without compensation. They take time off for lots of things without compensation why should the be paid to get a voter ID There are about 8 things here that serve as proof that you are who you say you are and the state will be providing free voter id cards that will also let you get beer or tobacco, which by the way the people whining about showing a photo id for have no problem showing them to get beer. They have no problem getting the ids if it is for beer but God forbid they need it to vote. This is the third time you've offered generalities instead of any specifics about how the policy you advocate would actually work and affect voters. Your replies make it very hard to believe that you've thought this through in any depth.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 4:44:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: People take time off from work to renew a drivers license without compensation. They take time off for lots of things without compensation why should the be paid to get a voter ID There are about 8 things here that serve as proof that you are who you say you are and the state will be providing free voter id cards that will also let you get beer or tobacco, which by the way the people whining about showing a photo id for have no problem showing them to get beer. They have no problem getting the ids if it is for beer but God forbid they need it to vote. This is the third time you've offered generalities instead of any specifics about how the policy you advocate would actually work and affect voters. Your replies make it very hard to believe that you've thought this through in any depth. we don't have a lot of public transportation. We don't need it. All of your questions boil down to how is the government going to take full responsibility for people meeting the requirements to vote. We have a lot of places where you can register. Voter id is not as tight as the id required for tobacco or beer. People have no difficulty meeting the beer an tobacco requirement so it stands to reason that they should have no problem meeting the voter id requirement. Of course they should have to show up in person and sign to get registered, otherwise I can set at home fill out a dozen forms and steal the votes of people who don't want to be bothered. As I have stated we haven't had the problems you think will happen so I have had no need to figure out how to fix problems that do not exist. in case you are unaware of this, they may not exist in DC we have several organizations including both parties, who will take care of the transportation problems, get people registered and get them to the polls. None of your problems exist here so my specific suggestion is just follow our lead and make adjustments as needed for your jurisdiction.

kdsub -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 5:18:07 PM)
How about sending a mass mailing along with radio and television ads laying out what documents will be required to obtain a voter ID. Make sure these documents are free and easily accessible and obtained perhaps through the mail or internet with 1-800 numbers properly manned for more information. ID’s could be processed through the mail or at licensing offices or perhaps states could send vouchers for ID’s in the mail for those that had filed income taxes or voted in the last election and these would only require a return mailing or internet activation with the proper Social Security number on a secure network. These vouchers could be presented at the polls or any licencing office where a picture would be taken and the id produced.... In the same manner as a drivers licence....but free of charge. Allow the registration for the IDs’s to be at the polls when voting so transportation problems will be limited. The votes tabulated at the poll by those registering would be provincial until the information is verified and a permanent ID will be sent in the mail with conformation of the vote. That way there would be few backups at the polls. It would be better if the polls were opened a few days early just to keep waiting shorter. Just a Few ideas off the top of my head… With time I believe an easy transition could be worked out… Hell you could even give a grace vote and those without the proper ID’s could vote and be given the information they need before their next election…lots of easy things to do to make this painless. Butch

dcnovice -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 5:29:39 PM)
quote: All of your questions boil down to how is the government going to take full responsibility for people meeting the requirements to vote. No, they're straightforward logistical questions about how the policy you advocate would work, both in general and specifically to avoid, as you put it, "any unfair hardships." As for the role of the government, legislators imposing new burdens on the exercise of voting rights have a duty to ensure that they're not enfranchising the citizens they represent. Of course, if disenfranchisement is actually the covert goal of the exercise, I can see how one might want to shy away from practicalities about how the law will affect folks.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 5:31:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub How about sending a mass mailing along with radio and television ads laying out what documents will be required to obtain a voter ID. Make sure these documents are free and easily accessible and obtained perhaps through the mail or internet with 1-800 numbers properly manned for more information. ID’s could be processed through the mail or at licensing offices or perhaps states could send vouchers for ID’s in the mail for those that had filed income taxes or voted in the last election and these would only require a return mailing or internet activation with the proper Social Security number on a secure network. These vouchers could be presented at the polls or any licencing office where a picture would be taken and the id produced.... In the same manner as a drivers licence....but free of charge. Allow the registration for the IDs’s to be at the polls when voting so transportation problems will be limited. The votes tabulated at the poll by those registering would be provincial until the information is verified and a permanent ID will be sent in the mail with conformation of the vote. That way there would be few backups at the polls. It would be better if the polls were opened a few days early just to keep waiting shorter. Just a Few ideas off the top of my head… With time I believe an easy transition could be worked out… Hell you could even give a grace vote and those without the proper ID’s could vote and be given the information they need before their next election…lots of easy things to do to make this painless. Butch All of that sounds very reasonable.

Tkman117 -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 5:40:34 PM)
I agree. I think there is sense in having proper ID for voting. But to add to that I think it would be efficient that if you enrol your child in school, your child is automatically set up so that when he/she turns 18, a voting ID would be sent out to their most recent address filed by the school. With this information being handed off to universities/colleges along with your paperwork if you turn 18 after highschool. There are smart and very sensible ways of doing voter IDs, sadly a lot of the methods proposed by the right wing do it in such a way which make it difficult, if not impossible, for many of the constituents which would have voted against them from actually voting.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 5:44:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub How about sending a mass mailing along with radio and television ads laying out what documents will be required to obtain a voter ID. Make sure these documents are free and easily accessible and obtained perhaps through the mail or internet with 1-800 numbers properly manned for more information. ID’s could be processed through the mail or at licensing offices or perhaps states could send vouchers for ID’s in the mail for those that had filed income taxes or voted in the last election and these would only require a return mailing or internet activation with the proper Social Security number on a secure network. These vouchers could be presented at the polls or any licencing office where a picture would be taken and the id produced.... In the same manner as a drivers licence....but free of charge. Allow the registration for the IDs’s to be at the polls when voting so transportation problems will be limited. The votes tabulated at the poll by those registering would be provincial until the information is verified and a permanent ID will be sent in the mail with conformation of the vote. That way there would be few backups at the polls. It would be better if the polls were opened a few days early just to keep waiting shorter. Just a Few ideas off the top of my head… With time I believe an easy transition could be worked out… Hell you could even give a grace vote and those without the proper ID’s could vote and be given the information they need before their next election…lots of easy things to do to make this painless. Butch We used many of those things when implementing voter Id with a year or more lead time before it actually went in to effect and enough coverage that no one had an excuse to be surprised by it.

dcnovice -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 5:44:33 PM)
quote: Just a Few ideas off the top of my head… Thanks, Butch! One thing that wasn't clear was if you'd require voter IDs to bear photographs. That would add a whole other level of logistical complexity.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 5:45:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tkman117 I agree. I think there is sense in having proper ID for voting. But to add to that I think it would be efficient that if you enrol your child in school, your child is automatically set up so that when he/she turns 18, a voting ID would be sent out to their most recent address filed by the school. With this information being handed off to universities/colleges along with your paperwork if you turn 18 after highschool. There are smart and very sensible ways of doing voter IDs, sadly a lot of the methods proposed by the right wing do it in such a way which make it difficult, if not impossible, for many of the constituents which would have voted against them from actually voting. And all of the left wing we don't want it is counter productive.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 5:50:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: All of your questions boil down to how is the government going to take full responsibility for people meeting the requirements to vote. No, they're straightforward logistical questions about how the policy you advocate would work, both in general and specifically to avoid, as you put it, "any unfair hardships." As for the role of the government, legislators imposing new burdens on the exercise of voting rights have a duty to ensure that they're not enfranchising the citizens they represent. Of course, if disenfranchisement is actually the covert goal of the exercise, I can see how one might want to shy away from practicalities about how the law will affect folks. They don't ask for anything here that people should not have anyway. There is no indication that anyone has been disenfranchised and we have a number of politicians who make their living on accusations like this.

kdsub -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 5:53:15 PM)
dc I am sure there are plenty of problems with what I proposed... but I think with better minds and more time...and plenty of time for people to get this done...a good plan can be conceived. Yes it will be a bother for all... but just the first time through then things will be routine I think. Butch

kdsub -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 5:59:48 PM)
quote: One thing that wasn't clear was if you'd require voter IDs to bear photographs. That would add a whole other level of logistical complexity. I think most people will get this done way ahead of an election at their licencing offices or state and county buildings locations. For those that wait until the polls open pictures could be taken there with the new technologies available for licencing. I can go to Sam's and buy a Sam's card and have a picture id made on the spot. I think most states have this capability and if not they should be willing to buy the equipment needed. It is a price to pay for what they are demanding...and not a prohibitive one either in my opinion. Butch

JeffBC -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 6:01:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub Myself I wonder why folks are so against something when they don't know if it will be a problem or not unless it is tried. Damn things can be changed and altered if problems arise. shrug What can I say? I'm a fiscal conservative. I'd rather not spend money to fix a problem which has not been demonstrated. At the aesthetic level I find it entirely repugnant to disenfranchise people so I'm generally against plans which do so without a demonstration of substantial public good. Those are the two reasons I'm against these sorts of things.

JeffBC -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 6:03:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Apparently there has been miscommunication. possibly do to some lack of clarity on my part, my focus was on the subject of the OP. Fair enough. I just don't why anyone cares about a raindrop when the tsunami is roaring in. But yeah, I'm down with fixing this problem as soon as someone demonstrates that there is a problem and that the fix is cost effective and that the fix doesn't end up disenfranchising more than the very, very occasional collateral damage type person. edited to add: I recognize that I may have drunk the liberal kool-aid on this one (regarding disenfranchisement). I remain comfortable with the statement above. Provide a solid ombudsman type function for those caught without valid ID for whatever reason and I'm comfortable with the disenfranchisement portion of the debate.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 6:20:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub dc I am sure there are plenty of problems with what I proposed... but I think with better minds and more time...and plenty of time for people to get this done...a good plan can be conceived. Yes it will be a bother for all... but just the first time through then things will be routine I think. Butch Your proposals seem like a good starting point, some adjustments would have to be made in some areas as one size fits all seldom works out.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 6:24:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Apparently there has been miscommunication. possibly do to some lack of clarity on my part, my focus was on the subject of the OP. Fair enough. I just don't why anyone cares about a raindrop when the tsunami is roaring in. But yeah, I'm down with fixing this problem as soon as someone demonstrates that there is a problem and that the fix is cost effective and that the fix doesn't end up disenfranchising more than the very, very occasional collateral damage type person. edited to add: I recognize that I may have drunk the liberal kool-aid on this one (regarding disenfranchisement). I remain comfortable with the statement above. Provide a solid ombudsman type function for those caught without valid ID for whatever reason and I'm comfortable with the disenfranchisement portion of the debate. Ombudsman fair enough, though here we are up to our necks with crusaders. your suggestion might be someone without an axe to grind.

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