RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs

RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (Full Version)

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truckinslave -> RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (4/8/2014 8:23:24 AM)
quote: the core issues are self determination, security and land, not religion. Wrong. Anyone who dismisses Islamic hatred of Jews is not to be taken seriously.

tweakabelle -> RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (4/8/2014 8:32:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Asserting that the conflict is primarily a religious one is to fundamentally misunderstand the conflict. It seems to me that religious and political Zionism, while cut from different cloth, are cut to the same pattern. But the religious cloth is stiffer. The position of the religious Zionists is that God Himself declared Eretz israel the inheritance of the Jews, and not a single inch of it may be sacrificed for "security". I can't say how primary they are, but I don't think they can be counted out of consideration. My impression is that they have had a less than encouraging influence on Israel's policies. It is interesting to wonder how things might have evolved without that influence. K. It is interesting to chart the drift of Zionism from the overwhelmingly secular movement that founded Israel and ruled it for most of its early history, and the recent rise of religious Zionism as a major force. One magor factor in the change has been the success of the colonist/settler project. Another has been the change in the demographics of Judaic Israel with the growth of haredi from negligible numbers at the time of Israel's foundation to their present considerable numbers and consequent political influence. It is worth noting that the kind of left-influenced idealist Zionism that dominated at the foundation of Israel provides a poor intellectual basis for the aggressive policies and wholesale human rights violations that characterise current Israeli policy. A Right wing religious-based movement, where, as you point out, rights are seen as divine providence provides a firmer intellectual basis for rationalising ethnic cleansing and Jewish supremacism. Today's Israel is a sad and ugly caricature of the ideals of its founders.

Phydeaux -> RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (4/8/2014 8:45:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle It is interesting to chart the drift of Zionism from the overwhelmingly secular movement that founded Israel... Best laugh of the day. Anything after this is the product of a truly warped mind. quote: Today's Israel is a sad and ugly caricature of the ideals of its founders. Oh, tweak? Tell me, when do you think the palestinians will adopt equal rights for women? When do you think the saudis will let women drive? Or travel unchaperoned? Or not require the habib. I commend your desire to talk about human rights abuses. Perhaps you should look at the muslim states who over the last 10 years have eliminated more than 500,000 christians. Or syria - gassing its own people? Or eqypt? Perhaps you'd remember algeria -where a man set himself on fire? Of course not. The enemy is Israel. You're such an apologist.

Moonhead -> RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (4/8/2014 8:48:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux Oh, tweak? Tell me, when do you think the palestinians will adopt equal rights for women? Around the same time that the Hassidim and other ultra-orthodox flavours of Judaism that the muslims pinched their vile attitude towards women from in the first place do, probably.

tweakabelle -> RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (4/8/2014 9:23:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle It is interesting to chart the drift of Zionism from the overwhelmingly secular movement that founded Israel... Best laugh of the day. Anything after this is the product of a truly warped mind. From wiki: "From the start of political Zionism in the 1890s, Haredi leaders voiced objection to its secular orientation and before the establishment of the State of Israel, the majority of Haredi Jews were opposed to Zionism. This was chiefly due to the concern that secular nationalism would replace the Jewish faith and the observance of religion, and the view that it was forbidden for the Jews to reconstitute Jewish rule in the Land of Israel before the arrival of the Messiah. Those rabbis who did support Jewish settlement in Palestine in the late 19th-century, had no intention of conquering Palestine from the Ottoman Turks[1] and were resolute that only observant Jews be allowed to settle there.[2] During the 1930s, some European Haredi leaders encouraged their followers not to leave for Palestine where the Zionists were gaining influence. When the dangers facing European Jewry became clear, the Orthodox Agudath Israel organisation decided to cooperate to an extent with Zionist leaders in order to allow religious Jews the possibility of seeking refuge in Palestine. Some Agudah members in Palestine preferred to form an alliance with Arab nationalists against the Zionist enterprise, but this never occurred. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredim_and_Zionism Israel was founded by largely socialist secular Zionists. Israel was ruled by the leftist Labour Party for most of its early decades. While religious Zionism has had a long established presence in politics through the Shas party, the religious Zionism we see so influential on the Israeli Right today is a relatively recent phenomenon. To contest such elementary facts of history, well known and uncontroversial to any one with a reasonable understanding of Israeli history, is to demonstrate remarkable ignorance not to mention chutzpah. Please take the trouble to study the topic before you contest such basic facts in future Phydeaux. Arguments are so much more persuasive when the author knows what they are talking about.

Phydeaux -> RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (4/8/2014 11:14:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle It is interesting to chart the drift of Zionism from the overwhelmingly secular movement that founded Israel... Please take the trouble to study the topic before you contest such basic facts in future Phydeaux. Arguments are so much more persuasive when the author knows what they are talking about. The principal non-Zionist Orthodox Jewish (or Haredi) party, Agudat Israel, recommended to UNSCOP that a Jewish state be set up after reaching a religious status quo agreement with Ben-Gurion regarding the future Jewish state. The agreement would grant exemption to a quota of yeshiva (religious seminary) students and to all orthodox women from military service, would make the Sabbath the national weekend, promised Kosher food in government institutions and would allow them to maintain a separate education system.[89] To use little words for you. The religion and ultra religious comprised roughly one third of the Israeli population. So much so that Ben-Gurion had to make political compromise with them, on numerous occassions. One of which I quoted you. The idea, therefore that Israel was found 'overwhelming' by secular jews, is in a word. Bullshit.

Politesub53 -> RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (4/8/2014 3:14:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: truckinslave quote: the core issues are self determination, security and land, not religion. Wrong. Anyone who dismisses Islamic hatred of Jews is not to be taken seriously. That seems an Islamophobic post, which doesnt deserve to be taken seriously. If you have a population of your country, in a land you call "occupied" living in impoverished conditions, then you can expect problems.

MrBukani -> RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (4/9/2014 12:37:30 AM)
You might be right, in origin Islam tells us, muslims should respect people of the book(the abrahamic book that is). And exactly there is the core problem. The same problem tweakabelle has with so called zionist jews. They are the ones discriminating people who do not follow their one God. And since almost every devout muslim accepts that the koran is the direct word of Allah, they are the ones who started discriminating. That some people are better/have more value then others. It's hard to contest the koran for a muslim. In Islam that is near impossible. I would like you to present me with evidence this is not true for the majority of muslims. You will fail miserably, wich will prove my point ever so clearly. In short it is the godfreaks who are racist bigots to their rotten core, no matter if they're jewish, christian, muslim or whatever faith that wishes to dominate others. It is not us who started that shit, they can thank themselves for the shit they're in.

Politesub53 -> RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (4/10/2014 5:55:04 AM)
So now we are sliding from Palestinians to Arabs to Muslims to Islam.... One would think if you had a valid argument it would stand up on its own merits. Are you seriously suggesting every Muslim in the world wants to see an end to Israel, if so, thats bollocks.

Yachtie -> RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (4/10/2014 6:10:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phydeaux when do you think the palestinians will adopt equal rights for women? When do you think the saudis will let women drive? Or travel unchaperoned? Or not require the habib. Doesn't this give a warm and fuzzy? It's democracy, right? What we fought for? Children under nine years old could be legally married and wives forced to comply with sexual demands under newly tabled legislation described by critics as a setback for women's rights But the legislation, known as the Jaafari law, introduces rules almost identical to those of neighbouring Iran, a Shia-dominated Islamic theocracy. It's not just Saudi, or the Palestinians.

Moonhead -> RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (4/10/2014 8:09:42 AM)
Do you think that would have happened under Hussein? It's notable that one of the first things that happened when he was deposed was that there was a massive escalation of the number of homosexuals being murdered. You'd think somebody might have learned from the clusterfuck that the CIA stirred up in Iran by ousting Mossadeq and reinstating the Shah that it's a bad idea to replace an Arab regime unless you know that what you're replacing it with is an improvement.

Yachtie -> RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (4/10/2014 8:17:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Do you think that would have happened under Hussein? Under Hussein, did it? (rhetorical)

Moonhead -> RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (4/10/2014 8:28:23 AM)
Not my point. Something dreadful happening in an Arab country where you people have replaced their government isn't a good support for the argument that Arabs can't be left to govern themselves, is it?

MrBukani -> RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (4/10/2014 10:06:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 So now we are sliding from Palestinians to Arabs to Muslims to Islam.... One would think if you had a valid argument it would stand up on its own merits. Are you seriously suggesting every Muslim in the world wants to see an end to Israel, if so, thats bollocks. 1 That slide is always made often in reverse. 2 The fact religion discriminates people not of their faith is a fact not to ignore. 3 I don't know how you got that suggestion outta my post. The fact of matter is that monotheism in general has a lot of nasty doctrines and history of racism, bigotry and discrimination. And it's happening again. So my hatred towards godfreaks grows steadily. It's a natural thing for a free man to abhore the bonds others want to impose. Again I will make my point. It is near impossible for a muslim to contest the content of the koran. That would be blasphemy. That is the core of the biggest problem. When you have to live with rules that are 1400 years to the letter. There will be problems.

Politesub53 -> RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (4/10/2014 4:00:52 PM)
And again, your point is bogus. [8\|] On the one hand you stated what the meaning in the Koran is, and on the other you state Muslims find it near impossible to disobey the Koran, the exact thing all the terrorists are doing. As for point three...... I get that from your post(s)

MrBukani -> RE: Ah, those peace loving Arabs (4/10/2014 11:24:58 PM)
Aha posts, not post. You're full of shit PS Maybe you think you're a nazihunter.[:D] You twist words to meet you're own needs for finding things that aren't there. I didn't use the word disobey either. You are for sure makin shit up now. I said show me any muslim that denies the koran is the direct word of Allah. You will not find it. Therefor you will not meet the challenge. PS actually you are doin exactly the same as bible thumpers and godfreaks do. You twist words to your own need to prove you're point. I told you I'm in for the long haul. So I will dedicate more topics to this matter you love so much. Keep in touch.

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