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RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/23/2014 7:32:00 AM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Your incisive post prompts the question:

When does a religious/moral institution cease to be a religious/moral institution through moral depravity?

Again, interestingly enough, I support the First Amendment as an individual right in the U.S. But I do feel that some religious institutions misinterpret this freedom as carte blanche to act outside of and above the law of men. It is one thing when Catholic priests in Latin America resist against oppressive governments to help the poor. Sometimes it makes moral sense to resist the law of men. However, it is quite another when the church hierarchy acts to ignore man made laws that are designed to protect children. From everything I've read in the New Testament, Jesus certainly cannot be on board with the idea of a bunch of old men essentially voting to keep children in harm's way. I'm not sure, as a society, that we should have to tolerate this kind of blatant misuse of power against the weak and helpless. And if all of us turn the other way, are we not just as culpable. Certainly, after all the publicity these scandals have received, none of us can use the excuse of "oh, we didn't know" any more….

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(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 101

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/24/2014 5:12:43 PM

Phydeaux

Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

Your sources are bullshit, basically.

If anything, I think this thread has exposed Phydeaux more than any other that I've read. What are we to make of someone so willfully spreading misinformation? My take away is that the cause and one's beliefs are more important than the facts.

Score: Muslim pedophiles millions
Catholic pedofiles thousands.

Sure, this is a thread about pedophilia.

Score: homosexuals 2-3% of the population and responsible for 16% of pedofiles cases.

Sure this is a thread about pedophilia.

But when you get under the moral outrage
What this really is is a bigoted smear against an organization
Got steel et all doesn't like.

And NJ you saying research is discredited doesn't make it so.
Do you dispute that homosexuals pedophiles have offend on average me than 10x more vivtims on average more if you do limit to male homosexuals?

No answer to pedophile ads in gay mags?

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 102

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/24/2014 5:38:41 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Phydeaux)

Post #: 103

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/25/2014 11:02:24 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline

This thread is a stereotypical painting of one religion and no good comes from it. Its a pattern of actually religion bashing period.
Is there a problem somewhere with some misdirected loyalty, I would say a BIG YES to that.
The catholic faith is huge, just as the protestant faith is huge. I am sure we have our share of molesters too. Just as other communities do.
I know quite a few people of the catholic faith and they help outside their own, in fact mainly outside their own, doing charity work in all different ways. Preaching hate about a certain religion creates a lot of static, and diminishes the good they do. The Catholic people I know are really good people. I am honored to know them, and they give a lot of themselves.
But turning sister against sister, and brother against brother, is not productive.
Its a problem that is not isolated to one group, and as a whole we all hold responsibility to report misconduct.

(in reply to njlauren)

Post #: 104

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/25/2014 11:39:26 AM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
The Catholic people I know are really good people.

I know Catholics that are good people too. Growing up between Boston and Manchester two cities who's names you might remember from their horrible pedophile scandals I've seen the effects on those good people. Effects which included suicide and weren't just caused by the abuse itself but also by the organizations attempts to shame and threaten into secrecy.

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 105

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/25/2014 11:50:19 AM

chatterbox24

Posts: 2182
Joined: 1/22/2012
Status: offline

I really don't know the whole history because I am not catholic. I was not aware of that and I am very sorry to hear of such things. A terrible place for followers to be subject to. I wish they would have had the strength to become leaders then instead of the demise. Sometimes easier said then done. I can understand how a deep resentment could develop.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24
The Catholic people I know are really good people.

I know Catholics that are good people too. Growing up between Boston and Manchester two cities who's names you might remember from their horrible pedophile scandals I've seen the effects on those good people. Effects which included suicide and weren't just caused by the abuse itself but also by the organizations attempts to shame and threaten into secrecy.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 106

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/25/2014 1:12:39 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
Score: homosexuals 2-3% of the population and responsible for 16% of pedofiles cases.

Spreading debunked lies again. When will you stop?

(in reply to Phydeaux)

Post #: 107

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/25/2014 5:31:34 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Troll hardly covers it........ racist homophobe liar comes closer.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 108

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/25/2014 6:02:10 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

FR

In the National Catholic Reporter, a priest and canon lawyer who served at the Vatican Embassy in Washington offers an interesting perspective on John Paul II--slated for canonization this weekend.

Records show that John Paul II could have intervened in abuse crisis - but didn't

On Sunday, the institutional church will accord its highest honor to the one man who, more than any other alive, could have ended the nightmare and saved countless innocent and vulnerable victims. But he did not. It was not a question of he could not, but he would not.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 109

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/25/2014 6:22:48 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

In the National Catholic Reporter, a priest and canon lawyer who served at the Vatican Embassy in Washington offers an interesting perspective on John Paul II--slated for canonization this weekend.

Records show that John Paul II could have intervened in abuse crisis - but didn't

On Sunday, the institutional church will accord its highest honor to the one man who, more than any other alive, could have ended the nightmare and saved countless innocent and vulnerable victims. But he did not. It was not a question of he could not, but he would not.

One day the Catholic church will look back on the rush to canonize JPII as a huge mistake. I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't eventually removed as a saint. His actions in office were far from saintly.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 110

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/25/2014 6:52:29 PM

Phydeaux

Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
Status: offline

I find the anti Catholic bias here appauling.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 111

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/25/2014 7:31:19 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
I find the anti Catholic bias here appauling.

Sorry, I would respond to that but there's a consensus that we shouldn't feed you.

(in reply to Phydeaux)

Post #: 112

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 12:36:23 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

This thread is a stereotypical painting of one religion and no good comes from it. Its a pattern of actually religion bashing period.
Is there a problem somewhere with some misdirected loyalty, I would say a BIG YES to that.
The catholic faith is huge, just as the protestant faith is huge. I am sure we have our share of molesters too. Just as other communities do.
I know quite a few people of the catholic faith and they help outside their own, in fact mainly outside their own, doing charity work in all different ways. Preaching hate about a certain religion creates a lot of static, and diminishes the good they do. The Catholic people I know are really good people. I am honored to know them, and they give a lot of themselves.
But turning sister against sister, and brother against brother, is not productive.
Its a problem that is not isolated to one group, and as a whole we all hold responsibility to report misconduct.

Sorry but it seems to me that most people posting here are not engaged in religion bashing or singling out any religion. We are not engaged in a discussion about religion at all. We are discussing the behaviour and record of a religious institution with respect to the sexual abuse of minors, which is a very different thing.

The criticisms being levelled at the Catholic Church have nothing to do with that Church's beliefs, dogma or spiritual message. They are solely concerned with the sexual abuse of children by the clergy of that institution, the institutional reaction to the sexual abuse of children by the clergy of that institution and the cover up effected by the hierarchy of that institution.

These criticisms would be equally valid against any other institution that behaved similarly to the Catholic Church. To interpret these criticisms as religion bashing is to miss the point entirely.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/26/2014 12:41:56 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to chatterbox24)

Post #: 113

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 2:59:40 AM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The criticisms being levelled at the Catholic Church have nothing to do with that Church's beliefs, dogma or spiritual message.

I disagree. The Church is not an organization like any other. It is not a Protestant denomination nor is it Pepsi. The Church is special and it is Holy. This belief is central to our faith.

In my life I have been abused by women. There is one woman in particular who was very abusive. I have some experience. I know the way I handled it was pleasing to God. I was kind. I wait still to receive an apology that will never come. This forum is filled with the unrighteous and ungodly. If you are a Christian you know nothing of the Christian message.

The Catholic Church is a true believer in Christ and you need to believe this even if the Church burns you at the stake because you are called to believe. The message taught by Christ is a hard one.

Evil is difficult to combat. It is close to impossible to make a difference. You combat evil through goodness, yet where is your goodness? You expect the Church to be good for you? Though unpleasant, it does not work this way. You can benefit vicariously through the goodness of others only so much.

Our Lord Jesus Christ was crucified for a reason. Satan begged Jesus to be soft. Jesus did not give the people what they wanted. He instead gave them what they needed. It was not soft. In the NAME OF CHRIST we are called to be as hard as nails. In a Catholic Church what is displayed prominently is a crucifix, not a cross. We do not believe as the Protestants do that it is ok to be presumptuous.

The Church is special and Holy. If you do not know this, you are not a Catholic.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 114

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 3:10:54 AM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

These criticisms would be equally valid against any other institution that behaved similarly to the Catholic Church. To interpret these criticisms as religion bashing is to miss the point entirely.

This is not factually correct in both theological sense as well as in worldly sense. Prosaic logic does not apply here. From a theological point of view the Truth is as I have pointed out has unusual properties. From a worldly point of view the Roman Catholic Church is a nation state. You cannot say this of the Mormon church, but you can this of the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Church will not extradite people for the same reason that the Swedish government might not.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 115

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 3:56:38 AM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

The Catholic Church will not extradite people for the same reason that the Swedish government might not.

It is implicit that the Roman Catholic Church regards how many governments around the world treat pedophiles is in a manner which is inconsistent with human rights and in a manner that is at significant variance with respect to the Law of God. The Church, however, practices modesty which is a Christian virtue. The Church tries to accommodate the various governments around the world to the extent practicable, but it draws the line when it comes to its clergy.

The Church is exceedingly uncompromising. Hence, it is exceedingly stubborn. Its mission is to obey God, not you. The Church does not exist to please you nor to be pleasing to your mortal sensibilities. It is there to serve God.

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Post #: 116

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 4:27:29 AM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline

Why did I bother posting the above three posts? I logged into collarme in order to say I love you to a female friend of mine. I don't believe she has ever posted here. I didn't use the words I love you. I hope the words were implicit though. She was kind to me. I wanted to repay her for her kindness. Then I saw that chatterbox24 posted something here. I wanted to see what she wrote. What tweakabelle wrote in reply to chatterbox24 filled me with a righteous anger and I sought to defend the Church as one would a lover. I was filled with the love of Church and felt the need to say something.

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Post #: 117

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 4:31:31 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

The Catholic Church will not extradite people for the same reason that the Swedish government might not.

It is implicit that the Roman Catholic Church regards how many governments around the world treat pedophiles is in a manner which is inconsistent with human rights and in a manner that is at significant variance with respect to the Law of God. The Church, however, practices modesty which is a Christian virtue. The Church tries to accommodate the various governments around the world to the extent practicable, but it draws the line when it comes to its clergy.

The Church is exceedingly uncompromising. Hence, it is exceedingly stubborn. Its mission is to obey God, not you. The Church does not exist to please you nor to be pleasing to your mortal sensibilities. It is there to serve God.

Nonsense of the highest order.

A priest in the US is not a citizen of the Vatican. He does not have a Vatican passport. He does not have diplomatic immunity. In most cases he is a citizen of the USA. He is subject to all the same laws as everyone else in our society and that includes not raping children. That a religious organization you belong to and clearly feel passionately about did this should be cause for outrage and demands for reform not for the nonsense you just spewed.

(in reply to BenevolentM)

Post #: 118

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 4:44:52 AM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

Its mission is to obey God, not you. The Church does not exist to please you nor to be pleasing to your mortal sensibilities. It is there to serve God.

Unfortunately, as so often in the past, too many of the Catholic Church's own members have been rather too keen on pleasing their own mortal sensibilities for that to fly. I'm sorry, but the appeal to the Catholic Church's Truth with a capital 'T', to its special access to this, and to the authority and immunity from prosaic logic that derives from it, no longer cuts the mustard like it used to, BM.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 4/26/2014 4:45:23 AM >

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(in reply to BenevolentM)

Post #: 119

RE: Catholic church STILL aiding and abetting phedophiles - 4/26/2014 5:05:09 AM

BenevolentM

Posts: 3394
Joined: 11/15/2006
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Between you and the Pope I side with the Pope since the Pope has a great deal more spiritual authority and has a great deal more knowledge concerning what is unlawful or lawful with respect to the Law of God.

The logic of many here is of the self serving kind. The Church is not a coward for sticking to its guns.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

Its mission is to obey God, not you. The Church does not exist to please you nor to be pleasing to your mortal sensibilities. It is there to serve God.

Unfortunately, as so often in the past, too many of the Catholic Church's own members have been rather too keen on pleasing their own mortal sensibilities for that to fly. I'm sorry, but the appeal to the Catholic Church's Truth with a capital 'T', to its special access to this, and to the authority and immunity from prosaic logic that derives from it, no longer cuts the mustard like it used to, BM.

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 120

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