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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 3:33:09 PM   
PeonForHer


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FR

I guess most of us have heard the line, attributed to Voltaire, "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." One problem with it is that Voltaire wouldn't be able to defend anyone's right to say anything if somebody got to him first to kill him.

The liberal worldview in which debates like these take place presupposes a lot of things. In particular, it presupposes that the world has moved beyond the stage of the 'condition of the beasts', wherein, as Thomas Hobbes put it, " . . . there is no place for industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain: and consequently no culture of the earth; no navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by sea; no commodious building; no instruments of moving, and removing, such things as require much force; no knowledge of the face of the earth; no account of time; no arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death; and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."

A precondition of this view that 'everyone has a right to be heard' is that everyone has a right to the conditions necessary to *say things that might be heard*. That is, they have to have certain 'baseline' conditions of society met. They'll need Maslow's baseline in his hierarchy of needs, for instance. In particular, in the context of Fred Phelps and gays, they'll need not to be fucked up in the head by the belief that God hates them; more generally, they'll need to know that there aren't thugs around who'll beat them up because Fred Phelps has, in effect, told them that they're legitimate targets - because God says so. (If God hates gays, what does that make gays - demons? It's actually horrific to follow that line of 'reasoning'.) Fred Phelps articulated a message in which gays, if that message were to be widely absorbed, would be living in horrible, miserable fear - just as Hobbes described.

Fred Phelps used the liberal world view - that which follows Voltaire's view that everyone has a right to free speech - to undermine the very foundations on which the value of free speech rests. At the same time he profited nicely by liberals' belief that, much though they might despise his views, he should still be left to speak them. I recall a Jew I knew at university, talking about Brit Student Unions' much-vexed policy of 'No platform for racists', saying: "Their words don't just make life more difficult for us, they lead to proper damage to us. For them it's just a religious or philosophical thing - for some of their listeners, it's about who it's OK to harm. No, you don't give them a platform. You just beat them up. They take the right to damage your life, so you take the right to damage theirs. Equal freedoms, eh? "

All of which is to say, in a roundabout way, if I were a gay florist, asked to provide wreathes for Phelps's funeral, there would be two options for me, both logically valid. One would be to say 'Yes, I'll provide those wreathes' - on the basis that this might show just how much more human I am than was Phelps. On the other hand I might think, 'Phelps was a shit who didn't respect the laws of decent society. I owe him nothing'. And that would also be valid. He and his supporters do not *get* to invoke the fundamental laws of liberal society because Phelps didn't abide by them.






< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 3/25/2014 3:44:11 PM >


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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 3:43:30 PM   
Tkman117


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That was very well written and you hit a lot of good points. Here in Canada we have hate crime laws and hate speech laws, which while people are still allowed to speak freely, it is forbidden to spread hate propaganda or to discriminate against any identifiable group, among which gays and other groups are included. So while people are entitled to their views and opinions, any attempt to spread said views and opinions which are hateful in nature are usually called out on it and have to face the judicial system.

Honestly, to me, I can't think of a much better system which allows people the right to free speech while also removing something which is foul and hateful and completely unnecessary from society. Sure these hateful opinions still exist, but at least we don't have to deal with morons protesting funerals.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 3:52:04 PM   
Owner59


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That is a completely reasonable compromise between apposing rights......

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 5:18:29 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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No...but he should want to:)

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 8:19:54 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I am changing my opinion although still not agreeing with you.



Well, Butch, at least that is a more agreeable sort of disagreement.

There was a small business owner in the extended family when I was a kid, and he had a whole string of signs behind his counter. "In God we trust - all others pay cash" was a good example. Right in the center point was the "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." He did upholstery work, and made custom furniture, and it makes me laugh pretty hard to imagine somebody going into his shop and expecting to place an order for a nice custom bondage table.

We can get into grey area examples pretty quickly, when it comes to private service providers for essential services (how about a tow truck owner deciding he won't pull anyone out of a snowy ditch if they have an Obama bumper sticker?) but my default is going to be to right of a sole proprietor to decide what kind of business he is going to run, and what sort of clients she is going to cater to.

A while back, DC posted the link to a very good article about Westboro Baptist. The Phelps family law firm, for example, wouldn't take a divorce case if it was a first divorce, but if you were already going to hell for the sin of adultery anyway, they'd be happy to hash out the details on following spouses.

If a homophobe operated business (and they ain't all Christians, by any means) doesn't want to be part of a gay wedding, I think it is contrary to the concept of individual liberty in our nation for them to face any sort of legal sanction for that. If a florist (whether gay or maybe just a proud veteran), doesn't want to do an arrangement for Phelps, it would be just as wrong for them to face a legal penalty.

Put it into the code of ethics for professional organizations. If our one truck tow truck driver wants the sticker in his window that says he's in good standing among his peers, he's going to swear to help whatever driver needs aid. Gee, he can't get on the call-out list for any government agency, or a contract with any other agency that gets government money, unless he's certified by the trade organization? Sucks to be him, don't it.

And let's face it. If a small business doesn't want your business, there is a whole universe of ways they can avoid taking it, on a case by case basis.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 8:21:24 PM   
cloudboy


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The tricky thing is, many Americans view gays the same as we view Phelps.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 8:26:49 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
I shut down the "should" factory a long time ago, and am much the happier for it.

If I owned the bakery, I'd be sensitive to the situation, and as the baker, I'd realize I have choices.



Well then, let's rephrase, just for you.

If it is appropriate to force a business owner to provide services to an event he/she does not believe in, why would the participants in a different event not be entitled to equal protection under the law?

Actually, the events are quite similar - a traditional ceremony to mark a significant milestone in life. Hell, about the only time I'll set foot in a church is when someone is getting married or buried.

????

Clearly, a business owner can pick and choose which jobs to do -- and not do. What business owner is "forced" to provide services to any event? Hell, that's rule #1 of marketing -- weeding out inappropriate customers so you can focus on those who are a good fit.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 8:52:02 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
Honestly, to me, I can't think of a much better system which allows people the right to free speech while also removing something which is foul and hateful and completely unnecessary from society. Sure these hateful opinions still exist, but at least we don't have to deal with morons protesting funerals.



That's just lovely, except for the part where somebody gets to sit down and pick what ideas are hateful, and what aren't, and which groups get special protection, and which don't. There are a few of our UK participants here who'd get themselves locked away for speaking about a protected group in their country, the way they talk about supporters of a socio-political philosophy and/or a political party, in a country where they don't live.

If your government gets to hold the last word on which thoughts are right or wrong for public discussion, or which facts are true and which are lies for media reports, what happens when the government gets onto the wrong side, or when they themselves are the ones doing the lying?

Nope. We do it much differently here, in accordance with the founding principles of our country. Some of us are downright fucking militant about it.

Here on this thread though, the First Amendment aspect in question is the right of a private business to be an expression of the proprietor's values. The market can and should judge him, but if a baker believes it will put a stain on his soul to write "Adam and Steve" on a wedding cake, it shouldn't be against the law for him to say his oven is already booked for that date if it comes up.



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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 8:59:41 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
????




It's an Arizona thing. I'm surprised you missed it. As I recall, Muse, you watch even less TV than I do, but it was in the papers a bit.

The super-quick recap is "Republicans baa-aaad."

You could also check out the Hobby Lobby case, heading for the Supreme Court, for a broader overview of the bigger issue.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 9:03:57 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

Honestly, to me, I can't think of a much better system which allows people the right to free speech while also removing something which is foul and hateful and completely unnecessary from society.

Well think harder. So-called "foul and hateful" speech is exactly what free speech is designed to protect. Heresy was once considered foul and hateful speech, and your utopia is no different in kind. The notion that you can have laws against "hate speech" and still have freedom of speech is mind-numbing bullshit.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/25/2014 9:36:33 PM >

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 9:18:02 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
In light of recent events in Arizona, I'm curious to see how those who support making a Christian owned bakery do a cake for a gay wedding (for example) would feel about requiring a gay florist (for example) provide their services to a Phelps funeral?

I'm not sure what the current law reads so I don't know. If I was emperor, "yes they should". If you can't discriminate on the basis of <x> then you just can't do it no matter how much I may sympathize with your cause.

Once again we are in agreement

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 10:18:01 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
In light of recent events in Arizona, I'm curious to see how those who support making a Christian owned bakery do a cake for a gay wedding (for example) would feel about requiring a gay florist (for example) provide their services to a Phelps funeral?
OP has been edited for clarity - the "church" would not be the only potential client to order an arrangement.


This article doesn't answer the question specifically, but does speak touch on the policy you're touching on.

I don't really agree with the sentiments of the article, but it is a thought provoking read.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 10:32:07 PM   
DaddySatyr


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I liked it, as well but the article chooses its subject very carefully.

The author makes a good point:

quote:



In a bilateral exchange, even those where money sits on one side of the deal, there is no ethical difference between the two participants. To make a claim that the farmer must sell since, if he does not sell, the customer goes wanting for goods is no different from making the opposite claim: the customer must buy since, if he does not buy, the farmer goes wanting for cash, as well as all that cash provides (the ability to pay utility bills, the doctor, the dentist, etc.).



Unfortunately, that doesn't exactly mean the same thing when you're dealing with large, national (or bigger) corporations. The stakes are a lot higher, financially speaking but even a massive boycott is not going to prevent the business owner from paying his bills. I'm reminded just recently of CVS deciding to throw away what could amount (by their estimates) to $1.2 Billion in sales.

I support their decision and I think it's commendable that they stand up for their principles but does anyone amongst us think that the Chairman of the Board is suddenly going to be living in a cardboard box?

In my example, the people who get screwed are the employees of the big company. Don't worry about "Mr. Big". He's doing just fine.



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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

This article doesn't answer the question specifically, but does speak touch on the policy you're touching on.

I don't really agree with the sentiments of the article, but it is a thought provoking read.




< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/25/2014 10:39:02 PM >


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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/25/2014 10:51:11 PM   
Tkman117


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
Honestly, to me, I can't think of a much better system which allows people the right to free speech while also removing something which is foul and hateful and completely unnecessary from society. Sure these hateful opinions still exist, but at least we don't have to deal with morons protesting funerals.



That's just lovely, except for the part where somebody gets to sit down and pick what ideas are hateful, and what aren't, and which groups get special protection, and which don't. There are a few of our UK participants here who'd get themselves locked away for speaking about a protected group in their country, the way they talk about supporters of a socio-political philosophy and/or a political party, in a country where they don't live.

If your government gets to hold the last word on which thoughts are right or wrong for public discussion, or which facts are true and which are lies for media reports, what happens when the government gets onto the wrong side, or when they themselves are the ones doing the lying?

Nope. We do it much differently here, in accordance with the founding principles of our country. Some of us are downright fucking militant about it.

Here on this thread though, the First Amendment aspect in question is the right of a private business to be an expression of the proprietor's values. The market can and should judge him, but if a baker believes it will put a stain on his soul to write "Adam and Steve" on a wedding cake, it shouldn't be against the law for him to say his oven is already booked for that date if it comes up.




Nice try at the slippery slope bud, but we worked around that ourselves. If you're not too busy justifying the kind of behaviour that much of the developed world dislikes you for, why don't you go ahead and give it a read. There hasn't been a single case where the law has been applied unjustly, otherwise it would have been repealed, simple as that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_Canada

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/26/2014 7:34:24 AM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The tricky thing is, many Americans view gays the same as we view Phelps.



Not necessarily as many as some might think though. (And I mean that in general, not directed at you.)

I'm not sure how much I want to elaborate because I don't want to derail the thread into a new tangent, but there is a line there that a lot of people act as if it's not there...but not everyone who believes that homosexuality is a sin hates homosexuals, or even views them negatively. A lot of us were raised believing it was a sin, but no worse than any sins I have done, and were raised with the belief that God loves us and forgives sin.

Which could lead to some situations that on the surface would seem contradictory to those who don't (or refuse) to understand...if I were a baker approached by a gay couple to make a wedding cake, there was a time I'd have been really uncomfortable doing so...but during that same time, when my friend got married (not a legal marriage, but had the ceremony), I didn't hesitate to go to the ceremony, and cheered him on, because I was supporting him as my friend.

But while part of me giggles with glee at people who do act out of hatred not being allowed to get away with it, I still think people should have the freedom to decide who they want to associate with do business with, even if some do it for really scummy reasons. So I think the baker *should* be allowed to not have to bake the cake for a gay wedding (though these days I probably would bake it; after all it's just a cake, not a mission statement), and I think the florist should be willing to say "No" to delivering flowers for the Phelps. (Though I got a kick out of Lynn's sense of irony a few pages back.)

But seeing as I'm still drugged up after a rather trying hospital stay, I'll probably have to check back later to see if I made any sense.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/26/2014 7:53:18 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117
Honestly, to me, I can't think of a much better system which allows people the right to free speech while also removing something which is foul and hateful and completely unnecessary from society. Sure these hateful opinions still exist, but at least we don't have to deal with morons protesting funerals.



That's just lovely, except for the part where somebody gets to sit down and pick what ideas are hateful, and what aren't, and which groups get special protection, and which don't. There are a few of our UK participants here who'd get themselves locked away for speaking about a protected group in their country, the way they talk about supporters of a socio-political philosophy and/or a political party, in a country where they don't live.

If your government gets to hold the last word on which thoughts are right or wrong for public discussion, or which facts are true and which are lies for media reports, what happens when the government gets onto the wrong side, or when they themselves are the ones doing the lying?

Nope. We do it much differently here, in accordance with the founding principles of our country. Some of us are downright fucking militant about it.

Here on this thread though, the First Amendment aspect in question is the right of a private business to be an expression of the proprietor's values. The market can and should judge him, but if a baker believes it will put a stain on his soul to write "Adam and Steve" on a wedding cake, it shouldn't be against the law for him to say his oven is already booked for that date if it comes up.




Nice try at the slippery slope bud, but we worked around that ourselves. If you're not too busy justifying the kind of behaviour that much of the developed world dislikes you for, why don't you go ahead and give it a read. There hasn't been a single case where the law has been applied unjustly, otherwise it would have been repealed, simple as that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech_laws_in_Canada



The right is so bereft of ideas and purpose,that they have to make up hypothetical examples, that don`t exist in reality...... to make an argument.....


I would say that`s an unequivocal liberal victory over America`s douche-bags like phelps and the gop.


Notice the few republicans (from who`s party wbc got it`s inspiration) that seemed a little to eager to desecrate phelps grave?


This how adults and liberals handle world-class douche-bags.....





< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/26/2014 8:02:45 AM >


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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/26/2014 8:04:11 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Sexual orientation and religion are BOTH protected classes under the Civil Rights Act. The gay florist would be acting illegally imo, denying service for Fred's religious activities and his religious funeral.


There are legalities and then there are realities. The reality is that one chooses their religion, one does not choose their sexual orientation.

As I understand it the religious are chosen; they do not choose. But that is for a different thread. The Civil Rights Laws protect certain classes against discriminatory actions. Religion is such a class. The florist is wrong. Fred could rise from his grave and take the matter to court. Otherwise he has no recourse.

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/26/2014 8:11:44 AM   
mnottertail


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A gay florist should probably be just shot outright, as a stereotype


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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/26/2014 8:35:40 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

A gay florist should probably be just shot outright, as a stereotype


Really! How dare he?

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RE: Should a gay florist be required to make an arrange... - 3/26/2014 8:58:47 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

The right is so bereft of ideas and purpose,that they have to make up hypothetical examples, that don`t exist in reality...... to make an argument.....


Bingo!

It is kind of sick to come up with this kind of example in comparison to large-scale, discriminatory policies. In the South, Blacks had to ride in the back of the bus, drink from separate fountains, stay in different hotels, etc.

The difference is discriminating against another person or group because of an immutable trait: skin color, sexuality, et. al. v. discriminating against someone because of their behavior and beliefs -- which are chosen.

The right sees gay people, however, as exhibiting depraved behavior and exercising a demented ungodly choice about their sexuality. This sacrilege undermines family values and stands to infect our children. It precipitated 9/11 and might also trigger some sort of punitive natural disaster by God.


< Message edited by cloudboy -- 3/26/2014 9:06:31 AM >

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