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The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is an Islamic theocratic monarchy in which Sunni Islam is the official state religion. Although no law requires citizens or passport holders to be Muslim, almost all citizens are Muslims. Children born to Muslim fathers are by law deemed Muslim, and conversion from Islam to another religion is considered apostasy and punishable by death. Blasphemy against Sunni Islam is also punishable by death, but the more common penalty is a long prison sentence. There have been no confirmed reports of executions for either apostasy or blasphemy in recent years.[1]
Religious freedom is virtually non-existent. The Government does not provide legal recognition or protection for freedom of religion, and it is severely restricted in practice. As a matter of policy, the Government guarantees and protects the right to private worship for all, including non-Muslims who gather in homes for religious practice; however, this right is not always respected in practice and is not defined in law.[2] Moreover, the public practice of non-Muslim religions is prohibited.[1] The Saudi Mutaween (Arabic: مطوعين), or Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (i.e., the religious police) enforces the prohibition on the public practice of non-Muslim religions. Sharia applies to all people inside Saudi Arabia, regardless of religion.

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

The issue is how to define Israel as a geo-political unit. And it you view it from that perspective I think there are lots of people on the planet who support the notion of Israel as a democracy where there is freedom of religion but NOT a theocracy. The United States is not a Christian state. A country can have a geo-political definition independent of religion. Most modern democracies are NOT described by a religion.

In general, I am not in favor of theocracies.

Now, I will say this, many Islamic nations do operate as theocracies. Let's take this Wiki description of Saudi Arabia for starters:

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The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is an Islamic theocratic monarchy in which Sunni Islam is the official state religion. Although no law requires citizens or passport holders to be Muslim, almost all citizens are Muslims. Children born to Muslim fathers are by law deemed Muslim, and conversion from Islam to another religion is considered apostasy and punishable by death. Blasphemy against Sunni Islam is also punishable by death, but the more common penalty is a long prison sentence. There have been no confirmed reports of executions for either apostasy or blasphemy in recent years.[1]
Religious freedom is virtually non-existent. The Government does not provide legal recognition or protection for freedom of religion, and it is severely restricted in practice. As a matter of policy, the Government guarantees and protects the right to private worship for all, including non-Muslims who gather in homes for religious practice; however, this right is not always respected in practice and is not defined in law.[2] Moreover, the public practice of non-Muslim religions is prohibited.[1] The Saudi Mutaween (Arabic: مطوعين), or Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (i.e., the religious police) enforces the prohibition on the public practice of non-Muslim religions. Sharia applies to all people inside Saudi Arabia, regardless of religion.

So there is a level of hypocrisy going on here that in unwarranted.

I support the idea of Israel as a democratic state with freedom of religion. And that means that the various peoples within that geo-political unit have to find some way to negotiate peace. But let's also all be honest about the fact that Israel is surrounded by many enemies who are operational theocracies where no freedom of religion exists.

I do not support Israeli policies in the West Bank. But I also do not support Islamic theocracies as a political structure. Religion and politics have to be separate. When they are not separate we get what we have in the Middle East generally, and I don't see any group of people beyond reproach over there. [sm=2cents.gif]

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ORIGINAL: BamaD
Wow an even handed approach , are you sure you are in the right place?

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

News today is that, once again, the Arab league has refused to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.


But remember -- it's only Israel thats an impediment to world peace.

Stopping the continued ethnic cleansing should help.

So its your position that the palestinians should be able to ethnically cleanse the jews.
But if the jews prevent that from happening its not ok.

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Stopping the continued ethnic cleansing should help.

Which is why you support the side that wants to kill all the Jews???

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Stopping the continued ethnic cleansing should help.

So its your position that the palestinians should be able to ethnically cleanse the jews.

Stopping ethnic cleansing constitutes supporting it. Seriously?

K.

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Stopping the continued ethnic cleansing should help.

So its your position that the palestinians should be able to ethnically cleanse the jews.

Stopping ethnic cleansing constitutes supporting it. Seriously?

K.

Thank you Kirata.

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

News today is that, once again, the Arab league has refused to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.


But remember -- it's only Israel thats an impediment to world peace.

Stopping the continued ethnic cleansing should help.

So its your position that the palestinians should be able to ethnically cleanse the jews.
But if the jews prevent that from happening its not ok.

Dont even assume to be smart enough to know my position, not until you have learnt to read and comprehend my words.

I clearly said "Stopping the continued ethnic cleansing should help" No doubt you dont wish to admit it is taking place but thats your problem and not mine.

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

I can read your words. Where I have trouble is trying to enter your demented delusions and figure out what they hell you think is happening.

Darfur - is ethnic cleansing.
Ruanda- ethnic cleansing.
Israel building a wall... well lets just say.. one of these things is not like the other...

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Nice post as Pixies hits them for six.

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

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ORIGINAL: BamaD
Wow an even handed approach , are you sure you are in the right place?

Haha. But sadly, the separation of religion and politics is something we still struggle with in the U.S. So while my approach might be intellectually even-handed, behind it is the very real understanding that religion and the religious will never let the rest of us be. It's very easy to see how to be even-handed if you can remove religion from the political equation. But good luck with that…..[sm=2cents.gif]

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Odd because I feel that religion demands fairness without regard as to the religious beliefs or lack
there of in others.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Odd because I feel that religion demands fairness without regard as to the religious beliefs or lack
there of in others.

You might but millions of others throughout history have felt exactly the opposite way. From the crusades to 911, from the Spanish inquisition to violence against homosexuals, the intolerance of religion has victimized millions.

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ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

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ORIGINAL: BamaD
Wow an even handed approach , are you sure you are in the right place?

Haha. But sadly, the separation of religion and politics is something we still struggle with in the U.S. So while my approach might be intellectually even-handed, behind it is the very real understanding that religion and the religious will never let the rest of us be. It's very easy to see how to be even-handed if you can remove religion from the political equation. But good luck with that…..[sm=2cents.gif]

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Thank you for demonstrating that it is not only believers who are narrow minded.

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Odd because I feel that religion demands fairness without regard as to the religious beliefs or lack
there of in others.

You might but millions of others throughout history have felt exactly the opposite way. From the crusades to 911, from the Spanish inquisition to violence against homosexuals, the intolerance of religion has victimized millions.

Thank you for demonstrating that it is not only believers who are narrow minded.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Thank you for demonstrating that it is not only believers who are narrow minded.

What is narrow minded about the truth? Do you deny these things happened? I in no way insinuated that non-religious folk are not capable of intolerance but religion practically demands intolerance. If someone is worshiping god the wrong way or, worse, worshiping the wrong god (because only your god is the real one) then you have to do something about that (lest your inaction angers god). Simply put, how many agnostics were torturing people during the inquisition? How many atheists flew airplanes into the World Trade Center? Is it religious or non-religious people who seeks to deny homosexuals their equal rights?

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ORIGINAL: MalcolmNathaniel

There is no ethnic cleansing going on in Israel. That's a fallacy. I can understand PS's misunderstanding because he, living in the UK, presumably listens to the BBC. The BBC has been anti-Israel for a long time.

The fact is that "Palestine" was occupied by the UK prior to 1948. It was the English that gave Palestine* to the Jews. But Arabs like fighting. If it weren't for the Jews there they'd be fighting each other.

Jews make an especially easy target though. To quote Tom Lehrer a songwriter and mathematician:

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics,
And the Catholics hate the Protestants,
And the Hindus hate the Muslims,
And everybody hates the Jews.

You can listen to the full song here.

*This is an arbitrary section of land divided up BY the British when they colonized it.