RE: This is going to get me crucified, but

RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (Full Version)

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BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 9:30:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Why did your aunt go years not caring about voting then suddenly when we got voter id decided voting was the most important thing in the world to you. What's your basis for claiming she spent years not caring about voting? I didn't see that in anything DK wrote. And there have been times in my life when $15 was a fortune. She had let everything expire did you miss that? If she hadn't this would not have happened. And even if it did it was an isolated incident which doesn't condemn the whole system. On top of that Alabama has been working to make it easier so a problem that occurred a decade ago most likely wouldn't happen today. Wouldn't surprise though if he suddenly remembered that it happened 1n the last year or so.

dcnovice -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 9:41:55 PM)
quote: She had let everything expire did you miss that? If she hadn't this would not have happened. Here's what DK wrote: Actually my aunt, born at home in 1924, had quite a bit of trouble getting an ID because she has never had an official BC. All she had was the church birth record. It took several trips to Fort Payne, a 20 odd mile trip for a nearly 90 year old woman who no longer drives, to get that accepted and an ID card issued. If she wasn't so stubborn about it I doubt she would have kept at it. I'm sure a lot of other older people just gave up. Where's the part about everything expiring? To my eye, going to all that trouble to get an ID suggests caring deeply about voting.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 10:01:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: She had let everything expire did you miss that? If she hadn't this would not have happened. Here's what DK wrote: Actually my aunt, born at home in 1924, had quite a bit of trouble getting an ID because she has never had an official BC. All she had was the church birth record. It took several trips to Fort Payne, a 20 odd mile trip for a nearly 90 year old woman who no longer drives, to get that accepted and an ID card issued. If she wasn't so stubborn about it I doubt she would have kept at it. I'm sure a lot of other older people just gave up. Where's the part about everything expiring? To my eye, going to all that trouble to get an ID suggests caring deeply about voting. That is because he wrote another post after that explaining that she had allowed things to expire which is what led to her problems. This was after his bizarre attempt to claim that since he could get beer an a IL DL in AL but couldn't use it to vote here proves that voting does not accept the same forms of id that buying beer does plus several other forms.

DomKen -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 10:02:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: I didn't need my birth certificate when we went over to voter id. Neither did my son. What documentation did you need to establish that you were lawful voters? Don't remember for sure what I think my DL and military id did it. my son used the same. As I have told you they didn't go out of the way to make it hard on people here. The problem would have been if you didn't have an ID or if it was expired. That was my aunt's problem. Then you needed a BC and some old people don't have them. And it is actually fairly expensive to get it in some states if you don't already have a copy. For instance Alabama charges $15. So if you let everything expire that would establish your identity it can lead to problems. when I registered here from another state I had no such problems. Why did your aunt go years not caring about voting then suddenly when we got voter id decided voting was the most important thing in the world to you. Sounds almost like she did it so you would have a heart wrenching story with which to condemn voter id. Do you not understand that my aunt was in her 80's when Alabama changed the voter ID law? She hadn't driven in almost a decade so she had an expired license. But the new law requires the ID not be expired. So she needed a new one and the new requirement requires a BC while the old DL rules let people renew from their old DL so she had never needed a BC. Maybe you should think a little more before you start insulting people you know nothing about.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 10:03:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: She had let everything expire did you miss that? If she hadn't this would not have happened. Here's what DK wrote: Actually my aunt, born at home in 1924, had quite a bit of trouble getting an ID because she has never had an official BC. All she had was the church birth record. It took several trips to Fort Payne, a 20 odd mile trip for a nearly 90 year old woman who no longer drives, to get that accepted and an ID card issued. If she wasn't so stubborn about it I doubt she would have kept at it. I'm sure a lot of other older people just gave up. Where's the part about everything expiring? To my eye, going to all that trouble to get an ID suggests caring deeply about voting. Read post 117

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 10:05:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: I didn't need my birth certificate when we went over to voter id. Neither did my son. What documentation did you need to establish that you were lawful voters? Don't remember for sure what I think my DL and military id did it. my son used the same. As I have told you they didn't go out of the way to make it hard on people here. The problem would have been if you didn't have an ID or if it was expired. That was my aunt's problem. Then you needed a BC and some old people don't have them. And it is actually fairly expensive to get it in some states if you don't already have a copy. For instance Alabama charges $15. So if you let everything expire that would establish your identity it can lead to problems. when I registered here from another state I had no such problems. Why did your aunt go years not caring about voting then suddenly when we got voter id decided voting was the most important thing in the world to you. Sounds almost like she did it so you would have a heart wrenching story with which to condemn voter id. Do you not understand that my aunt was in her 80's when Alabama changed the voter ID law? She hadn't driven in almost a decade so she had an expired license. But the new law requires the ID not be expired. So she needed a new one and the new requirement requires a BC while the old DL rules let people renew from their old DL so she had never needed a BC. Maybe you should think a little more before you start insulting people you know nothing about. Do you not understand that was about getting a DL and had nothing to do with Voter id I didn't insult anyone

DomKen -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 10:06:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: She had let everything expire did you miss that? If she hadn't this would not have happened. Here's what DK wrote: Actually my aunt, born at home in 1924, had quite a bit of trouble getting an ID because she has never had an official BC. All she had was the church birth record. It took several trips to Fort Payne, a 20 odd mile trip for a nearly 90 year old woman who no longer drives, to get that accepted and an ID card issued. If she wasn't so stubborn about it I doubt she would have kept at it. I'm sure a lot of other older people just gave up. Where's the part about everything expiring? To my eye, going to all that trouble to get an ID suggests caring deeply about voting. Read post 117 Actually o jump to conclusion man that was two separate statements. my aunt did not have a BC so she could not pay the state to give her a copy. However for people who do need a copy $15 can be a barrier.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 10:07:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: The law would have to be crafted to avoid realistic problems We agree on this point. What are the "realistic problems" and how would you solve them? Most of the claimed problems are presumptions that it will put a burden on the poor without looking at or caring about the details. Alabama has had voter Id for several years and we haven't had the problems imagined by opponents. And still Alabama is working to make it easier for the poor. Maybe the rest of the country (in what would be a great stroke of irony) follow Alabama's lead in fighting voter fraud while protecting voters rights. The argument that voter Id bullies minorities into not voting haven't observed a voting place in Alabama. Actually my aunt, born at home in 1924, had quite a bit of trouble getting an ID because she has never had an official BC. All she had was the church birth record. It took several trips to Fort Payne, a 20 odd mile trip for a nearly 90 year old woman who no longer drives, to get that accepted and an ID card issued. If she wasn't so stubborn about it I doubt she would have kept at it. I'm sure a lot of other older people just gave up. Well I guess we are more advanced than that now. Of course my father, born in 23 and my mother born in 29 had no such problems, hmmm Did they have BC's? What records of their birth did they have when Alabama passed the new ID requirements? They do live in Alabama right? They lived in MO I forgot you are the expert on Alabama. My aunt does live in Alabama. The statement she had to go to Fort Payne should have clued you in. Do you actually live in the state? Never said she didn't, another cheap shot on your part, par for the course.

dcnovice -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 10:07:39 PM)
quote: That is because he wrote another post after that explaining that she had allowed things to expire which is what led to her problems. I see. So she should have renewed her license a decade in advance on the off chance Alabama might change its voting laws?

DomKen -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 10:08:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: I didn't need my birth certificate when we went over to voter id. Neither did my son. What documentation did you need to establish that you were lawful voters? Don't remember for sure what I think my DL and military id did it. my son used the same. As I have told you they didn't go out of the way to make it hard on people here. The problem would have been if you didn't have an ID or if it was expired. That was my aunt's problem. Then you needed a BC and some old people don't have them. And it is actually fairly expensive to get it in some states if you don't already have a copy. For instance Alabama charges $15. So if you let everything expire that would establish your identity it can lead to problems. when I registered here from another state I had no such problems. Why did your aunt go years not caring about voting then suddenly when we got voter id decided voting was the most important thing in the world to you. Sounds almost like she did it so you would have a heart wrenching story with which to condemn voter id. Do you not understand that my aunt was in her 80's when Alabama changed the voter ID law? She hadn't driven in almost a decade so she had an expired license. But the new law requires the ID not be expired. So she needed a new one and the new requirement requires a BC while the old DL rules let people renew from their old DL so she had never needed a BC. Maybe you should think a little more before you start insulting people you know nothing about. Do you not understand that was about getting a DL and had nothing to do with Voter id I didn't insult anyone She didn't get a DL! She can't see! She got the state photo ID that you need for voting. You still need a BC or have to go through a bunch of hoops and you definitely cannot use an expired DL.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 10:13:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: That is because he wrote another post after that explaining that she had allowed things to expire which is what led to her problems. I see. So she should have renewed her license a decade in advance on the off chance Alabama might change its voting laws? Did I say that? no He claims she had no form of id that would be valid and ran into trouble getting the license renewed. she had to have let several things expire to have been up against it like he claims. There are about 8 things which Alabama accepts and to be in that situation she would have let the others lapse too. And as I pointed out to him this was difficulty with DMV not with voter registration.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 10:17:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: I didn't need my birth certificate when we went over to voter id. Neither did my son. What documentation did you need to establish that you were lawful voters? Don't remember for sure what I think my DL and military id did it. my son used the same. As I have told you they didn't go out of the way to make it hard on people here. The problem would have been if you didn't have an ID or if it was expired. That was my aunt's problem. Then you needed a BC and some old people don't have them. And it is actually fairly expensive to get it in some states if you don't already have a copy. For instance Alabama charges $15. So if you let everything expire that would establish your identity it can lead to problems. when I registered here from another state I had no such problems. Why did your aunt go years not caring about voting then suddenly when we got voter id decided voting was the most important thing in the world to you. Sounds almost like she did it so you would have a heart wrenching story with which to condemn voter id. Do you not understand that my aunt was in her 80's when Alabama changed the voter ID law? She hadn't driven in almost a decade so she had an expired license. But the new law requires the ID not be expired. So she needed a new one and the new requirement requires a BC while the old DL rules let people renew from their old DL so she had never needed a BC. Maybe you should think a little more before you start insulting people you know nothing about. Do you not understand that was about getting a DL and had nothing to do with Voter id I didn't insult anyone She didn't get a DL! She can't see! She got the state photo ID that you need for voting. You still need a BC or have to go through a bunch of hoops and you definitely cannot use an expired DL. And the problem still wasn't the voter law, it was with the people who issued the photo id So you think I should just be able to call them up claim to be joe blow with no proof and be able to vote as him and me? Because while I know you can't see it that is what you are demanding. Of course you are from Chicago so that may seem reasonable to you.

DomKen -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 10:23:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: That is because he wrote another post after that explaining that she had allowed things to expire which is what led to her problems. I see. So she should have renewed her license a decade in advance on the off chance Alabama might change its voting laws? Did I say that? no He claims she had no form of id that would be valid and ran into trouble getting the license renewed. she had to have let several things expire to have been up against it like he claims. There are about 8 things which Alabama accepts and to be in that situation she would have let the others lapse too. And as I pointed out to him this was difficulty with DMV not with voter registration. She was almost 90 when the law was changed. It wasn't several She obviously didn't have: Valid Driver's License Valid Non-driver ID Valid Alabama Photo Voter ID Valid State Issued ID (Alabama or any other state) Valid Federal Issued ID Valid US Passport Valid Employee ID from Federal Government, State of Alabama, County Government, Municipality, Board, Authority, or other entity of this state Valid student or employee ID from a college or university in the State of Alabama (including postgraduate technical or professional schools) Valid Military ID Valid Tribal ID Which are the valid ID's in Alabama http://www.sos.state.al.us/Elections/VoterID.aspx So she had to get the state ID which since it officially requires a BC meant going through a bunch of nonsense.

dcnovice -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 10:30:16 PM)
quote: she had to have let several things expire to have been up against it like he claims. A few thoughts: -- The verb "had to have" lands us in the realm of conjecture, not fact. -- What were those "several things" that she "had to have let expire"? -- I'm seeing a pattern in your posts lately: Anyone who might pose an inconvenient counter-example to what you're selling must be character-assassinated. An unarmed teen shot by a "neighborhood watchman" who got in over his head must become a thug, an animal. An unarmed Alzheimer's patient who can't even open a door must become an invader ala the Visigoths, and his exhausted, grieving wife a negligent spouse. And now an elderly lady trying to do her patriotic duty and vote must become a fool for not shelling out to renew a DL she didn't need.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 10:31:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: That is because he wrote another post after that explaining that she had allowed things to expire which is what led to her problems. I see. So she should have renewed her license a decade in advance on the off chance Alabama might change its voting laws? For the sake of argument lets say it happened exactly the way he says it did. And lets say that somehow voter registration is responsible for the procedures of the people id Given al that it is still an isolated incident, and the state has been working to keep these things from happening. To say that because of one incident that happened a decade ago we should scrap the whole system is like saying that because the Obama care site will not admit that my son exists we should scrap that whole program. Besides when he didn't realize what he was saying DK stated that he would accept photo id for voting as soon as we implemented it for handguns. Since we have had that for decades I don't see that he has a leg to stand on.

errantgeek -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 10:31:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD And as I pointed out to him this was difficulty with DMV not with voter registration. THAT. IS. HIS. POINT. The problem doesn't lie with voter registration or voter ID's themselves in the case of these silly, silly laws, but rather the barriers that are erected simultaneously, to deprive people the ability to get the blasted ID's in the first place. Around the same time GOP legislators were pushing voter ID laws, they were also pushing things like SecureID and stricter driver's license/ID requirements like in the case of my home state of Indiana. Require paperwork on hand that often (read, nearly always) require backdoor payments in the form of fees to county clerks or other local governmental branches and offices. Require going to the BMV in person and, as we saw in Wisconsin between 2011-12, close BMV's in Democratic districts and severely restrict the hours of others. All of which make getting voter ID"s harder and costlier, and therefore less accessible to poor (working poor and otherwise) and minorities. That's from where the disenfranchisement comes.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 11:04:04 PM)
FR read this before continuing with your attacks. This represents a tightening of standards as last year they were accepting things like power bills. Valid ID at the Polls What will be valid at the polls on June 3, 2014? A voter can use any of the following forms of photo ID at the polls starting June 3, 2014: •Valid Driver's License •Valid Nondriver ID •Valid Alabama Photo Voter ID card •Valid State Issued ID (Alabama or any other state) •Valid Federal Issued ID •Valid US Passport •Valid Employee ID from Federal Government, State of Alabama, County, Municipality, Board, or other entity of this state •Valid student or employee ID from a public or private college or university in the State of Alabama (including postgraduate technical or professional schools) •Valid Military ID •Valid Tribal ID If a voter possesses any of these forms of ID, he/she is not eligible to receive a free Alabama photo voter ID card. The voter must bring one of these photo IDs to the polls on Election Day or place a copy of the ID in absentee ballot materials. A voter who is required to present valid photo identification but who does not do so will be allowed to vote a provisional ballot as provided for by law. The voter casting a provisional ballot will have until 5:00PM on the Friday after the election to submit valid photo identification, otherwise the ballot will not be counted. In addition, a voter who does not have a valid photo ID in his or her possession at the polls shall be permitted to vote a regular ballot if the individual is positively identified by two election officials as a voter on the poll list who is eligible to vote and the election officials sign a sworn affidavit so stating. What if I do not have any of these forms of ID? If a voter does not have one of the valid forms of photo ID, then that voter may obtain a free Alabama photo voter ID card or a free nondriver ID for purposes of voting. Free Nondriver ID As another option, a voter who does not have any of the acceptable forms of photo ID may obtain a free nondriver ID for purposes of voting. Voters will have to fill out a form with the Department of Public Safety and sign a form attesting that they do not have one of the valid forms of photo ID. A voter must comply with all rules set forth by the Department of Public Safety and adhere to those requirements in order to receive the free nondriver ID.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 11:08:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: errantgeek quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD And as I pointed out to him this was difficulty with DMV not with voter registration. THAT. IS. HIS. POINT. The problem doesn't lie with voter registration or voter ID's themselves in the case of these silly, silly laws, but rather the barriers that are erected simultaneously, to deprive people the ability to get the blasted ID's in the first place. Around the same time GOP legislators were pushing voter ID laws, they were also pushing things like SecureID and stricter driver's license/ID requirements like in the case of my home state of Indiana. Require paperwork on hand that often (read, nearly always) require backdoor payments in the form of fees to county clerks or other local governmental branches and offices. Require going to the BMV in person and, as we saw in Wisconsin between 2011-12, close BMV's in Democratic districts and severely restrict the hours of others. All of which make getting voter ID"s harder and costlier, and therefore less accessible to poor (working poor and otherwise) and minorities. That's from where the disenfranchisement comes. And an isolated incident does not condemn the whole system.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 11:22:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: she had to have let several things expire to have been up against it like he claims. A few thoughts: -- The verb "had to have" lands us in the realm of conjecture, not fact. -- What were those "several things" that she "had to have let expire"? -- I'm seeing a pattern in your posts lately: Anyone who might pose an inconvenient counter-example to what you're selling must be character-assassinated. An unarmed teen shot by a "neighborhood watchman" who got in over his head must become a thug, an animal. An unarmed Alzheimer's patient who can't even open a door must become an invader ala the Visigoths, and his exhausted, grieving wife a negligent spouse. And now an elderly lady trying to do her patriotic duty and vote must become a fool for not shelling out to renew a DL she didn't need. Wrong, so wrong. I do not engage in character assassination. I point out things which are awkward for you and you choose to label them as character assassination. For example since you chose to engage in cross thread attacks I never said the 71 year old was a major threat, I said Hendrix had no way of knowing he wasn't. And yes his wife should have been more aware of where he was but I also pointed out that she may have been too exhausted to realize he was gone. I stated repeatedly that had the cops shown 3 minutes earlier that Martin may very well have had a good stand your ground case. These are things which it is easy to forget in your obviously frustrated state. When people say stupid things like he was shot for carrying skittles while ignoring the fact that he was beating someone into the ground when shot you can't expect a reasonable person to treat them seriously. I never once called Martin a thug, some did but you are attributing their words to me. A sure sign that someone knows they are losing is when they decide, as you have just done to make me the subject of the discussion.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 11:45:54 PM)
FR there is no longer a charge note that a BC is only one of several things that will work, including social security card and w2 Instructions 1 Gather the required identification. To apply for a non-driver identification card, you must provide three forms of identification: a Social Security card, a primary form of identification such as a military ID, U.S. passport, certificate of naturalization or citizenship or a resident alien card. A secondary form of identification is also required if the primary identification doesn't contain a photo. Secondary forms include a marriage certificate, divorce decree, W-2 form, school ID or military ID. 2 Go to your local Alabama Department of Public Safety office (see Resources). 3 Complete the required form and pay the $23.50 fee (as of 2010). DPS staff members will take a photo of you to include on the identification card. They will then issue the card to you. Read more: http://www.ehow.com/how_6895884_do-identification-card-state-alabama_.html#ixzz2wlXBYKpY

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