RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral?

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrangement for Fred Phelps' funeral?

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 7:56:53 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I mean, for instance, would Phelps and the WBC have been had up by the law had they turned away openly gay people who wanted to attend their church?

Nope. It's a First Amendment thing. You can Google it if you like.

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Post #: 21

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 8:28:52 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There is a difference in my book between not baking a cake for someone gay and not making flower arrangements from someone who wanted me dead...What do you think?

Butch

Same thing.

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Post #: 22

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 8:30:37 PM

kdsub

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quote:

Both are service providers. Both may have a philosophical/ethical reason not to wish be involved. If we are going to say that a business does not have the right to refuse to provide their services based on that, then the law must apply equally.

No I don't believe you do see my point...By refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding he is refusing a group of people because of their sexual orientation. IF... a gay florist were to refuse service to Phelps it would not be to a group but to one specific man that has made personal threats against him. There is a very big difference... If I were a straight baker and a man had called for my death... I would not serve him even if he were gay and be within my rights... But I would not be if I did not serve him because he was gay only.

Butch

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Post #: 23

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 8:30:58 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

I have a feeling that a gay florist would jump at the opportunity for the notoriety alone.

But what if they wanted no part of such an order, Hill? Should they be required to do so, in violation of their own personal feelings about providing their services to an event they had no desire to support or endorse?

No

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Post #: 24

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 8:33:18 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

I'd say yes, they should provide their services should they be asked of it (not that they ever would). They don't have any more reason to deny their customers than a bigot. Yes, these people hate gays. But why should they reciprocate hate with more hate? Money is money, no matter what hand it comes from.

The question was not should they do it but .if they chose not to, should they be forced.

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Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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Post #: 25

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 8:35:19 PM

DaddySatyr

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The last part is only correct (by your own logic) if the guy in the casket had called for "Butch's" death.

I do see your point, to an extent, though; a gay wedding is a bit different than a funeral for someone who's shown so much hate toward so many people.

Now, when you're dealing with the law, emotion is supposed to be left at the door so, after all the rationalizations, it's about a business's (ANY business) right to refuse service to anyone.

Either you're for or against.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

No I don't believe you do see my point...By refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding he is refusing a group of people because of their sexual orientation. IF... a gay florist were to refuse service to Phelps it would not be to a group but to one specific man that has made personal threats against him. There is a very big difference... If I were a straight baker and a man had called for my death... I would not serve him even if he were gay and be within my rights... But I would not be if I did not serve him because he was gay only.

Butch

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/24/2014 8:36:31 PM >

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 8:41:02 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Both are service providers. Both may have a philosophical/ethical reason not to wish be involved. If we are going to say that a business does not have the right to refuse to provide their services based on that, then the law must apply equally.

No I don't believe you do see my point...By refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding he is refusing a group of people because of their sexual orientation. IF... a gay florist were to refuse service to Phelps it would not be to a group but to one specific man that has made personal threats against him. There is a very big difference... If I were a straight baker and a man had called for my death... I would not serve him even if he were gay and be within my rights... But I would not be if I did not serve him because he was gay only.

Butch

No in both cases it is because they disagree with the people holding the function.
the wedding could go to a gay baker, the church to a straight florist.
I once worked with a company that sold supplies to churches and we refused to do business
with Westboro.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 27

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 8:42:41 PM

Tkman117

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

Dude I literally just supplied a straight up answer

Dude, it's almost like I don't give a shit what you think, and am just scrolling past your posts, ain't it?

Ooh, scathing, and here I thought you were asking people what they think? Or are you just trying to show the world how narrow minded you are?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 28

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 8:43:14 PM

Lynnxz

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People have the right to refuse service.

Personally, if I was a gay florist, I'd jump at the chance to make a buck off of someone that despised me with every fiber of his being. Irony is fun.

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Post #: 29

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 8:45:06 PM

DarkSteven

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Too narrow, Rich, too narrow. Let's open it up to:

What are acceptable grounds under which a merchant should be able to discriminate?

Obviously, race, religion, gender, etc. are out.

Note that in Rich's case, the hypothetical discrimination is due to behavior (being a hateful asshole) instead of inherent charcteristic (sexual orientation).

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Post #: 30

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 8:45:56 PM

kdsub

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I believe in court the florist would win any suit brought against him under these circumstances. He is not refusing service to a group but only to an individual for obvious reasons even if not directed at him specifically.

Of course I am not a lawyer and we shall see the outcome if a suit of this type is brought to court... In the mean time my opinion is as good as yours...

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to DaddySatyr)

Post #: 31

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 8:47:27 PM

dcnovice

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FR

I'd not only delight in creating this arrangement, I'd even donate it.

More seriously, one of the reasons I didn't weigh in on the Arizona thread is that I find this topic a bit too thorny for easy answers.

In general, I don't think folks should be forced to violate their principles to do business, and I'd honestly respect the right of a baker not to make a cake for my wedding.

That said, I find related conundra harder to decide:

-- Jane lives in a state where medical marijuana is legal, and it's been a godsend during her chemo anorexia. But alas, her script has run out, Dr. Feelgood is on vacation, and Dr. Reagan (who's on call) doesn't believe in medical marijuana. Does Dr. Reagan have the right to refuse to renew Jane's script?

-- In another village in the same state, Priggish Properties refuses on principle to rent space to a medical marijuana clinic, even though the would-be tenant is financially and otherwise qualified. We all okay with that?

-- The East Bumcrack Gazette, owned by fundamentalist Christians, refuses to carry an ad for Dignity, the LGBT Catholic group trying to spread the word about Holy Week services. Whose First Amendment rights should prevail? Does the answer change if the organization trying to place the ad is a synagogue?

-- An unreconstructed town clerk who sincerely believes miscegenation is wrong refuses to grant Kym and Mark a marriage license because they're an interracial couple. Whose rights trump whose?

-- The devout Catholic pharmacist in Bedford Falls declines to sell condoms to newlywed George Bailey because the church opposes unnatural forms of birth control. And don't even think of trying to buy contraceptives if you're not married! How does all that fit within our framework?

-- Cave Dweller Construction bids on a blind project and gets the job. Then it turns out that the client is an imam seeking to build a mosque. The imam has all the proper permits, but CDC's owners want to pull out. They allowed to?

These are just a few top-of-my-head puzzles. Anyone have a philosophical framework that can resolve them consistently? I sure don't.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 3/24/2014 9:01:51 PM >

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(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 32

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 8:47:34 PM

DaddySatyr

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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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I'm neither gay nor a florist but when I put my particulars into a situation (a service I could provide), I think it would be detrimental to me, personally.

I don't know if I could do my best work if my heart weren't into it.

For example; if someone hired my band to play at wedding or funeral for one of the posters here who've shown so much animus toward me, I don't know if I could really get behind it. Hence, I wouldn't be providing my best work (music is a very emotional thing) and people that are guests might pick up on that which would be detrimental to possible future employment.

I think either choice is fine as long as the business has a choice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lynnxz

People have the right to refuse service.

Personally, if I was a gay florist, I'd jump at the chance to make a buck off of someone that despised me with every fiber of his being. Irony is fun.

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/24/2014 9:14:25 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 8:48:09 PM

DomKen

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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

In light of recent events in Arizona, I'm curious to see how those who support making a Christian owned bakery do a cake for a gay wedding (for example) would feel about requiring a gay florist (for example) provide their services to a Phelps funeral?

OP has been edited for clarity - the "church" would not be the only potential client to order an arrangement.

A business has the right to refuse to do business with a person. It is when they refuse to business with any person of some group that it becomes an issue.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 34

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 8:48:59 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
I shut down the "should" factory a long time ago, and am much the happier for it.

If I owned the bakery, I'd be sensitive to the situation, and as the baker, I'd realize I have choices.

Well then, let's rephrase, just for you.

If it is appropriate to force a business owner to provide services to an event he/she does not believe in, why would the participants in a different event not be entitled to equal protection under the law?

Actually, the events are quite similar - a traditional ceremony to mark a significant milestone in life. Hell, about the only time I'll set foot in a church is when someone is getting married or buried.

Boy...... I wonder where this utter stupidity cam from......

Oh yeah.............that`s where......

"Penis cakes and gay orgies: Tea Partier frets about wedding ‘tyranny’ in Arizona"

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/02/27/cakes-and-gay-tea-partier-frets-about-wedding-tyranny-in-arizona/

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Post #: 35

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 8:53:22 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
Note that in Rich's case, the hypothetical discrimination is due to behavior (being a hateful asshole) instead of inherent charcteristic (sexual orientation).

But Freddy is dead, Steve. He's not the customer.

Say someone from the sensitive wing on Fred's death decides to really kill that church with kindness, and places an order for a delivery. If we are applying the Arizona requirement in an equal way, what right does a florist have to refuse the order, if not wanting any part of such a ceremony isn't good enough?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 36

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 8:56:45 PM

Owner59

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I would mention content of character and consequence of conduct but I don`t think you`d understand such sophisticated concepts.....

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 37

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 9:04:42 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Anyone have a philosophical framework that can resolve them consistently? I sure don't.

Those flowers are great, DC!

For the framework, I think we need to draw hard lines between public and private.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 38

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 9:09:31 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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To legalize discrimination......we got that already and NO!.....Lol!

Nice try rapping prejudice in freedom and trying to selling it as progress....

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/24/2014 9:10:25 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 39

RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/24/2014 9:11:03 PM

dcnovice

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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

Those flowers are great, DC!

I thought so too.

Also found a cool floral rainbow, but the image was huge.

quote:

For the framework, I think we need to draw hard lines between public and private.

That might be a good starting point. Aside from the town clerk, all my examples are in the private sector.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 40

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