RE: This is going to get me crucified, but

RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (Full Version)

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DomKen -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 6:38:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: The law would have to be crafted to avoid realistic problems We agree on this point. What are the "realistic problems" and how would you solve them? Most of the claimed problems are presumptions that it will put a burden on the poor without looking at or caring about the details. Alabama has had voter Id for several years and we haven't had the problems imagined by opponents. And still Alabama is working to make it easier for the poor. Maybe the rest of the country (in what would be a great stroke of irony) follow Alabama's lead in fighting voter fraud while protecting voters rights. The argument that voter Id bullies minorities into not voting haven't observed a voting place in Alabama. Actually my aunt, born at home in 1924, had quite a bit of trouble getting an ID because she has never had an official BC. All she had was the church birth record. It took several trips to Fort Payne, a 20 odd mile trip for a nearly 90 year old woman who no longer drives, to get that accepted and an ID card issued. If she wasn't so stubborn about it I doubt she would have kept at it. I'm sure a lot of other older people just gave up. Well I guess we are more advanced than that now. Of course my father, born in 23 and my mother born in 29 had no such problems, hmmm Did they have BC's? What records of their birth did they have when Alabama passed the new ID requirements? They do live in Alabama right?

DomKen -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 6:48:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD we don't have a lot of public transportation. We don't need it. All of your questions boil down to how is the government going to take full responsibility for people meeting the requirements to vote. We have a lot of places where you can register. Voter id is not as tight as the id required for tobacco or beer. A bar or liquor store in Alabama will accept any state's photo ID for the sale of booze. The voter ID law is considerably stricter. quote: People have no difficulty meeting the beer an tobacco requirement so it stands to reason that they should have no problem meeting the voter id requirement. You do know not everyone smokes or drinks right? Are you aware that in your very state there are entire dry counties? So there are people in your state who never show ID for those purposes.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 7:02:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: The law would have to be crafted to avoid realistic problems We agree on this point. What are the "realistic problems" and how would you solve them? Most of the claimed problems are presumptions that it will put a burden on the poor without looking at or caring about the details. Alabama has had voter Id for several years and we haven't had the problems imagined by opponents. And still Alabama is working to make it easier for the poor. Maybe the rest of the country (in what would be a great stroke of irony) follow Alabama's lead in fighting voter fraud while protecting voters rights. The argument that voter Id bullies minorities into not voting haven't observed a voting place in Alabama. Actually my aunt, born at home in 1924, had quite a bit of trouble getting an ID because she has never had an official BC. All she had was the church birth record. It took several trips to Fort Payne, a 20 odd mile trip for a nearly 90 year old woman who no longer drives, to get that accepted and an ID card issued. If she wasn't so stubborn about it I doubt she would have kept at it. I'm sure a lot of other older people just gave up. Well I guess we are more advanced than that now. Of course my father, born in 23 and my mother born in 29 had no such problems, hmmm Did they have BC's? What records of their birth did they have when Alabama passed the new ID requirements? They do live in Alabama right? They lived in MO I forgot you are the expert on Alabama.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 7:07:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD we don't have a lot of public transportation. We don't need it. All of your questions boil down to how is the government going to take full responsibility for people meeting the requirements to vote. We have a lot of places where you can register. Voter id is not as tight as the id required for tobacco or beer. A bar or liquor store in Alabama will accept any state's photo ID for the sale of booze. The voter ID law is considerably stricter. quote: People have no difficulty meeting the beer an tobacco requirement so it stands to reason that they should have no problem meeting the voter id requirement. You do know not everyone smokes or drinks right? Are you aware that in your very state there are entire dry counties? So there are people in your state who never show ID for those purposes. Actually the voter id law in Alabama allows several forms of id bars only take 4 Duh of course I don't know every smoker in the state but anyone with half a brain can figure out that they need an id. There being dry counties proves absolutely nothing they still sell tobacco there and they while you won't accept it there are less things that get you tobacco than will get you in the voting booth.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 7:13:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD we don't have a lot of public transportation. We don't need it. All of your questions boil down to how is the government going to take full responsibility for people meeting the requirements to vote. We have a lot of places where you can register. Voter id is not as tight as the id required for tobacco or beer. A bar or liquor store in Alabama will accept any state's photo ID for the sale of booze. The voter ID law is considerably stricter. quote: People have no difficulty meeting the beer an tobacco requirement so it stands to reason that they should have no problem meeting the voter id requirement. You do know not everyone smokes or drinks right? Are you aware that in your very state there are entire dry counties? So there are people in your state who never show ID for those purposes. I have voted in Alabama for 20 years. And I have sold beer and tobacco in Alabama. We were allowed to accept less than half as many id types to sell as the state recognizes ( and no those were not our rules they were the states rules)

DomKen -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 7:18:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD we don't have a lot of public transportation. We don't need it. All of your questions boil down to how is the government going to take full responsibility for people meeting the requirements to vote. We have a lot of places where you can register. Voter id is not as tight as the id required for tobacco or beer. A bar or liquor store in Alabama will accept any state's photo ID for the sale of booze. The voter ID law is considerably stricter. quote: People have no difficulty meeting the beer an tobacco requirement so it stands to reason that they should have no problem meeting the voter id requirement. You do know not everyone smokes or drinks right? Are you aware that in your very state there are entire dry counties? So there are people in your state who never show ID for those purposes. I have voted in Alabama for 20 years. And I have sold beer and tobacco in Alabama. We were allowed to accept less than half as many id types to sell as the state recognizes ( and no those were not our rules they were the states rules) I've bought booze with my Illinois DL in Alabama many times. I'm sure I can't register to vote with it.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 7:19:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD we don't have a lot of public transportation. We don't need it. All of your questions boil down to how is the government going to take full responsibility for people meeting the requirements to vote. We have a lot of places where you can register. Voter id is not as tight as the id required for tobacco or beer. A bar or liquor store in Alabama will accept any state's photo ID for the sale of booze. The voter ID law is considerably stricter. quote: People have no difficulty meeting the beer an tobacco requirement so it stands to reason that they should have no problem meeting the voter id requirement. You do know not everyone smokes or drinks right? Are you aware that in your very state there are entire dry counties? So there are people in your state who never show ID for those purposes. I have voted in Alabama for 20 years. And I have sold beer and tobacco in Alabama. We were allowed to accept less than half as many id types to sell as the state recognizes ( and no those were not our rules they were the states rules) I've bought booze with my Illinois DL in Alabama many times. I'm sure I can't register to vote with it. DuH it shows you aren't a resident, that is ridiculous.

DomKen -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 7:19:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: The law would have to be crafted to avoid realistic problems We agree on this point. What are the "realistic problems" and how would you solve them? Most of the claimed problems are presumptions that it will put a burden on the poor without looking at or caring about the details. Alabama has had voter Id for several years and we haven't had the problems imagined by opponents. And still Alabama is working to make it easier for the poor. Maybe the rest of the country (in what would be a great stroke of irony) follow Alabama's lead in fighting voter fraud while protecting voters rights. The argument that voter Id bullies minorities into not voting haven't observed a voting place in Alabama. Actually my aunt, born at home in 1924, had quite a bit of trouble getting an ID because she has never had an official BC. All she had was the church birth record. It took several trips to Fort Payne, a 20 odd mile trip for a nearly 90 year old woman who no longer drives, to get that accepted and an ID card issued. If she wasn't so stubborn about it I doubt she would have kept at it. I'm sure a lot of other older people just gave up. Well I guess we are more advanced than that now. Of course my father, born in 23 and my mother born in 29 had no such problems, hmmm Did they have BC's? What records of their birth did they have when Alabama passed the new ID requirements? They do live in Alabama right? They lived in MO I forgot you are the expert on Alabama. My aunt does live in Alabama. The statement she had to go to Fort Payne should have clued you in. Do you actually live in the state?

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 7:25:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD we don't have a lot of public transportation. We don't need it. All of your questions boil down to how is the government going to take full responsibility for people meeting the requirements to vote. We have a lot of places where you can register. Voter id is not as tight as the id required for tobacco or beer. A bar or liquor store in Alabama will accept any state's photo ID for the sale of booze. The voter ID law is considerably stricter. quote: People have no difficulty meeting the beer an tobacco requirement so it stands to reason that they should have no problem meeting the voter id requirement. You do know not everyone smokes or drinks right? Are you aware that in your very state there are entire dry counties? So there are people in your state who never show ID for those purposes. I have voted in Alabama for 20 years. And I have sold beer and tobacco in Alabama. We were allowed to accept less than half as many id types to sell as the state recognizes ( and no those were not our rules they were the states rules) I've bought booze with my Illinois DL in Alabama many times. I'm sure I can't register to vote with it. Can you truly refuse to comprehend that the purpose of showing the dl is not the same in both cases It has no effect on the fact that type of id that is valid for beer is valid for voting plus several more the fact that your DL shows you are a resident is the same as if it showed you were sixteen it would be a valid form but the information would prove you were ineligible, thank you for demonstrating that the id system works.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 7:57:20 PM)
"I've bought booze with my Illinois DL in Alabama many times. I'm sure I can't register to vote with it. " A nineteen year old with an Alabama DL can use it as id to vote but he gets turned away when he tries to buy beer with it

JeffBC -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 7:58:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Ombudsman fair enough, though here we are up to our necks with crusaders. your suggestion might be someone without an axe to grind. "Ombudsman" might've been the wrong term. here's the concern. The stories they feed us in the liberal kool-aid typically involve some person who, for whatever reasons, doesn't have ready access to their birth certificate and from there it all spirals into the bottomless pit of bureaucracy trying to establish that this person is, in fact, a citizen. So assuming that the libs are right for at least some cases, then there ought to be some place to call for assistance. I wasn't looking for anyone to crusade for anything. More of a bureaucratic aid than a crusader. I'd also like to make sure that the new requirements are solidly publicized well before the election they will be enacted to avoid (insofar as possible) people getting turned away at the polls. I don't think either of those things is ridiculous and ought to fit solidly into any plan to "clean up elections". edited to add: Domken is an expert in everything near as I know.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 8:02:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Ombudsman fair enough, though here we are up to our necks with crusaders. your suggestion might be someone without an axe to grind. "Ombudsman" might've been the wrong term. here's the concern. The stories they feed us in the liberal kool-aid typically involve some person who, for whatever reasons, doesn't have ready access to their birth certificate and from there it all spirals into the bottomless pit of bureaucracy trying to establish that this person is, in fact, a citizen. So assuming that the libs are right for at least some cases, then there ought to be some place to call for assistance. I wasn't looking for anyone to crusade for anything. More of a bureaucratic aid than a crusader. I'd also like to make sure that the new requirements are solidly publicized well before the election they will be enacted to avoid (insofar as possible) people getting turned away at the polls. I don't think either of those things is ridiculous and ought to fit solidly into any plan to "clean up elections". edited to add: Domken is an expert in everything near as I know. I didn't need my birth certificate when we went over to voter id. Neither did my son. I understood what you meant, someone to speak for them and to help them through the maze.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 8:09:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Ombudsman fair enough, though here we are up to our necks with crusaders. your suggestion might be someone without an axe to grind. "Ombudsman" might've been the wrong term. here's the concern. The stories they feed us in the liberal kool-aid typically involve some person who, for whatever reasons, doesn't have ready access to their birth certificate and from there it all spirals into the bottomless pit of bureaucracy trying to establish that this person is, in fact, a citizen. So assuming that the libs are right for at least some cases, then there ought to be some place to call for assistance. I wasn't looking for anyone to crusade for anything. More of a bureaucratic aid than a crusader. I'd also like to make sure that the new requirements are solidly publicized well before the election they will be enacted to avoid (insofar as possible) people getting turned away at the polls. I don't think either of those things is ridiculous and ought to fit solidly into any plan to "clean up elections". edited to add: Domken is an expert in everything near as I know. Alabama is kind of touchy about turning people away at the polls so they were careful about avoiding it.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 8:16:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Ombudsman fair enough, though here we are up to our necks with crusaders. your suggestion might be someone without an axe to grind. "Ombudsman" might've been the wrong term. here's the concern. The stories they feed us in the liberal kool-aid typically involve some person who, for whatever reasons, doesn't have ready access to their birth certificate and from there it all spirals into the bottomless pit of bureaucracy trying to establish that this person is, in fact, a citizen. So assuming that the libs are right for at least some cases, then there ought to be some place to call for assistance. I wasn't looking for anyone to crusade for anything. More of a bureaucratic aid than a crusader. I'd also like to make sure that the new requirements are solidly publicized well before the election they will be enacted to avoid (insofar as possible) people getting turned away at the polls. I don't think either of those things is ridiculous and ought to fit solidly into any plan to "clean up elections". edited to add: Domken is an expert in everything near as I know. I cannot say that has never happened anywhere, just that I don't know of it happening, however unlike some people I don't know everything about anything.

dcnovice -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 8:21:43 PM)
quote: I didn't need my birth certificate when we went over to voter id. Neither did my son. What documentation did you need to establish that you were lawful voters?

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 8:26:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: I didn't need my birth certificate when we went over to voter id. Neither did my son. What documentation did you need to establish that you were lawful voters? Don't remember for sure what I think my DL and military id did it. my son used the same. As I have told you they didn't go out of the way to make it hard on people here.

DomKen -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 9:02:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: I didn't need my birth certificate when we went over to voter id. Neither did my son. What documentation did you need to establish that you were lawful voters? Don't remember for sure what I think my DL and military id did it. my son used the same. As I have told you they didn't go out of the way to make it hard on people here. The problem would have been if you didn't have an ID or if it was expired. That was my aunt's problem. Then you needed a BC and some old people don't have them. And it is actually fairly expensive to get it in some states if you don't already have a copy. For instance Alabama charges $15.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 9:13:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: I didn't need my birth certificate when we went over to voter id. Neither did my son. What documentation did you need to establish that you were lawful voters? Don't remember for sure what I think my DL and military id did it. my son used the same. As I have told you they didn't go out of the way to make it hard on people here. The problem would have been if you didn't have an ID or if it was expired. That was my aunt's problem. Then you needed a BC and some old people don't have them. And it is actually fairly expensive to get it in some states if you don't already have a copy. For instance Alabama charges $15. $15 is expensive? And you are saying that because one person fell into special circumstances the whole system sucks. Do you see the flaw in your thinking. even you have to see that that is not standard, assuming it happened just the you remember it.

BamaD -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 9:20:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: I didn't need my birth certificate when we went over to voter id. Neither did my son. What documentation did you need to establish that you were lawful voters? Don't remember for sure what I think my DL and military id did it. my son used the same. As I have told you they didn't go out of the way to make it hard on people here. The problem would have been if you didn't have an ID or if it was expired. That was my aunt's problem. Then you needed a BC and some old people don't have them. And it is actually fairly expensive to get it in some states if you don't already have a copy. For instance Alabama charges $15. So if you let everything expire that would establish your identity it can lead to problems. when I registered here from another state I had no such problems. Why did your aunt go years not caring about voting then suddenly when we got voter id decided voting was the most important thing in the world to you. Sounds almost like she did it so you would have a heart wrenching story with which to condemn voter id.

dcnovice -> RE: This is going to get me crucified, but (3/22/2014 9:27:57 PM)
quote: Why did your aunt go years not caring about voting then suddenly when we got voter id decided voting was the most important thing in the world to you. What's your basis for claiming she spent years not caring about voting? I didn't see that in anything DK wrote. And there have been times in my life when $15 was a fortune.

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