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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

It's the same rule book for everyone, because it's the same game.

The devastating effects of crushing poverty, racism, social marginalisation and exclusion on individual and communal achievement are well documented. To pretend that the game is the same for everyone is to deny the mountains of research that record the negative effects of these forces on individuals and entire communities.

It would be wonderful if the game was the same for everyone. It would be wonderful if there really was a level playing field. The sad reality is that there isn't. Anywhere.

You get the same sun, and the same sunset.

Everything else is what you make of it.

So. it's all in the mind ...? Your mind perhaps.

But not in the minds of those who acquaint themselves with the relevant research and facts. ........ of which there exists a mountain of research findings that early childhood circumstances have a decisive effect on adult outcomes. If those circumstances are negative, the likeliehood is that the adult outcome will not be superlative. Hardly rocket science is it?.

It's not a level playing field, never has been and most probably never will be. Hiding behind such specious platitudes offers a way of denying the reality of racism, its causes and its insidious effects, replacing them with smug and complacent victim blaming.

If you think you can or think you can't....you're right.

Tweakabelle, there is no amount of conversation possible to prove to someone who wants to believe they'll fail that they can in fact succeed.

So, of course....you're right.

And, despite the inaccuracies in your post, there lies the difference between us - you are dealing in beliefs and I am dealing in facts. That difference is not reducible to simplistic notions of 'fail/succeed'.

The difference is between someone who is describing the reality for millions supported by a mountain of research and experience and someone who is desperately avoiding reality by insisting that their unsupported belief is a universal fact. It's a bit like arguing against religion with a fundamentalist/true believer. Reality is irrelevant to the true believer/fundamentalist. Their belief in the correctness of their own position trumps all the evidence to the contrary - at least it does in their own minds.

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

If you think you can or think you can't....you're right.

Tweakabelle, there is no amount of conversation possible to prove to someone who wants to believe they'll fail that they can in fact succeed.

So, of course....you're right.

I can see that you're a big believer in Norman Vincent Peale. Or maybe Napoleon Hill's Think and Grow Rich?

Trouble is, you're advancing a circular argument. It's rather convenient to say that it's all a matter of positive thinking, so if someone doesn't succeed, it's always their own fault, since they must not have been "positive" enough. The same notion would imply that a baseball player should be able to hit a home run at every at-bat, but if he doesn't, it must all be in his mind, right?

But if it's all the power of the mind, as you say, then that power works in different ways, particularly when it's being formed and molded early in life. A parent and other influential authority figures in a child's life can help mold and form the child's mind, either in the positive or the negative. (That's part of the reason why "everyone gets a trophy" at school events, much to the criticism of conservatives, but the reasoning behind it is to balance out all the negative imagery and suggestions that fill up a child's mind and makes them believe they will fail.)

So, by the time a child reaches age 16 or 17, with 95% of their upbringing being a constant refrain of "you will fail, you will fail, you will fail," then that's what they will believe, because that's what they've been taught, and failure is what they've been living around all their lives. A few Norman Vincent Peale lectures won't be enough to reverse that. Your position is not realistic.

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

If you think you can or think you can't....you're right.

Tweakabelle, there is no amount of conversation possible to prove to someone who wants to believe they'll fail that they can in fact succeed.

So, of course....you're right.

I can see that you're a big believer in Norman Vincent Peale. Or maybe Napoleon Hill's Think and Grow Rich?

Trouble is, you're advancing a circular argument. It's rather convenient to say that it's all a matter of positive thinking, so if someone doesn't succeed, it's always their own fault, since they must not have been "positive" enough. The same notion would imply that a baseball player should be able to hit a home run at every at-bat, but if he doesn't, it must all be in his mind, right?

But if it's all the power of the mind, as you say, then that power works in different ways, particularly when it's being formed and molded early in life. A parent and other influential authority figures in a child's life can help mold and form the child's mind, either in the positive or the negative. (That's part of the reason why "everyone gets a trophy" at school events, much to the criticism of conservatives, but the reasoning behind it is to balance out all the negative imagery and suggestions that fill up a child's mind and makes them believe they will fail.)

So, by the time a child reaches age 16 or 17, with 95% of their upbringing being a constant refrain of "you will fail, you will fail, you will fail," then that's what they will believe, because that's what they've been taught, and failure is what they've been living around all their lives. A few Norman Vincent Peale lectures won't be enough to reverse that. Your position is not realistic.

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie



(I believe that's what I just said).

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if everyone worked harder, nothing much would change for anyone

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ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
Actually, I've never read either of those authors, and my arguments have never been about "believe your way to wealth".

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Every argument I've made herein is....work your way to wealth.

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Can everyone do as well as Bill Gates?

Nope.

Donald Trump?

Nope.

But with nominal effort, they can do better than their current lot in life.

(Everyone).

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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if everyone worked harder, nothing much would change for anyone

What an odd philosophy. This could be true if everyone worked harder...but of course not everyone does and that is the point. Those that do have the best chance of getting ahead in this world and are most often rewarded with a better standard of living...Your father was right.

Are we just gonna have to take your word for this moronic bullshit or have you some sort of valid yardstick to measure this cinderella fantasy.
You are better off today than you would be if you had done nothing but look at your socieoeconomic position in society to day and look at your ancestors going back as far as you choose. A college diploma today is as common as a h/s diploma was a hundred years ago...two hundred years ago being able to read and write was considered pretty advanced education for the average person. What is so much different today in your family than one,two or three hundred years ago?

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ORIGINAL: chatterbox24

Is it possible to knowledge yourself to stupid?[sm=lol.gif]

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But with nominal effort, they can do better than their current lot in life.

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ORIGINAL: Kirata

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ORIGINAL: vincentML

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But with nominal effort, they can do better than their current lot in life.

With nominal effort and the resources available. It happens that drugs and guns are the most abundant resources in the ghettos we have created.

We didn't "create" them, but we helped expand them. The country has spent a fortune in past decades on well-intentioned programs that have rewarded the very cultural deterioration that we hoped to relieve, as evidenced by the continuing concentrations of poverty in densely populated inner-cities.

But contrary to your accounting, the people of our inner-cities do have other resources. Their minds, their hearts, their pride, and their determination. It's a bit suspicious the way people who want to "help" never seem to give blacks much credit for being able to accomplish anything on their own.