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RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 6:50:47 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12
The CM forums are known for being somewhat hostile to anyone who is new or different, so I wouldn't take any responses here to heart.


Yeah, saddly this is a place with a reputation for hazing new posters. To the best of my knowledge it's an unhealthy quirk of this particular forum as opposed to anything having to do with the bdsm community. Certainly the meat space communities I have/have had involvement with have endeavored to be welcoming.

(in reply to orgasmdenial12)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 7:11:46 AM   
SweetAnise


Posts: 480
Joined: 8/23/2013
Status: offline 		FR: I believe the main reason there was and maybe still such a suspicious response of the OP because she did not give anyone her credentials when asking for information from CM members. It is important to be mindful that when obtaining any time of quick scan or research that you must represent yourself fully to everyone this is called informed consent. Whether exploratory or not, when I did my research, and I was testing the waters, I made it very clear who I was, what I was doing, and why I was doing it. I told people they did not have to participate and I gave them information where I could be contacted. The OP did not do this and thus received a response that questioned her. No one should have had to look the OP up. You should have presented your information to us especially on a open forum. I did look you up and saw you did one study on BDSM- this would have been very important to tell all of us when asking your questions about BDSM and abuse. It is relevant and would have made you more trusting.

Anyway best of luck in your research.

< Message edited by SweetAnise -- 4/15/2014 7:13:22 AM >

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(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 7:22:45 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		I think the point has been driven into the ground that the OP approached it wrong. Could we maybe move on now and contribute information pertaining to what she asked, because relevant responses might be interesting to read, unlike the foot-stamping and rehashing. We got it.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 7:26:43 AM   
SweetAnise


Posts: 480
Joined: 8/23/2013
Status: offline 		To windchymes: Driven to the ground is one thing...making a comment is another.

_____________________________

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us."-Marianne Williamson




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RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 7:27:34 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		Sorry. I gave all the help I was able to give.

I'm not a practitioner of BDSM. Now, if we expand it to D/s ...







Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?

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(in reply to windchymes)
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RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 7:29:10 AM   
Ingvild


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/15/2014
Status: offline 		I have contacted a few contributors personally. And do thank those that contribute to the conversation in a constructive manner, so yes, thank you for that.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 7:29:54 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetAnise

To windchymes: Driven to the ground is one thing...making a comment is another.


Carrying the same sentiment, that the OP approached it wrong, over to the third page is driving it into the ground. We got it.

_____________________________

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.

Pick-up artists and garbage men should trade names.

(in reply to SweetAnise)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 7:32:13 AM   
SweetAnise


Posts: 480
Joined: 8/23/2013
Status: offline 		To windchymes: Well I presume ur upset by others and not with me as I commented once and not three pages worth. I got it. Thank you for sharing your discomfort. Best.

_____________________________

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us."-Marianne Williamson




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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 7:49:53 AM   
Ingvild


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/15/2014
Status: offline 		Thanks Greta75, this clarifies a lot. I do see that self-esteem issues are important, but in both BDSM or vanilla context. I have heard from some Doms that there are subs who have issues around self-esteem and who find it hard to set boundaries. Is that something you have encountered?

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 7:54:46 AM   
Ingvild


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/15/2014
Status: offline 		Just quickly about the fact finding: I will talk to some charities dealing with abuse. I wonder however how many of the victims who are involved in BDSM or where the abuse took place in a BDSM context, would have been open about this. In other words, I do not think that the data that these organisations have will be fully representative. That is why I wanted information from the community itself.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 7:58:41 AM   
Ingvild


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/15/2014
Status: offline 		I presume this holds too for those operating in public in the scene. One red flag concerning potential abusers is that they act in isolation and will try to isolate the sub/slave. If there is abuse, that person will hopefully find his/her way to a forum like this or professional organizations. Again, I would like to know if these cases occur and if anyone has heard of them?

(in reply to cowerme)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 8:11:28 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: orgasmdenial12

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
But get the facts from victims in DV shelters, not opinions from a BDSM forum.


Actually, that would still be an opinion, it would just be an opinion from a person in a different place.

Actually, no it isn't.
Abuse has already been established prior to those going into such shelters.
So it's not "just opinion". As I said earlier, supporting evidence, yes.

Can you not see the difference??
It's like asking the general populace about crime - it would be pure speculation and opinion.
Get answers to the same questions from people in prison would very likely be different because they have already been judged as criminals.
And there's the difference.
To me, there is no merit in canvassing opinion in research unless that is the target of the research.

Extract from Merriam Webster
1 : careful or diligent search
2 : studious inquiry or examination; especially : investigation or experimentation aimed at the discovery and interpretation of facts, revision of accepted theories or laws in the light of new facts, or practical application of such new or revised theories or laws

Asking opinion from a forum on a kink site is not the way to establish facts.
Ergo, the research is flawed and thus likely to be very skewed.

OP has already admitted there is no real difference in the stats between consensual BDSM and people outside of those dynamics. So, to garner opinion from a kink site avails her of no new factual information that would be valid.
And that's my point.
As I said, it's not the research at fault but the source of the info going into that research as it appears (from OP's first post) to be asking about abuse within BDSM when there is no difference between BDSM and other sources by her own admission.

So this research seems to be no more than collecting personal opinions from a kink site rather than extracting factual information for the research into abuse.
In other words.... just being nosey for the sake of it under the guise of "research".


(in reply to orgasmdenial12)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 8:16:15 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

I have heard from some Doms that there are subs who have issues around self-esteem and who find it hard to set boundaries. Is that something you have encountered?


I think people who generally have self-esteem issues will find it difficult to set boundaries, like recently, I was reading a confession by a woman who was dating a vanilla man who was lying to her that he was cheating on her. When she confronted him, he actually slapped her hard and told her to leave. In their whole relationship, he has been kind to her and loving towards her, and they are in a typical vanilla relationship. But she blames the other woman for seducing him and turning him against her, and she wants to stay with him and fight for his love back. She even told him she will allow him to carry on seeing the other woman if that was what made him happy.

All self-esteem issues individuals are unfortunately prone to such things. Predators who take advantage of such people are rampant everywhere. In vanilla or BDSM. But at least in BDSM, there is constant reminder to everybody that it must be consensual, it must be mutual, in a way, I think it provides clearer boundaries. People in bdsm are also likely to go online to find fellow bdsm'ers to clarify their experiences than vanilla abused women, who may even feel too embarrassed to talk about it with their friends and hate to see themselves as an abuse victim and make excuses for their abuser, whereas in bdsm, one always question when is it abuse, and people usually want to know more.

I just want to add on, what I find is. When a vanilla woman suffers physical abuse, especially if her guy has a great reputation of being such a gentle and nice guy, she may face stuffs like, what did she do to aggravate him to hit her, which will make it worst for her to seek help or open up and cause her to internally blame herself.

But in bdsm, it is I think it is universally agreed that a dom is not a real dom if he has no control of himself. After all, being a dom is about exercising control. No one would ever question what a sub did that cause the dom to act out in violence and violate her boundaries, at least with those who are kink aware, because it's frown upon if a dom loses control.



< Message edited by Greta75 -- 4/15/2014 8:24:44 AM >

(in reply to Ingvild)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 8:41:50 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		People (not just subs) having a hard time setting boundaries is one thing this forum deals with a lot. Most of these issues revolve around people who are stuck in BDSM fantasies, and don't have a good grasp of relationship reality.

It's one thing to have a great fantasy of being punished, for example, and then learn the reality is far too harsh. Or to think a sub should find a hard caning to be great foreplay, b/c it was that way in the porn they watched, only to discover the sub (like most subs) needs a warm up.

Or to think for instance that micromanaging your sub's every move is something you should do, b/c you read about it, only to find the reality is actually hard work and pretty boring over time.

There is also the issue of people trying to fit into a label, like slave or dominant, when in the beginning at least it's best to explore and see who and what you really are.

The issue of self esteem has already been broached and I think its' important to note that many dominants have self esteem issues as well, and they tend to be much better hidden.







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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 8:46:58 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:


The issue of self esteem has already been broached and I think its' important to note that many dominants have self esteem issues as well, and they tend to be much better hidden.

Yes, I fully agree! I had a dom who told me that my disobedience made him feel so angry with me because I made him feel inadequate as a dom. I guess that would be an example.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 8:54:00 AM   
AthenaSurrenders


Posts: 3582
Joined: 3/15/2012
Status: offline 		FR

Unfortunately consensual vs non-consensual isn't as simple as it sounds either. It's simple if someone says 'hey, I didn't consent to that!' but it's very difficult to know if consent has been coerced, or if the person in question wasn't capable of informed consent. There are moments of confusion when one person's idea of a firm spanking is another person's idea of a vicious, abusive beating. Much of this can be countered by good communication but there are grey areas. When it comes to people who have suffered domestic abuse, you will often hear phrases like 'I deserved it' or 'I don't really think it was abuse because...'. How do we distinguish the difference between a consensual arrangement and one where the victim is so beaten down consent has become meaningless? There will always be cases that fall close enough to that line to make it difficult to tell.

Where's JeffBC when you need him? He has some interesting views on consent.

As for abuse being established before anyone enters a refuge - what criteria do you think they use for that? I phone up and say 'I'm abused' and if they have space, they will take me. There's no criteria for acceptance except in cases where the refuge has (or lacks) a specialist service - by that I mean not every one will take a victim who needs mental health support or is a drug user. But whether or not they are abused is their opinion. There doesn't have to be a crime committed or an injury sustained or anything else like that. In addition, a very small minority of abuse victims go into shelters and refuges. Almost none will accept men, for example. People who are not entitled to housing benefit will have to pay their own way, and since fleeing often involves losing a job or other financial support, not everyone can do it. Some may have teenage boys in their care and struggle to find a refuge who can take them. Some will be ruled out by their own past issues. And refuges, wonderful as they are, are not nice places to be. Anyone who has any sort of family or friend support is likely to go to them instead. So speaking to victims in domestic violence shelters is going to be just as limited, in a different way.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 9:05:23 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

There are moments of confusion when one person's idea of a firm spanking is another person's idea of a vicious, abusive beating.

I have key words in my play to prompt the dom if it's too hard or too soft without breaking the play to cover this base, more necessarily for first few time plays until the dom gets a good feel of what you can or cannot take. That's why it's so black and white to me. But you are right it's about good communication end of the day!

(in reply to AthenaSurrenders)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 10:22:26 AM   
Ingvild


Posts: 6
Joined: 4/15/2014
Status: offline 		Thank you all again very much for your input. In preparation for this study I red two interesting articles on the issues of consent and abuse:
Barker, Meg (2013). Consent is a grey area? A comparison of understandings of consent in 50 Shades of Grey and on the BDSM blogosphere. Sexualities, 16(8) pp. 896–914.
Jozifkova, Eva (2013) Consensual Sadomasochistic Sex (BDSM): The Roots, the Risks, and the Distinctions betweeen BDSM and Violence. Current Psychiatry Reports, Vol 15 (392): 1-8.
The first is available through open access.

Having discussed these issues, I am still not clear whether abuse (in the UK) is actually taking place and what form it takes. There are various perspectives on this: Some sources say that abuse within a BDSM context is as prone as in the vanilla world. Other sources state, just as Greta75 mentions, that because of the higher level of awareness and communication on boundaries within BDSM relationships, abuse would be less. I am not looking for an exhaustive inventory or details, but has any of you encountered a situation of abuse, either personally or from someone in your circle of friends? And if so, was this physical or psychological, and a one off event or something that took place over a longer period of time?

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 10:30:58 AM   
FieryOpal


Posts: 2821
Joined: 12/8/2013
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I'm not a practitioner of BDSM. Now, if we expand it to D/s ...


This is why I see the good doctor's study as flawed from inception. D/s is separate from BDSM. BDSM is separate from D/s. There is usually overlap, but not with everybody.
I am one of those who is in the D/s camp, although I do practice BDSM to a minimal extent. I am not a sado-masochist, so the "SM" portion doesn't apply in my case.
I deliberately did not want to get into a debate on this subject. It is hard for me to suspend judgment when it comes to the issue of abuse, and it takes a real effort because I can't relate to how anybody can be into sado-masochism. In all honesty, I cannot see why any female would choose to be submissive or want to be dominated, or not be suspicious that every male Dominant isn't actually a potential wife-beater. Therefore, I don't feel I can be entirely objective, try as I might. There is no way for me to express my true opinions without offending a large segment of the BDSM community, so I refrain as much as possible from going there.

Deepak Chopra has written (but didn't coin this phrase) that a human being is a being, not a human doing.
BDSM is a doing. These are kink and/or fetish-related activities.
D/s-Dominance/submission is a state of being. It is a dynamic most often associated with a power exchange between the Dominant and the submissive who have consented to this dynamic.
They are NOT one and the same.
Participating in BDSM may show outward signs of what others might consider to be signs of abuse per physical injuries or trace evidence.
D/s does not exhibit such physical evidence, in itself. It operates on a psychological-mental-emotional level.
Abuse in the name of D/s can be more insidious than any physical act and inflict greater, immeasurable damage.
D/s can be prevalent in purely vanilla relationships and marriages.
Abuse can be perpetrated by anyone, and domestic abuse can rear its ugly head anywhere. Being kinky has little to do with this pathology.

_____________________________

Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage. - Lao Tzu
There is no remedy for love but to love more. - Thoreau

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Your input please: study on abuse within BDSM - 4/15/2014 10:43:22 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ingvild
has any of you encountered a situation of abuse, either personally or from someone in your circle of friends? And if so, was this physical or psychological, and a one off event or something that took place over a longer period of time?


I think in CM forums alone we occasionally get subs writing about being punished for expressing her distress on something that is going on. But whether they leave or not, is really back to the self-esteem issue and how much they have isolated themselves away from friends and family. It's exactly the same for vanilla though. The vanilla case I mentioned, the reason why she felt so attached to her guy was because she has no family support and can't go home, and she's introverted and doesn't really have friends. So she feels she has nobody but him. In that situation, vanilla or bdsm, surely will take a long time to leave their abuser.

But interestingly, in my own personal circle, I know vanilla women who tolerate physical abuse for until their kids are grown up, then they finally leave. Somehow, they stayed because they believe their husband's is alot more financially powerful to win court cases and take their children away from them. Which their husband threatens them with their kids.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 4/15/2014 10:45:49 AM >

(in reply to Ingvild)
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