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RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/3/2014 2:11:05 AM

SadistDave

Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
...then what value is a human life?

People who are sentenced to death aren't convicted of things like jaywalking or shoplifting. They are people who have been convicted of the worst possible violent crimes against other people. In America that means that the offender has ended the life of another human being or (in some states) raped a child. Commit those crimes and society deems your life to have no value. Period.

In the case of the subhuman piece of shit whose execution was botched in Oklahoma, that crime was murdering a 19 year old named Stephanie Neiman. Just so we're clear about this whole death penalty thing and the value of life, I really think you should know how Stephanie died.

quote:

On June 3, 1999, Stephanie was driving a friend home in her Chevy pickup and had the misfortune of arriving when three men were there, supposedly attempting to beat a debt out of Bobby Bornt, 23, who lived there with his 9-month-old son.

One man hit Stephanie’s friend with a shotgun and forced her to call Stephanie inside. The men then raped the friend and beat Stephanie, when she refused to give up her truck keys. They bound her with duct tape and drove her to a country road.

Still, she refused to say she wouldn’t call the police on them, so they forced her to her knees and made her watch one gunman dig a grave. When one man shot her, his gun jammed, while Stephanie screamed. The man cleared his weapon and shot her again. Even though she was still breathing, the man ordered his accomplices to bury her, which they did.

It’s not clear whether it took 43 minutes more for her to die, and we can’t ask her now if she suffered.

I'm really not apologetic at all when I say that the life of someone commits these types of crimes has absolutely no value to me whatsoever.

-SD-

_____________________________

To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 81

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/3/2014 2:38:28 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

it ought to be a simple matter to put those behind bars to some kind of useful employment to earn their keep and repay their debt to society.

So essentially slave labor then, work or starve. Well that's an enlightened and progressive idea. But, of course, it would take a lot of jobs off the market. I rather think that once an individual's criminality reaches a certain level, we should revoke their citizenship and deport them instead.

I'm quite sure we could find countries willing to accept them in return for enhancements to the right bank accounts. Then we could relocate the unneeded prison guards to our Mexican border, transfer their employment to ICE, and improve our security while saving a bundle in the bargain.

K.

I'm not suggesting slave labour at all. There's no reason why they can't get reasonable pay levels. They will even pick some transferable employment skills in the bargain.

I do think your idea of exporting the worst of your criminals is a non-starter. Other countries will demonstrate the same affection for this idea that the US public showed when Castro sent you his thugs. Besides, your criminals are a product of US society, as all criminals are products of the society that bred them - so all societies need to accept responsibility for their criminals.

At the moment the US has millions in its incarceration system and they learn nothing other than more criminal skills - precisely what they don't need and we don't want them to acquire. The current methods don't seem to be working very well. It costs the US taxpayer billions and billions, with no discernible effect on crime rates.

So there is a need for some fresh thinking in this area. Rehashing old approaches that failed in the past will simply produce more failures in the future. It would be far more productive to look around the world, see which policies are working and adapt them to US conditions.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/3/2014 2:39:07 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 82

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/3/2014 5:23:58 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Do you volunteer your most loved to be the next one? If not why not?

To date, none of my loved ones are such fucked up individuals that they would commit a crime that carries the death sentence OR to be in a position where they might be mistaken as being guilty of crimes they did not commit. I don't forsee it being a problem in the future. Why? Because my family isn't full of punks.

Obviously you've considered the question yourself, so maybe you should consider how fucked up your family is instead.

Just wanted to establish the extent of your bigotry.

I don't think that word means what you think it means... not that that's surprising coming from you.

Stating that I'm fine with someone who has been convicted and sentenced to death actually being put to death has nothing to do with bigotry. This idiotic belief that someone should be considered innocent AFTER being convicted is probably the mark of some sort of mild mental retardation. That's the only thing that would explain your inability to grasp the distinction.

No. You're definitely a bigot. You think you're better than the people that get convicted of crimes. You think that can never happen to you therefore you are fine with any sort of barbarity being inflicted on "those" people.

(in reply to SadistDave)

Post #: 83

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/3/2014 12:43:45 PM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
The guy who got the karmic enhancement on his execution

that may be how you feel about it but I wouldnt want to be those in the execution room that had to watch him take 43 minutes to die, no matter how they felt about him personally.. I think it would have been horrific to watch it all for 43 minutes! (even tho they kept trying to kill him with an injection in the groin, etc).. That has to leave a huge scar on those involved..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 84

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/3/2014 12:59:38 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
...then what value is a human life?

People who are sentenced to death aren't convicted of things like jaywalking or shoplifting. They are people who have been convicted of the worst possible violent crimes against other people. In America that means that the offender has ended the life of another human being or (in some states) raped a child. Commit those crimes and society deems your life to have no value. Period.

Actually society is saying that that persons life is worth the life/lives that they took. But that is not the question here.
The question is the @5% of those convicted are not guilty.
You say that anyone stupid enough to be wrongly convicted deserves to die for being stupid. By that logic why don't we just euthanize all the low iq people??? Where exactly should we set the cutoff iq? What is your iq?

(in reply to SadistDave)

Post #: 85

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/3/2014 1:06:12 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Now stop dodging the question, how many innocent people must be executed before you will change your mind on the death penalty?

But I have answered your little "gotcha" question that you pulled from a talking points email, Ken.

Actually no you have not. All you have done is dance like someone needing to take a pee at the end of a long line for the shithouse.

Some crimes demand the ultimate penalty. It isn't about deterrence, even if it is a rock solid way to prevent repeat offences. It isn't about vengeance. It is justice,

No, it is revenge. Only a moron would call that justice.

It's a little too real for your coddled worldview. Too fucking bad.

Coddled world view this from the man who carries a .357 to deal with rattlesnakes.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 86

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/3/2014 1:11:11 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Dead people don't commit crimes. That fact alone is pretty compelling evidence that the death penalty does, in fact, deter crime.

Incarceration would achieve the same effect at a lower cost...another one of those tax and spenders

Rope is slightly more expensive, but it can be re-used.

Actually it cannot. The length of the rope is specific to the mass of the individual being hanged. Once tightened the noose must be cut off of the corpse. What is left is too short except for midgets,dwarfs and little girls.

Perhaps you might avail yourself of google and acquire a little knowledge re: costs of executions in the u.s. perhaps then your post would not appear so ignorant.

(in reply to SadistDave)

Post #: 87

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/3/2014 1:14:20 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The fact that some people need to be removed from society, preferably in way that doesn't make them a burden to it.

Mister Jones, we've caught the man who raped and murdered your wife and daughter, and he has been tried and found guilty. The punishment handed down is for him to spend the rest of his life behind bars, and for you to pay the cost of his food, shelter, and medical needs for the rest of his life. Thank you very much for reporting this crime to us, and have a nice day.

K.

If it is any consolation to mr. jones he will not be bearing the entire costs as the rest of the country contributes also.
On the upside mr jones does not need to worry about this punk comming to dinner.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 88

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/3/2014 1:15:52 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

Stating that I'm fine with someone who has been convicted and sentenced to death actually being put to death has nothing to do with bigotry. This idiotic belief that someone should be considered innocent AFTER being convicted is probably the mark of some sort of mild mental retardation. That's the only thing that would explain your inability to grasp the distinction.

-SD-

That is not the issue. The issue is the @5% that are not guilty.

(in reply to SadistDave)

Post #: 89

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/3/2014 1:20:58 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

ORIGINAL: Kirata

So essentially slave labor then, work or starve. Well that's an enlightened and progressive idea. But, of course, it would take a lot of jobs off the market.

There are all sorts of prison work programs...(slave labor wages).

I rather think that once an individual's criminality reaches a certain level, we should revoke their citizenship and deport them instead.

Not sure we could find a buyer but this evades the greater question. About 70% of the people in he joint in the u.s. are in for drug related crimes. Set them free,stop arresting people for doing drugs. Then there would be 70% more prison space,70% more judges,cops and prosecutors for real criminals.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 5/3/2014 1:22:48 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 90

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/4/2014 7:53:26 PM

SadistDave

Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

Stating that I'm fine with someone who has been convicted and sentenced to death actually being put to death has nothing to do with bigotry. This idiotic belief that someone should be considered innocent AFTER being convicted is probably the mark of some sort of mild mental retardation. That's the only thing that would explain your inability to grasp the distinction.

-SD-

That is not the issue. The issue is the @5% that are not guilty.

Let me put that "5%" into perspective for you.

Between 1927 and 2003 there were 37 people executed in America by the federal government. 5% of 37 is 1.85. So in all those years, no more than 2 people were wrongly put to death by the federal government.

Since 1976 there have been 1378 total executions in the U.S. , so 5% of that is 68.9. Let's call that 69 just for simplicity Divided by that 38 year span of time you end up with 1.8. That means that no more than 2 people are wrongly executed annually.

So no matter how we look at this, you're whining about 2 people a year who MIGHT be wrongly put to death by the government after being convicted of a capital crime. That's 20 less wrongful executions than the number of people killed annually by dairy cows in America. It's only 1 more than the number of Americans killed annually by sharks.

I officially don't give a fuck about 2 people a year.

-SD-

_____________________________

To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 91

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/4/2014 8:35:24 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
The guy who got the karmic enhancement on his execution

that may be how you feel about it but I wouldnt want to be those in the execution room that had to watch him take 43 minutes to die, no matter how they felt about him personally.. I think it would have been horrific to watch it all for 43 minutes! (even tho they kept trying to kill him with an injection in the groin, etc).. That has to leave a huge scar on those involved..

And how might those witnesses have felt if they had been watching the guy on the gurney and his buddies shoot a teenage girl, and bury her while she was still alive?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 92

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/4/2014 9:17:49 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Not sure we could find a buyer but this evades the greater question. About 70% of the people in he joint in the u.s. are in for drug related crimes. Set them free,stop arresting people for doing drugs. Then there would be 70% more prison space,70% more judges,cops and prosecutors for real criminals.

Well, it isn't "evading" it. The topic is capital punishment. The war on drugs is a separate issue entirely. But that quibble aside, I agree with your sentiments.

K.

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 93

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/5/2014 3:55:39 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Not sure we could find a buyer but this evades the greater question. About 70% of the people in he joint in the u.s. are in for drug related crimes. Set them free,stop arresting people for doing drugs. Then there would be 70% more prison space,70% more judges,cops and prosecutors for real criminals.

Well, it isn't "evading" it. The topic is capital punishment. The war on drugs is a separate issue entirely. But that quibble aside, I agree with your sentiments.

K.

There is a connection between the drugs trade and capital punishment. But it's not to be found inside the USA.

Many SE Asian countries - Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Vietnam, Indonesia prominent among them - have regularly executed people caught trafficking in drugs (usually heroin or marijuana). Today the drug trade in that part of the world is bigger, more sophisticated and lucrative than ever. The internal drug problem of each of those countries is also larger than ever. This situation has been achieved despite the execution of hundreds of people over the decades.

There are other countries that operate similar policies with similar results eg Iran. Again, despite the existence and use of capital punishment for drug trafficking offences, the Iranian drug trade is flourishing while Iran's internal drug problem is larger than ever. It seems that when the rewards are lucrative enough, there will always be people prepared to take the risk.

If there is more graphic and conclusive evidence that capital punishment has no value as a deterrent, I am unaware of it.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/5/2014 4:18:11 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 94

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/5/2014 4:10:15 AM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

First, how, exactly can you say this was botched? The guy is dead. So he suffered, what about his victim, I am sure they did not die peacefully.

Cruel and Unusual be damned, these animals who take human life in some of the most cruel ways imaginable should not be sent peacefully to the hereafter.

Look at the Petit case, two criminals beat the husband and left him for dead, raped the mother and two daughters, strangled the mother, and set the two girls on fire, who died from smoke inhalation.

Burning those two alive seems like it is justified to me.

Hell add child molesters and rapists to the death row club.

However, if you want to make sure innocent people are not executed, use capital punishment only in cases where there is DNA to prove they did it, or they were arrested leaving the scene of the crime, or their finger prints were on the murder weapon, and they had the damn weapon in their possession when arrested.

But dont give me this bullshit that the death penalty is cruel and unusual or barbaric. Read the details of the how these men and women killed people. They deserve to die, and die screaming in most cases.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 95

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/5/2014 6:38:28 AM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

I officially don't give a fuck about 2 people a year.

That would be two people per year, plus their friends, their families, the police who were instrumental in prosecuting them, the lawyers involved, the judges, those who took part in his execution. And all those who suffer as a result of the ill-feeling that a wrongful punishment incurs in all the aforementioned. (I've got other things to do today, so I haven't got time to make that second list.) And then there are all the people harmed by those who are still free to do harm because the wrong people were taken out in the first place. Just saying.

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Post #: 96

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/5/2014 6:48:55 AM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
But dont give me this bullshit that the death penalty is cruel and unusual or barbaric. Read the details of the how these men and women killed people. They deserve to die, and die screaming in most cases.

Jesus, JLF, the point's surely been made enough times: one cruel and barbaric act taken in retribution for another cruel and barbaric act doesn't cancel out the cruelty and barbarity of the latter. I can understand your fury and eagerness for retribution. I have no doubt that I'd have similar feelings if I were a friend or family-member of one the victims of such people. But it still doesn't make it morally right, does it?

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Post #: 97

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/5/2014 11:45:40 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

I officially don't give a fuck about 2 people a year.

Kewel should we put you down for body bag
#1 and your first born for #2 ???

(in reply to SadistDave)

Post #: 98

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/5/2014 11:49:09 AM

jlf1961

Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
But dont give me this bullshit that the death penalty is cruel and unusual or barbaric. Read the details of the how these men and women killed people. They deserve to die, and die screaming in most cases.

Jesus, JLF, the point's surely been made enough times: one cruel and barbaric act taken in retribution for another cruel and barbaric act doesn't cancel out the cruelty and barbarity of the latter. I can understand your fury and eagerness for retribution. I have no doubt that I'd have similar feelings if I were a friend or family-member of one the victims of such people. But it still doesn't make it morally right, does it?

Well considering the killers have thrown morals out the window when they murdered someone, why should they get better treatment than their victims?

I am getting really sick and tired about hearing about the rights of criminals, what about the rights of the victims? victims' families?

It is getting to the point where the criminal's rights matter more than the victims. A federal judge orders thousands of California inmates transferred to other prisons because they are being exposed to valley fever, who the fuck cares?

We give free meals to inmates and then try to cut the free breakfast program to students, makes a lot of sense. Inmates get better health care than most Americans, living conditions are even better than some Americans.

Hell some prisons might as well be resorts, with the amenities they have.

I am all in favor of bringing back chain gangs, road gangs, breaking rocks, put these bastards to work doing something productive.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 99

RE: Imported: Oklahoma execution botched - 5/5/2014 11:52:07 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Not sure we could find a buyer but this evades the greater question. About 70% of the people in he joint in the u.s. are in for drug related crimes. Set them free,stop arresting people for doing drugs. Then there would be 70% more prison space,70% more judges,cops and prosecutors for real criminals.

Well, it isn't "evading" it. The topic is capital punishment.

My point was that it would solve the overcrowding problem.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 100

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