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RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/14/2014 12:20:25 PM   
FieryOpal


Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Doctor, you're an anthropologist-sexologist-fisheries expert. Hm-m. I once knew a professor of nutrition who wanted to write a best-selling book on holistic health and homeopathic medicine. She had no clue what she was writing about. She was not an M.D., not even a chiropractor. Those with doctorates usually indicate in which field they received theirs, unless they're trying to present as something they are not, such as with Dr. Phil.

Regardless, the issue itself is worth discussing. What the vanilla world sees as abuse is not considered BDSM abuse where mutual consent is involved. Further, you must make a distinction between BDSM activities and D/s dynamics. Until you are able to do so, your un-peer-reviewable compilation of opinions and anecdotal "evidence" will be flawed by design and from inception.

Within the general population, there is more domestic abuse taking place right this very minute than there ever is in BDSM, going by sheer numbers. Non-BDSM relationships operate outside the framework of consensuality. Yes, there is co-dependence, collusion, and denial in both kinds of relationships. Is it easier for an abusive sexual predator to find willing victims to target and manipulate by preying on those with a kinky bent? No doubt this can become the devil's playground. However, so can the local watering hole, hiking trail, and any number of venues.

What you seem to be focusing on is the very nature of a Master-Mistress/slave dynamic. It's not much different than any other intimate relationship, except that in an M/s there isn't the constant power struggle going on as there would be in an undefined or loosely defined interpersonal dynamic. Is the potential for abuse greater? It can be on a case-by-case basis. There are so many variables to consider that you will ultimately realize you are engaging in an exercise in futility and be tempted to start making sh!t up once your objective stance becomes untenable.

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RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/14/2014 12:32:49 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chwilfrydig
I received a reply from Dr. Harks, and she says this is a legitimate study, so color me wrong.

http://arcgs.uva.nl/members/affiliated-researchers/affiliated-researchers.html

The connection between the researcher and the organization appears legit. Whether there is a legit connection between the researcher and this thread OP, I have no idea.

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RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/14/2014 1:20:05 PM   
BDSMstudy


Posts: 8
Joined: 4/14/2014
Status: offline 		Dear all,

I am not here for the wrong reasons. I am an anthropologist with an interest in sexualities research, which was, like environmental science, part of my study. I was asked to work on this topic as I live in the UK and have a research interest in BDSM. You can all check my credentials, which you have done, and you can criticize my approach, but I choose this rather informal way because it is a quick scan and I was hoping to get a grasp of the most pressing issues around abuse. Perhaps this approach does not work in the UK, but I would wish for this discussion to not be about me, but about the subject I have raised. If you do not trust me or my methodology, please do not reply. If you have anything you would like to share that concerns abuse and support networks, please do so. You can also message me directly.

Sorry for the confusion I seem to have caused.
All the best,
Ingvild

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/14/2014 1:52:33 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BDSMstudy
...but I choose this rather informal way because it is a quick scan and I was hoping to get a grasp of the most pressing issues around abuse. Perhaps this approach does not work in the UK,...

And we are telling you that this 'method' of research is very much flawed and probably the worst way to go about it.

Do your research properly on FACTS, not people's opinions or heresay. That's not research.

(in reply to BDSMstudy)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/14/2014 2:53:13 PM   
orgasmdenial12


Posts: 613
Joined: 9/18/2012
Status: offline 		This sounds very interesting and I think you have made a good starting point. I have not personally been the victim of any abuse within the scene but I am happy for you to contact me with any questions you may have, or if I can be of any help in other ways.

The CM forums are known for being somewhat hostile to anyone who is new or different, so I wouldn't take any responses here to heart. There are also many other BDSM websites where you can gain information, including those with a greater UK base.

Good luck with your research :-)

(in reply to BDSMstudy)
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RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/14/2014 3:06:58 PM   
orgasmdenial12


Posts: 613
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Do your research properly on FACTS, not people's opinions or heresay. That's not research.


This is a common misunderstanding of those who don't understand, or who have never carried out, research. It may benefit you to research basic methodology, including the differences between qualitative and quantitative research, as well as the difference between generating theory and testing hypotheses. Whilst the testing of hypotheses often revolves around large scale quantitative (statistical) research involving things like multiple choice questionnaires, representative samples, etc, this would be impossible without the prior stage of generating hypotheses. Generating hypotheses is most easily done by simply discussing the issue at hand in an open-ended way with individuals or groups, who can then comment and build upon what others are saying to give an indication of common issues and thoughts about the subject.

For example, if one wanted to find out what kids thought about school meals, 10,000 questionnaires sent to every school in the country asking if kids preferred pasta or rice would be completely useless and invalid, because it assumes it already knows the answer that it is purporting to test. Kids may prefer, for example, chips. The correct way to carry out research would be to sit down with less than 50 kids from a few different schools and ask them what are their favourite meals. This will generate perhaps 20 meals which the kids like, these 20 can then be used for large scale quantitative research to find which percentage of kids preferred each meal.

I would also like to point out that, in both cases, the 'truth' involved opinion. There is nothing to say that accurate research cannot be performed on opinion. In fact, it would be highly offensive if we said that a victim's 'opinion' about their abuse was invalid. Unless we are testing, for example, the strength of a fabric or the effect of a pill on infection, then most research involves listening to and acknowledging someone's opinion. Even medical research has to take opinions and beliefs into account, as the placebo effect is frequently high enough to outpace actual measured performance.

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RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/14/2014 3:14:43 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12
The CM forums are known for being somewhat hostile to anyone who is new or different, so I wouldn't take any responses here to heart. There are also many other BDSM websites where you can gain information, including those with a greater UK base.

It's nothing to do with being new or different - it's the approach to the research that's very wrong.

And just as you said "so I wouldn't take any responses here to heart" is precisely why forums on any website (CM included) is a bad place to base your research on.
Research needs to be based on real facts, not opinion or conjecture; unless your research is actually based on opinion, which OP's research isn't.

And maybe OP hasn't realised that a large proportion of this site (and many others) are actually US based?
By all means, research proper factual information from any number of websites - that's what research is all about.
But to base your research on forums and their content (which are mainly personal opinions), puts the whole thesis on very rocky and unsound foundations unless you can prove the opinions were correct and backed up by facts.



quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12
For example, if one wanted to find out what kids thought about school meals...
Then you would be researching on opinions and would be perfectly valid.


quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12
I would also like to point out that, in both cases, the 'truth' involved opinion.
Actually, truth is based on fact, not opinion... unless you are canvassing opinions.




< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 4/14/2014 3:18:31 PM >

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RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/14/2014 3:38:54 PM   
KYsissy


Posts: 781
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BDSMstudy

By the way, with coded behaviour I mean the 'prescribed' behaviour that is characteristic for BDSM - it is what distinguishes BDSM from vanilla and includes all the written and unwritten rules that are part of the D/s dynamic, for example the dress codes, the use of safewords, negotiations on play, etc. It also includes training and discipline, punishment, etc. and this is where it becomes a grey area when we talk about abuse, because when is something punishment and when it is abuse?

In a 'healthy' BDSM relationship punishment and discipline are functional and acceptable, but to hit someone outside of that context is abuse. But what if the sub has not been able to express her/his boundaries well, or if the sub has been groomed or conditioned? How does someone new to the scene distinguish between what is normal in a D/s dynamic and what is not? Consent and safewords are key, but what with soft limits or 'pushing the boundaries a bit'?


I don't know of any codes. Written or unwritten. The only rules I have ever seen are what two consenting adults have agreed to. There is punishment and funishment. Funishment is the "you left the cap off the toothpaste again!!! Thats a spanking". Real punishment from my experience is taking away of priveleges or extra work around the house. But that's MY experience. Is there abuse? Sure. I would bet everything I own and borrow every cent I could to bet that the abuse that happens, happens at the hands of the predator types that would abuse their partners anyway. The cloak of BDSM does however buy these predators time as their real motives are masked for a while. These types typically hunt for those that are just feeling out the situation.

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RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/14/2014 4:12:18 PM   
orgasmdenial12


Posts: 613
Joined: 9/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
And just as you said "so I wouldn't take any responses here to heart" is precisely why forums on any website (CM included) is a bad place to base your research on.


She isn't basing her research on CM. She is using the forum to get a 'quick scan' from regarding 'the most pressing issues around abuse' from 'those who feel they have something to say about this topic' in order to supplement the other research that her and her team are doing around the subject.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

I would also like to point out that, in both cases, the 'truth' involved opinion.
Actually, truth is based on fact, not opinion... unless you are canvassing opinions.


Actually, there is nothing anywhere that says opinions cannot be 'fact'. It is a misunderstanding of what constitutes the truth to suggest it cannot include opinion.

As regards abuse, opinions are very important. For example, what 'counts' as abuse is an opinion. Whether behaviour is BDSM or abuse is another opinion. Whether a person feels they have been a victim of abuse is also an opinion. I had a Dom play too hard with me once and he injured the nerve in my leg. I do not count this as abuse for a number of reasons, yet another person may argue that it was abuse. However, I once had a boyfriend who called me names because I didn't want sex and I do count that as emotional abuse, although another person might simply see it as an argument. If one was solely using a legal definition of abuse, then we would all be so-called victims, since one cannot consent to assault, yet we would feel that our 'opinion' that we were not victims of abuse carried great weight. Once again - the questioning of opinions is vital if one wishes to get close to anything even approaching 'the truth'. It would be very offensive for the OP to carry out research on abuse within BDSM without ever stopping to ask us what we thought did (and did not) constitute abuse - which is exactly what the OP is doing here, and rightly so, in my opinion (an opinion backed up by a first class honours degree in research, I might like to add...)

< Message edited by orgasmdenial12 -- 4/14/2014 4:13:59 PM >

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RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 2:13:52 AM   
BDSMstudy


Posts: 8
Joined: 4/14/2014
Status: offline 		Thanks very much, Orgasmdenial 12 for your constructive reply. I will contact you through CM.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 3:06:34 AM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline 		FR

I think it's a shame this thread has been filled with so much suspicion and anger. I didn't get the impression that she was saying every BDSM relationship involves punishments or dress codes, but rather these elements do exist in many healthy BDSM relationships. And from there, valid questions are raised. Of course it muddies the waters. My own relationship, according to the risk assessment tool my organisation used with our clients, would be classified as putting me at 'medium to high risk of serious harm or death'. The duluth power and control wheel, a gold standard risk assessment/teaching tool, also flags me up as being in an abusive relationship. If my friend in a vanilla relationship told me her boyfriend had her standing naked in the corner all night because she didn't clean the kitchen on time, I'd be alarmed and worried, and yet relationships exist in which this would not be an abusive act.

I think we all kinda-sorta know abuse when we see it, as evidenced by the fact that we frequently tell people to stand up for themselves and walk away from bad situations. But many of the police, social workers and domestic abuse support workers don't have our background and our first hand experience to make those judgement calls. So perhaps some sort of research and clarification would be extremely beneficial in advising those front-line workers.

It is worth asking what support is available to practitioners of BDSM. Like it or not, it would make a difference. If I took on a client in an abusive relationship that had started as a D/s dynamic or involved BDSM play, I'd have to take that into account. I'd have to pro-actively ensure any police officers or social workers becoming involved had the relevant information. I'd have to prepare this person for the possibility that these intimate details would be raised in court and may possibly affect their odds of prosecution. I'd have to check any counseling service was kink-aware and debate whether this person would fully benefit from the typical group support sessions that DV victims are offered. And if I were called as an expert witness, I'd want to prepare by digging up some academic research to lend authority to what I already know about BDSM and domestic abuse.

I don't know this woman, this programme, or even this university. Maybe the study will be ineffective. But I think the hostility to the whole notion of a study is bizarre. No one is trying to belittle or scapegoat the BDSM community, judging by everything that has been said here. I'm in favour of anything that holds the possibility of better outcomes for DV victims. Denying any difference is short-sighted at best.

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Upon the hours and times of your desire?

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RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 3:55:18 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders
I think we all kinda-sorta know abuse when we see it, as evidenced by the fact that we frequently tell people to stand up for themselves and walk away from bad situations. But many of the police, social workers and domestic abuse support workers don't have our background and our first hand experience to make those judgement calls. So perhaps some sort of research and clarification would be extremely beneficial in advising those front-line workers.

Agreed.
The hostility isn't against the research but the methodology and base of that research.

OP states in her first post: "Purpose of the research is to get an idea of the occurrence and extent of abuse linked to BDSM activities and/or the BDSM community. The underlying question is to what extent and under what circumstances people might abuse the power differential that is inherent to BDSM.".
My contention is, and openly admitted by herself, there is no difference between BDSM and r/l.
She is putting a skewed spin on just BDSM and I don't believe that harvesting opinions from a forum is going to better her research or her outcome.

Why do we in this community sense when there is abuse??
because it is based upon the evidence presented and that certain types of behaviour are abuse regardless of BDSM or kink.
That is facts, not opinion.
Sure, we spin all sorts of opinion based on what we are told, and some of it is very different.
But on the whole, we recognise the abuse by the actions of a person, not opinions.
Opinions are "I think" and are not fact. Supporting evidence maybe, but still not fact.


quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders
It is worth asking what support is available to practitioners of BDSM. Like it or not, it would make a difference. If I took on a client in an abusive relationship that had started as a D/s dynamic or involved BDSM play, I'd have to take that into account.

Since when has informed consent gone bad need to be taken into account as a separate entity??
Generally speaking, we agree to consensual sex when we get married, but we can still be raped within a marriage!
I don't see BDSM as any kind of 'special case' in this regard.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders
I'd have to pro-actively ensure any police officers or social workers becoming involved had the relevant information. I'd have to prepare this person for the possibility that these intimate details would be raised in court and may possibly affect their odds of prosecution.

That would be the same for any sort of consensual activity that ended up on the wrong side of abuse.
As for the police and social workers, most people don't get the choice of who is assigned to the case, so that's a moot point.
Certain counselling services, you would have a choice. But for the others, you wouldn't usually.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders
I don't know this woman, this programme, or even this university. Maybe the study will be ineffective. But I think the hostility to the whole notion of a study is bizarre. No one is trying to belittle or scapegoat the BDSM community, judging by everything that has been said here. I'm in favour of anything that holds the possibility of better outcomes for DV victims. Denying any difference is short-sighted at best.

I quite agree.
But get the facts from victims in DV shelters, not opinions from a BDSM forum.

What I'm ultimately saying is, the problem is the source of her information, not the study itself.

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)
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RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 4:12:02 AM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline 		Indeed and you'll notice my first post was pointing her in the direction of a credible source. It is however not uncommon to use personal experiences as a way of adding colour to an otherwise dry study or making it more personal and relatable.

It's a special case in the same way that being gay, or having a drug problem, or immigration issues, or pregnancy, or a criminal history, or language barriers, or any one of another zillion issues are special cases. Domestic violence and abuse does not have a one-size-fits all solution; they're all special cases. To be effective, you absolutely must work out the things that make this situation different, so you can address the issues properly. No you don't get a choice which police officer you get, or which social worker. But if I know there's been a BDSM history, I can be there in the multi agency meetings making sure misconceptions aren't being passed around or assumptions being made. That was what I did for a living, advocated for the victims and helped them negotiate all the systems. We are hoping for the same outcome, and the person has the same rights. But the method may need to be different. The challenges faced may be different. If my client wants a non molestation order, and I think the perpetrator will challenge it, the odds are good that the involvement in kink will be brought up as a way to cast doubt or discredit. I need to prepare my client for that so he or she doesn't get flustered. The typical group sessions on healthy relationships are going to be hard to join in and get much from because they will be calling things red flags which might be part of a healthy D/s dynamic for my particular client. Different support. Special case.

_____________________________

Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 4:16:52 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

The hostility isn't against the research but the methodology and base of that research.


I don't get the impression that the research has got to the stage yet where the methodology and base of it are established, FD. The OP seems to me to be doing exactly the kind of investigative, exploratory stuff that is the necessary precursor to such things. This is the way I did my own research at uni. We had a person on some while ago, claiming to be a researcher, that seemed bogus to me; this researcher, on the other hand, seems kosher to me.

In my opinion the area of BDSM hints at a profoundly different way of living in the world. Or it could do, theoretically. This is because everything about the way almost every society has evolved - its laws, its economic, political and social institutions - is premised on the assumption that people want to gain more power and more freedom, not give up those things. We in the world of BDSM are, potentially at least, playing with fire in that respect. Myself, I'd want to encourage disinterested academic research into it.

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RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 4:30:48 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		I'm not sure, exactly but maybe what the writer is looking for is a contrast of perspective?

It's all well and good to go to a DV shelter and speak to people that say that their injuries are due to abuse but, I'm wondering if it's about going out into our community and getting input from people here that share those same injuries?

I could be way off base. I don't know. I think, though, that it's kind of like if I were doing a study on alcoholism, I would go to rehabs, bars, AA meetings, company picnics, family reunions. Perspective means everything.

I remember my dear, sainted grandmother begging me to go to the parish priest and talk to him about how much I drank. Fr. Conklin was an understanding fellow.

From his perspective, as long as I went to work every day and didn't miss Mass on days of obligation, I was fine.

Grandma had issue with my "work" being going to bars, getting drunk, and playing loud music. Perspective.







Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 4:42:02 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I thought I gave you some helpful info in my second reply.

Where's my thank you?

If you expect people to take time to reply to you, you need to treat them well, or you won't get far.

You should know that OrgasmDenial often takes a view counter to many as a matter of course.



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RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 4:48:34 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BDSMstudy
Yet, because of the nature of BDSM and the coded behaviour it may sometimes be hard to identify abuse, also for the person involved: punishment or pushing boundaries is part of play, but to what to extent? And the intensity of the relationship may be such, that some behaviour may be accepted, just to make the relationship continue (as your case illustrates). So that is what makes abuse in the BDSM context even harder to assess or identify.

Do you mean from an external party point of view, it's difficult to identify if it's abuse or not? Yes I agree, because, someone who enjoys pain, may have bruises that look like abuse, but she's receiving it because she finds pleasure in it. So it's like emotional abuse in a way, you can't tell if it's real, but there is no stopping people from just showing concern if they see a woman bruised up.

But if you are saying from individual judging point of view, it's always been very clear to us that, the line between abuse and bdsm is the difference between non-consensual and consensual. All BDSM activities has to be mutually consensual or else, it's abuse.

quote:

Secondly, if the abuse is so severe that the victim needs help, would he/she be able to explain to a counsellor that it was part of a BDSM dynamic? How would the 'outside' world react, or would the person have to hide all these details, simply because no one outside the BDSM community would understand? This is why I need input from this forum.
Thanks again!
Ingvild

She will have to go to a kink-friendly counsellor if one is available. But I think anybody who enters this lifestyle have to be prepared for the risks involve in the lifestyle and practice some common sense safety. It's not a mainstream lifestyle so support will be limited. That's part of being involve in this lifestyle.



(in reply to BDSMstudy)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 4:55:08 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

In a 'healthy' BDSM relationship punishment and discipline are functional and acceptable, but to hit someone outside of that context is abuse. But what if the sub has not been able to express her/his boundaries well, or if the sub has been groomed or conditioned? How does someone new to the scene distinguish between what is normal in a D/s dynamic and what is not? Consent and safewords are key, but what with soft limits or 'pushing the boundaries a bit'?

I don't think there is any grey area at all, like you are trying to make it look like there is a grey area.
Consent is key, as you said. So things like soft limits and pushing boundaries, consent is key too. A dom may *think* it's okay to push the boundaries, but it's perfectly acceptable for the sub to reject the dom's idea of what's okay. Then they talk about it, it becomes a disagreement. If he accepts that she's not ready or she does not want to go there, they continue, if he wants her to accept this, then like any vanilla relationship, if two people aren't heading the same direction, then they part ways. No limits should be transgress, or that dom is untrustworthy, just like a vanilla man who does not keep his word.

The problem is not so different from vanilla relationships, where sometimes, people put up with abusive behaviour because they feel like they cannot live without that person. That's nothing to do with BDSM, but self-esteem issues that individual has.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 4/15/2014 4:57:26 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 5:09:43 AM   
orgasmdenial12


Posts: 613
Joined: 9/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
But get the facts from victims in DV shelters, not opinions from a BDSM forum.


Actually, that would still be an opinion, it would just be an opinion from a person in a different place.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 6:32:37 AM   
cowerme


Posts: 10
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline 		The only observation I can contribute is that as far as practioners of professional BDSM are concerned reputation is everything and word gets around pretty quickly. I have known a few cases of pro-dommes who have indulged in abusive and unacceptable practices who have dropped off the radar after having ranks closed against them.

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)
Profile   Post #: 40
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