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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/16/2014 4:48:28 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

I haven't seen anything to indicate he was using drugs. But now that you have posted this I won't be a bit surprised to see someone else come along and claim it's a fact because they know they read it somewhere if they could only remember where......


Your google fu skills need brushing up, THB. Try the search phrase 'Markus Kaarma cannabis'.

Examples:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/drugs-factor-montana-garage-killing-cops-article-1.1782604
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/06/markus-kaarma-_n_5276002.html
http://missoulian.com/news/local/search-warrant-missoula-man-may-have-been-high-when-german/article_71e0d72c-d544-11e3-b2fa-001a4bcf887a.html

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 5/16/2014 4:49:43 AM >


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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/16/2014 7:20:32 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

I haven't seen anything to indicate he was using drugs. But now that you have posted this I won't be a bit surprised to see someone else come along and claim it's a fact because they know they read it somewhere if they could only remember where......


Your google fu skills need brushing up, THB. Try the search phrase 'Markus Kaarma cannabis'.

Examples:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/drugs-factor-montana-garage-killing-cops-article-1.1782604
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/06/markus-kaarma-_n_5276002.html
http://missoulian.com/news/local/search-warrant-missoula-man-may-have-been-high-when-german/article_71e0d72c-d544-11e3-b2fa-001a4bcf887a.html



That's interesting and certainly won't help his case. It also sounds like they suspect he set a trap which could end up backfiring on him and getting him a first degree charge. But I have to say, I have smoked a lot of pot and have know a lot of people who have also and I have never seen them get violent from it. Drinking on the other hand....

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/16/2014 7:28:41 PM   
TheHeretic


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That will be the key to their case, Boi. If they can prove it was an ambush, he goes away for a long time. On the other hand, if he was just super keyed up from the previous robberies, that's just bad luck for the dead dumbass.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/16/2014 8:36:19 PM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
That will be the key to their case, Boi. If they can prove it was an ambush, he goes away for a long time. On the other hand, if he was just super keyed up from the previous robberies, that's just bad luck for the dead dumbass.


Let's see....

A ) Open doorway when the homeowner has previously stated they were afraid of a break in.
B ) Purse with items that could be easily traced.
C ) electronic devices used for surveillance operations inside the garage.
D ) Reaction of the homeowner to exit the house, swing around to attack the intruder from behind.

Not a really hard case in a location where trapping animals is fairly common. Prosecutor has to show how a trapper might get prey and take the metaphor to this guy's set up in the garage. If the homeowner was stoned in either 1 ) setting the trap or 2 ) execution; his judgement was impaired (not an excuse for him).

The defense has to prove the garage was not a trap, and the teenager entered willfully to obtain money/loot and/or bring harm to the family. That will be tough given the homeowner left his drawbridge down in the first place. That and the teenager does not have a prior criminal record nor was a troubled individual.

< Message edited by joether -- 5/16/2014 8:37:55 PM >

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/16/2014 9:31:22 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

The defense has to prove the garage was not a trap

You need to keep reminding yourself that this is Earth, joether.

K.


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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/16/2014 9:31:59 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
The defense has to prove the garage was not a trap, and the teenager entered willfully to obtain money/loot and/or bring harm to the family. That will be tough given the homeowner left his drawbridge down in the first place. That and the teenager does not have a prior criminal record nor was a troubled individual.



Not much association with legal realities either, huh, Joether. The "drawbridge requirement" on the castle doctrine... It seems like you are assuming a duty to retreat.

All that has to be proven about the dead dumbass is that he entered the premises uninvited, and that is stipulated.

Just an FYI: In the US, the assumption is innocent until proven guilty. This very basic thing can be a stumbling block with non-US posters who are used to doing it the other way around, but I'd normally expect an American to grasp that the defense doesn't need to prove jack shit. Their job is to blow holes in the prosecution's case. Don't take my word for it. Look it up, by all means.

It works like this:

quote:


A ) Open doorway when the homeowner has previously stated they were afraid of a break in.
B ) Purse with items that could be easily traced.
C ) electronic devices used for surveillance operations inside the garage.
D ) Reaction of the homeowner to exit the house, swing around to attack the intruder from behind.


A) The home is still the home. They still smoked in the garage - the garage still needed to be aired out.

B) What purse doesn't have all sorts of easily traced items in it? And so what if it was in the garage - the home is still the home.

C) It's amazing how many people get a security system of some sort, after experiencing the invasion of being robbed. It's evem more amazing how many people think that will magically solve the problem. It's like people who buy exercise equipment when the doc says to lose weight, and then never use it.

D) It doesn't seem like the best of tactics, but that isn't subject to testing under the castle doctrine.

E) Let's just refresh on the firing blindly into the dark thing, even if you haven't gotten there yet - that's the way Vice-President Biden says to do it.

His story is that he panicked. That's protected by the castle doctrine. It's also what makes casual home-intrusion such a dumb and dangerous sport.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/16/2014 9:36:56 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

In the US, the assumption is innocent until proven guilty.

You have to forgive him, he's from...


http://www.engrish.com

K.


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/16/2014 9:37:41 PM >

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/16/2014 9:52:18 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata



http://www.engrish.com

K.



LOL! Looks like somebody in a Chinese factory got moved from making shirts for Germany, to designing for the US market.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 3:59:19 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:


That's interesting and certainly won't help his case. It also sounds like they suspect he set a trap which could end up backfiring on him and getting him a first degree charge. But I have to say, I have smoked a lot of pot and have know a lot of people who have also and I have never seen them get violent from it. Drinking on the other hand....


What right-thinking person hasn't puffed the Killer Weed in his time? I certainly have. ;-)

I've known some long term and heavy users become a bit paranoid and I think there's scientific evidence to suggest that this can happen. On the other hand, if he was both paranoid, and paranoid about his stash getting nicked in particular, and that were to be demonstrated ... I'd guess his defence would nose-dive.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 5:53:18 AM   
cloudboy


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The dumbass in this set of facts is the shooter -- but that doesn't really reflect his depravity. Using deadly force to protect one's property is disproportionate and in my jurisdiction, illegal.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 7:59:02 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


The dumbass in this set of facts is the shooter -- but that doesn't really reflect his depravity. Using deadly force to protect one's property is disproportionate and in my jurisdiction, illegal.



So what are you saying there, Cloudboy? That robbing people for sport is a perfectly reasonable, rational, sort of behavior? I disagree. The German kid was a dumbass. So was the Ecuadoran kid with him, who didn't get shot. The other two kids who have now admitted to robbing the place twice before were dumbasses too, but they were luckier. The whole set of facts is littered with dumbasses (and so is the thread).

What matters is what the lawful resident believed he was protecting.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 9:27:34 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


The dumbass in this set of facts is the shooter -- but that doesn't really reflect his depravity. Using deadly force to protect one's property is disproportionate and in my jurisdiction, illegal.

It isn't illegal in mine.

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People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 9:53:01 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


The dumbass in this set of facts is the shooter -- but that doesn't really reflect his depravity. Using deadly force to protect one's property is disproportionate and in my jurisdiction, illegal.

It isn't illegal in mine.



It is where I am, but there is a big "but" in the equation. The lawful resident isn't obligated to investigate the intent of an intruder.

I have a little work-related thing running right now. A particular individual with a history of instability and violence popped back up this week, contacting several offices, and making specific mention of me, by name. This is a freaky, scary guy, and I'm saying that as someone who isn't easily intimidated. The odd death threat just sort of comes with my job description.

I'm not all that hard to find. Plugging nothing more than what he knows into the search box on Whitepages.com will pop up a map to my house, and offer you a link for directions. I'm not going about my Saturday chores with a loaded gun in my pocket, but I'm definitely staying aware of what's going on around me, and the wife is taking a dog to work with her. Now would be a VERY bad time for some dumbass teenager to come prowling around my home in the middle of the night. That will probably be the way it is until he goes to court on the current case against him, takes his plea to a reduced charge, and goes off to spend another 18 months in prison. It should have happened already, but they just postponed the court date again.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 10:49:43 AM   
Kirata


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~ FR ~

You may recall a case from last July. White man shoots unarmed black teen. Sometime around 2am the teen climbed over Merritt Landry's fence and approached the home from the driveway. His fingerprints were found on the shutters of Landry's home, which had been opened.

Alerted to the intruder by his dog, Landry, who had his daughter and pregnant wife in the house, armed himself and went outside. When confronted, the teen, Marshall Coulter, 14, a Darwin Award candidate, decided to make a move. That bought him a bullet to the head.

Police determined that Landry had fired from a range of 30 feet. Nice shooting, but not a taxpayer-relief shot. Coulter ended up in the hospital, with all the usual drama and hand-wringing.

The seventh of eight children, Coulter had a history of burglary arrests. "He was a professional thief, sure," his older brother, who can only be described as an idiot, said. "But he would never pick up a gun, not in a million years. He was too scared to aim a gun at the grass, let alone aim it at a person. No way. Before he'll ever pick up a gun, he'll be your friend first."

Ah, well, alrighty then. Just an enterprising young professional doing his job. What a tragedy.

"we were repeatedly led to believe that he was in what can best be described as an irreparable, semi-vegetative state," Cannizzaro said. "When we visited with Coulter less than three months ago, we were led to believe that he could not walk without assistance and could only provide single-word responses to the simplest questions."

In December, Coulter's relatives told a reporter he was making progress in his recovery, after getting out of a coma and being released from a hospital. But they said he still needed brain surgery and could not get out of bed without help and had trouble forming sentences. Efforts to reach his family in recent weeks have been unsuccessful.


Except, well no. It seems he's doing very well. Well enough, in fact, to be arrested for another burglary.

Coulter was arrested earlier this month after a resident told police he found the teenager in his Marigny home. After that, another nearby resident said his video surveillance system captured Coulter attempting to enter his home about 20 minutes earlier than the burglary for which Coulter was arrested.

After news of that arrest surfaced, police linked Coulter to a third crime, this one in 2012 in which he is accused of entering a home on Frenchmen Street, taking a gun, threatening a resident who confronted him and then fleeing with the weapon. Coulter faces the most serious charge - aggravated burglary - in that case, which is before a juvenile court judge.


Although a Grand Jury did not return an indictment against Landry, the DA still considered the matter an open case. Not anymore. Landry's case is closed. He will not be charged. Instead, Marshall Coulter, the poor crippled boy who wasn't, who didn't like guns except when threatening people with them, will be the one locked up.

Feel good story of the day.

Source

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/17/2014 10:55:00 AM >

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 1:08:31 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


~ FR ~

You may recall a case from last July. White man shoots unarmed black teen. Sometime around 2am the teen climbed over Merritt Landry's fence and approached the home from the driveway. His fingerprints were found on the shutters of Landry's home, which had been opened.

Alerted to the intruder by his dog, Landry, who had his daughter and pregnant wife in the house, armed himself and went outside. When confronted, the teen, Marshall Coulter, 14, a Darwin Award candidate, decided to make a move. That bought him a bullet to the head.

Police determined that Landry had fired from a range of 30 feet. Nice shooting, but not a taxpayer-relief shot. Coulter ended up in the hospital, with all the usual drama and hand-wringing.

The seventh of eight children, Coulter had a history of burglary arrests. "He was a professional thief, sure," his older brother, who can only be described as an idiot, said. "But he would never pick up a gun, not in a million years. He was too scared to aim a gun at the grass, let alone aim it at a person. No way. Before he'll ever pick up a gun, he'll be your friend first."

Ah, well, alrighty then. Just an enterprising young professional doing his job. What a tragedy.

"we were repeatedly led to believe that he was in what can best be described as an irreparable, semi-vegetative state," Cannizzaro said. "When we visited with Coulter less than three months ago, we were led to believe that he could not walk without assistance and could only provide single-word responses to the simplest questions."

In December, Coulter's relatives told a reporter he was making progress in his recovery, after getting out of a coma and being released from a hospital. But they said he still needed brain surgery and could not get out of bed without help and had trouble forming sentences. Efforts to reach his family in recent weeks have been unsuccessful.


Except, well no. It seems he's doing very well. Well enough, in fact, to be arrested for another burglary.

Coulter was arrested earlier this month after a resident told police he found the teenager in his Marigny home. After that, another nearby resident said his video surveillance system captured Coulter attempting to enter his home about 20 minutes earlier than the burglary for which Coulter was arrested.

After news of that arrest surfaced, police linked Coulter to a third crime, this one in 2012 in which he is accused of entering a home on Frenchmen Street, taking a gun, threatening a resident who confronted him and then fleeing with the weapon. Coulter faces the most serious charge - aggravated burglary - in that case, which is before a juvenile court judge.


Although a Grand Jury did not return an indictment against Landry, the DA still considered the matter an open case. Not anymore. Landry's case is closed. He will not be charged. Instead, Marshall Coulter, the poor crippled boy who wasn't, who didn't like guns except when threatening people with them, will be the one locked up.

Feel good story of the day.

Source

K.


And several people on here will still want Landry prosecuted.

_____________________________

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People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 3:42:10 PM   
cloudboy


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The Use of Deadly Force in Self-Defense

Maryland also continues to follow common law principles on the issue of when one may use deadly force in self-defense. In the case of State v. Faulkner, 301 Md. 482, 485, 483 A.2d 759, 761 (1984), the Court of Appeals of Maryland summarized those principles, and stated that a homicide, other than felony murder, is justified on the ground of self-defense if the following criteria are satisfied:

(1) The accused must have had reasonable grounds to believe himself in apparent imminent or immediate danger of death or serious bodily harm from his assailant or potential assailant;

(2) The accused must have in fact believed himself in this danger;

(3) The accused claiming the right of self defense must not have been the aggressor or provoked the conflict;

(4) The force used must have not been unreasonable and excessive, that is, the force must not have been more force than the exigency demanded.

See also Roach v. State, 358 Md. 418, 429-30, 749 A.2d 787, 793 (2000).

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 3:52:19 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


The Use of Deadly Force in Self-Defense

Maryland also continues to follow common law principles on the issue of when one may use deadly force in self-defense. In the case of State v. Faulkner, 301 Md. 482, 485, 483 A.2d 759, 761 (1984), the Court of Appeals of Maryland summarized those principles, and stated that a homicide, other than felony murder, is justified on the ground of self-defense if the following criteria are satisfied:

(1) The accused must have had reasonable grounds to believe himself in apparent imminent or immediate danger of death or serious bodily harm from his assailant or potential assailant;

(2) The accused must have in fact believed himself in this danger;

(3) The accused claiming the right of self defense must not have been the aggressor or provoked the conflict;

(4) The force used must have not been unreasonable and excessive, that is, the force must not have been more force than the exigency demanded.

See also Roach v. State, 358 Md. 418, 429-30, 749 A.2d 787, 793 (2000).


4 is stupid, it assumes that the bad guy will miss the first shot, it also codifies Monday morning quarterbacking.
This happened in Montana, not Maryland where they arrest you for not calling a time out
to call 911 and wait for the cops.

< Message edited by BamaD -- 5/17/2014 3:55:36 PM >


_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 4:48:06 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


The Use of Deadly Force in Self-Defense

Maryland also continues to follow common law principles on the issue of when one may use deadly force in self-defense. In the case of State v. Faulkner, 301 Md. 482, 485, 483 A.2d 759, 761 (1984), the Court of Appeals of Maryland summarized those principles, and stated that a homicide, other than felony murder, is justified on the ground of self-defense if the following criteria are satisfied:

(1) The accused must have had reasonable grounds to believe himself in apparent imminent or immediate danger of death or serious bodily harm from his assailant or potential assailant;

(2) The accused must have in fact believed himself in this danger;

(3) The accused claiming the right of self defense must not have been the aggressor or provoked the conflict;

(4) The force used must have not been unreasonable and excessive, that is, the force must not have been more force than the exigency demanded.

See also Roach v. State, 358 Md. 418, 429-30, 749 A.2d 787, 793 (2000).




Well that is just lovely Googling there Cloudboy, but you got the wrong place. The relevant law is a bit different.

45-3-103. Use of force in defense of occupied structure. (1) A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the use of force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure.

(2) A person justified in the use of force pursuant to subsection (1) is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if:

(a) the entry is made or attempted and the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent an assault upon the person or another then in the occupied structure; or

(b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure.



_____________________________

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 4:54:51 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Teenagers call it garage hopping. The goal was to sneak into an open garage, steal some beer or other items and slip away into the night. It was dumb and clearly illegal. It was not supposed to be deadly.

Inside the house, motion sensors alerted Markus Kaarma, 29, to an intruder’s presence.....

....he grabbed a shotgun from the dining room and rushed outside......

....He aimed into the garage and, according to court documents, fired four blasts into the dark.....

Mr. Dede’s (a 17-year-old exchange student from Germany named Diren Dede ) body crumpled to the floor.


---------

I can only shake my head in dismay......


Why does this make you shake your head in dismay?

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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 5:29:05 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

That's one way to empty the jails and save the economy..................Kill everybody who commits a crime. Not trials; no reports to file.
Peon, I was brought up in a really nice, quiet area where there was no crime or violence..............I am sure you know the Whitechapel, Aldgate, Bethnal Green areas of London ??? I served in a rather noisy area of the military and since coming to Australia, have never picked up a weapon except to shoot (non-human) vermin. I see a gun as a beautifully made piece of machinery but like you, I am baffled by the idea that simply owning one gives you the right to take a life. Even coming from my background, that seems a little weird, to say the least. Fucked up WOULD be a much better way of putting it.


Having also been raised in a (very) low crime area as a child, reared in a well to do area where the police responded abruptly, I was against guns, then later, being a bad kid, in the mid 70's, sent to a military school for the remaining 4 years of High School, I became the only student in the entire (then) 127 year history of the school to ever get out of rifle practice (in military school, that's kind of like Home Ec. in any other school....you do it).

I went to the Headmaster (Colonel), I sucked at rifle practice. I was afraid of guns and my results showed same. I'd done it for 2 years, hated every second of it...I was barely a "Marksman" (I could hit the outside of the target well beyond 3% of the time). 11th grade, I was a Lieutenant in my grade, and I went to the Colonel and said "how do I get out of rifle practice?"

He said "Son, you're in a military school...we shoot guns...it's kinda what we do".

I explained how much I hated guns, he looked at my rifle prowess and said...."if you can hit 'expert' ("Sharpshooter" of course, was the top) within 12 weeks, I'll let you out of rifle practice", knowing full well that if I could hit a target within 30% of the center if it were literally duct taped to my rifle, he'd have a sure bet.

I spent 4 hours a day at the rifle field, every day and within 3 weeks I was an "Expert".

I handed him the results and, I was, in moments, and remain to this day, the only student who ever got out of rifle practice in that school.

That said....about 10 years ago a neighbor of mine (70's) explained she felt uncomfortable about both, potential crime (I still lived in a decent area....) and her age (she was single) and wanted someone to go to gun class with her and, after a lot of hesitation, I agreed.

Today, at 55, still living in a nice area (but all areas in the world have changed), I realize I'm not 22 anymore and....I have extensive training, I'm a very good shot, I still hate guns but, I practice weekly....I respect them and know that there are bad people in this world, and I have 7 very capable munitions.

Ready.

That said, knowing that I as a kid did everything this kid did in the news report (x's 1,000 and more), the kid broke into someone's home.

The owner didn't know it was a kid.

This ain't the 60's any more.

It's very sad but....the home owner was right.

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