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RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 8:28:14 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

Your question , at is an oxymoron, if they are breaking into your home they have already expressed a
willingness to commit whatever violence they need to to get what they want. If they start a fight when they are unarmed that is their problem.
How could you know that all they want is property, do you expect a written statement of their intent?
They have also declared, at a minimum that they have the right to anything you have, that you can work to get it but they can have it anytime they want.
Might not shoot them, I have an ax, a sword, and a Bowie knife.

Our posts crossed.

Thank you for your answer, Bama, though I think TheHeretic was trying his damnedest to get you not to.

I honestly don't know what the answer to the question would be for the average American on this versus the average Brit. One case here in the UK did involve a man who shot at a thief. There were calls at the time for him to escape prison. For many, it all boiled down to the exact same question: "Is one's property - one's home - worth taking a life for?"

I would like to keep it to that hypothetical question, and aside from matters of whether others in the house could be harmed, and assuming that, somehow, you're pretty sure he just wants property. That can't be unimaginable in certain real-life situations, surely?

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Post #: 281

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 8:29:15 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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I'm not stopping Bama from answering anything, Peon. Going by a great many of these threads, he'll keep going long after I've wandered off in boredom.

But I am calling your question bullshit. Or, to keep the metaphor consistent, a flung turd.

In a moment where a lawful resident must decide whether or not to use force against an intruder into the home, how exactly are they supposed to know the intent of an intruder? Mindreading?

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Post #: 282

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 8:35:30 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

But I am calling your question bullshit. Or, to keep the metaphor consistent, a flung turd.

In a moment where a lawful resident must decide whether or not to use force against an intruder into the home, how exactly are they supposed to know the intent of an intruder? Mindreading?

Yes, I realise that you think my question is bullshit, TH. I got that the first few of times you said it. I can only gently repeat my own suggestion that you shovel that faecal matter back into your own head.

How are they meant to know? God, where would I begin to give examples? When someone has collected a large bag of belongings and is currently climbing out of the window. When you've surprised them in your house and they look terrified and try to run. Are these situations entirely unrealistic?

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Post #: 283

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 8:47:13 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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You don't know what is in the bag. You don't know if they are terrified they have been caught in a robbery, or in the aftermath of a violent crime. You can make a judgement call, but you cannot know for sure, until after the initial contact.

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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 284

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 8:48:54 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

I ... have truthfully never read a rash response from The Heretic.

Stick with me, Louve. I'm sure we'll get you there.

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Post #: 285

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 9:00:38 PM

Louve00

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I've got my seatbelt on Heretic

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Post #: 286

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 9:38:16 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

For many, it all boiled down to the exact same question: "Is one's property - one's home - worth taking a life for?"

I would like to keep it to that hypothetical question, and aside from matters of whether others in the house could be harmed, and assuming that, somehow, you're pretty sure he just wants property. That can't be unimaginable in certain real-life situations, surely?

When I get a place, the first thing I do is make it my own. I paint, I fix up, I arrange my furniture to please, I place my cherished mementos and sculptures and artworks just so. These things are not just "property," they are a part of what makes me and my home unique. They give me pleasure. Without them, I might as well be living in a motel. And when I am finished, I settle down to enjoy my digs.

The idea that a man's home is his castle goes beyond the letter of the law. To find that someone has invaded and robbed me is an assault on my ability to feel comfortable and secure in my home. It goes far beyond the loss of what we are so quick to characterize as merely a "property crime." Even once is bad enough, but to have it happen twice in a relatively short time is beyond the pale. I would be fit to be tied. And if it happened a third time....

Well, suffice it to say I would not feel any responsibility toward the motherfucker. This shit has to stop, and it wouldn't matter to me in the slightest if it wasn't the same person. I wouldn't be thinking in terms of persons. I would be thinking in terms of criminals, period, and shooting one is as good as the next. Because I'm not willing just to accept this shit, to live like that. So tough luck, punk. Now, what's for lunch?

I say all that by way of observing that nobody seems to give much consideration, let alone sympathy, to Kaarma's state of mind. He had been robbed twice. He got no help from the police, who in typical fashion probably took a report, filed it, and did little or nothing. He got no help from the parents of these thieving spawn, who obviously neglected to stress this particular point of ethics sufficiently, and perhaps even neglected to notice or question the appearance in their offspring's possession of things they didn't have before.

Now a kid is dead, shot during the commission of a burglary. Did he "deserve" to die? Of course not. And in different circumstances, maybe Kaarma would just have turned the garage light on and yelled, "Hey!" But this was the third time. And it's just pure bad luck that the kid didn't turn out to have a rap sheet as long as your arm for assaults and weapons possessions. One does not as a rule expect to find clean-cut exchange students burglarizing one's home.

So there is a tragedy here, to be sure. But that didn't become apparent until after the fact, and a lot of people played a role in it happening. The police, the parents, the host-parents, and not least of all the thieving student himself.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/17/2014 10:34:59 PM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 287

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 9:51:49 PM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
In a moment where a lawful resident must decide whether or not to use force against an intruder into the home, how exactly are they supposed to know the intent of an intruder? Mindreading?

Did the teenager....BREACH...the house? That would mean opening or destroying a window. It would mean opening or breaking down a door. Or entering the actual living space in some other fashion that indicates intent is not normal?

Did the teenager do any of these things? The answer is 'no'. The homeowner was an idiot for leaving his drawbridge down (i.e. the partially closed garage door). Where would be the best spot to set up a defense with a shotgun:

A ) Running out a side door, in the middle of the night, without lights, circling around to the partially opened door, in the open, with no back up nor clear line of retreat?

B ) Inside the room leading into the garage, in a defensive position, having called the police, and ready for a full counter attack with surprise?

You seem to favor 'A' over 'B'. I know many gun owners would agree with 'B'. Since 'B' would hold up in a criminal case...even...if the homeowner was high on pot.

You keep coming back with all these 'what ifs' and 'maybe he was going to do this...' based on...NO ACTUAL EVIDENCE. This homeowner was an idiot with a firearm. An he should go to trial.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 288

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 10:31:02 PM

joether

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Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
To find that someone has invaded and robbed me is an assault on my ability to feel comfortable and secure in my home. It goes far beyond the loss of what we are so quick to characterize as merely a "property crime." Even once is bad enough, but to have it happen twice in a relatively short time is beyond the pale. I would be fit to be tied. And if it happened a third time....

And when did this teenager invade and rob the homeowner? In order to invade, he have to...BREACH THE STRUCTURE. That did not happen. What did the teenager have on his person that was of significant value that was also the homeowner's property? Nothing. If you knew there were two burglaries in the area, would you leave any portion of your house open at night? Doors unlocked? This homeowner had his door not just unlocked, but opened. Either he was a complete idiot or he was setting a trap. Given other information known, it sounds like he was setting a trap.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Well, suffice it to say I would not feel any responsibility toward the motherfucker. This shit has to stop, and it wouldn't matter to me in the slightest if it wasn't the same person. I wouldn't be thinking in terms of persons. I would be thinking in terms of criminals, period, and shooting one is as good as the next. Because I'm not willing just to accept this shit, to live like that. So tough luck, punk. Now, what's for lunch?

A 'criminal' in our legal system is one that has been found GUILTY of a crime in a court of law. Until then, they are considered 'honest and law abiding citizens'. You would shoot an 'honest and law abiding citizen'? Love to see the backpedalling on this one....

Second, do you really think by shooting one person, all crime everywhere would instantly stop and no more crime would never take place for the rest of mankind's future history? WOW....someone thinks he's the center of the universe....

The moment you fire a gun, you ARE responsible for everything down range. Your saying you would attack an unknown and unidentified intruder with intent to kill? That you would assume a great many things without an ounce of evidence to support any of it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I say all that by way of observing that nobody seems to give much consideration, let alone sympathy, to Kaarma's state of mind. He had been robbed twice. He got no help from the police, who in typical fashion probably took a report, filed it, and did little or nothing. He got no help from the parents of these thieving spawn, who obviously neglected to stress this particular point of ethics sufficiently, and perhaps even neglected to notice or question the appearance in their offspring's possession of things they didn't have before.

Curious how the ones that robbed him and this teenager have no connection to each other, isn't it?

Who is to say the police did not help? How did the thieves...GET...CAUGHT? Go ahead Kirata....TRY...to bullshit this one....

You also have this silly assumption that parents know 100% what goes on in their kid's lives. You have kids, right? Can you give me the full script of every single thing they said within the last 24 hours? Including all the times they were not in your presence? Can you account for all of their actions and where-abouts; including when you were not observing them? That's your argument taken to its logical conclusion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Now a kid is dead, shot during the commission of a burglary. Did he "deserve" to die? Of course not. And in different circumstances, maybe Kaarma would just have turned the garage light on and yelled, "Hey!" But this was the third time. And it's just pure luck, bad in this case, that the kid didn't turn out to have a rap sheet as long as your arm for assaults and weapons possessions. One does not as a rule expect to find clean-cut exchange students burglarizing one's home. We would expect them to be smarter and better raised than that. But apparently this one wasn't.

There is a kid who is dead because he made one error of judgement. Killed by a man who made a pile of errors in his judgement. If the teenager was a burglar....PROVE IT. There is no evidence to support the claim. Why did the homeowner not turn on lights or carry a flashlight? He can afford a shotgun but not a flashlight? Sounds like a flimsy excuse. And yes, there are all sorts of 'what ifs'; like, why didn't the teenager have Terminator Armor? Your trying to justify a homeowner's actions whom are clearly questionable at best. His motivates are not 'pure and clean' self defense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
So there is a tragedy here, to be sure. But a lot of people played a role in it happening. The police, the parents, the host-parents, and not least of all the thieving exchange student himself. So when I read at all this righteous condemnation of a "depraved" homeowner, I really have to wonder. Because it strikes me as the same kind of tunnel-vision that probably afflicted Kaarma when confronted with yet a third burglary of his home.

People played roles, but only one of those groups did actual real wrong. Your going to have us all believe that a missing beer bottle would have financially crashed the homeowner? Seriously? That is what 'garage hoping' is.....

If your afraid of your house being burglarized....YOU LOCK YOU FUCKING HOUSE UP. You....LEAVE THE OUTSIDE LIGHTS ON. You...CLOSE ALL DOORS and WINDOWS. Oh sorry, I'm talking common sense.....

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 289

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 10:41:17 PM

LafayetteLady

Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline

~Fast Reply~

I'm really curious how many of those hailing the homeowner have been in a situation (non_military or job related) where they shot someone and killed them?

Its quite easy to spout retoric about how a situation should rightly be handled without ever having been in a similar situation. Its quite another to be faced with that situation and follow through.

Its a well known fact that soldiers come home completely messed up about the gore they see or commit in action, something they took an oath to do when signing up. Yet so many claim they would feel nothing about killing another human being without full, actual knowledge their or their family's life was in danger, only an unknown possibility. Human life has so little value to them and they are proud to announce it.

Has anyone considered the very real possibility that since this "garage hopping" is so common as to have a name, that the areas where it is occuring have been alerted and therefore know the actual extent of threat, which is minimal in terms of bodily harm? Yes, its criminal activity, and yes it should be stopped. However, the concept that a crime which would likley be pled down to a misdemeanor offense because they are likely first time juvenile offenders is turned into a death sentence because "a man's home is his castle" is indescribable in its lack of logic. Its like children thinking they can beat you senseless because you took their toy.

Incidentally, when they talk about justifiable force, cut the ignorany bullshit of. "How do you know until after?" T tends to mean "like for like" as in if someone punches you you can punch back, not take a knife and stab them, or get your gun and shoot them. If you don't understand that basic premise of "justifiable force," you haven't sense enough to own a gun.

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 290

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 10:41:46 PM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

I'm talking common sense.....

If your posting history is anything to go by, you have never talked common sense about anything in your life. You just make shit up and parade yourself as a font of wisdom and moral superiority.

A neurosis is a secret that you don't know you are keeping. ~Kenneth Tynan

K.

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 291

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/17/2014 11:18:10 PM

DaddySatyr

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Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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Some of the things I own are priceless to me. Some are, essentially, irreplaceable. Go look up a 1962 Fender Stratocaster or a 1974 Univox Les Paul; the latter are no longer made and I rebuilt it, myself, to my own personal specs.

Worth killing for? I don't know. I don't know that they're not.

I no longer own a firearm because I decided, years ago, that I wasn't willing to take a human life anymore. However, if someone is in my home, late at night I'd be willing to bet that the Louisville Slugger I keep in the hallway, right outside my bedroom door would come into play.

My assumption is: if they're in my house, there's a better than 50-50 chance that they're armed. They may make me a victim but I refuse to volunteer to be one.

ETA: I should say: that I wasn't meaning to say that those guitars are the priceless items; they sure as hell would be next to impossible to replace.

Screen captures still RULE! Ya feel me?

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 5/17/2014 11:20:36 PM >

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Post #: 292

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/18/2014 5:19:44 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

So there is a tragedy here, to be sure. But that didn't become apparent until after the fact, and a lot of people played a role in it happening. The police, the parents, the host-parents, and not least of all the thieving student himself.

K.

Yes You are quite correct. There is a tragedy happening here. And you are quite right to assert that there is a lot of blame to be shared around police, parents, the shooter and the thieving student too. All the parties concerned have a share of the responsibility. Too true.

So how does that make it right for a single party - the hapless thieving student engaged in what was most probably considered no more than a prank - to carry the can with his life for all the responsible parties? And how does it make it right for almost everyone else to get off scot free?

I get the feeling of violation that those who have been burgled suffer. I've suffered it myself. But I imagine that the hapless student's mother is feeling violated too. And unlike the feelings of violation that I, the house owner and all victims of theft suffer, there's no way of that poor woman ever getting over the violation she is suffering and will suffer every day for the rest of her life.

The house owner had other legal options available to him, options that didn't include taking a life. He should have used them. Instead he acted with far greater recklessness than the thieving student. And he's going to escape his share of responsibility forever.

Property can be insured and replaced. Life cannot. All human lives are irreplaceable - regardless of where any one of us might locate them on the food chain.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/18/2014 5:36:47 AM >

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Post #: 293

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/18/2014 5:41:03 AM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

he's going to get off scot free for the rest of his life.

Far from it, I warrant, no matter the legal disposition of the case. I think you deny his humanity too cavalierly. I'm sure he was as blindsided as anyone when he discovered that the expected miscreant was a clean-cut exchange student. We always see things that we could have, and perhaps "should" have, done differently when an outcome is tragic. But if the intruder was discovered to have been armed with a long record, then we'd be glad we were smart enough not to have taken any chances. That's just the way it is. And you're right, there's nothing fair about it.

K.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 294

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/18/2014 5:41:12 AM

cloudboy

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There's an article is Salon about how Fox News portrays a world where white people are under siege.

The basic fact of life in the USA is that most people, and thieves too, run away when confronted. Calling out a simple, "who's there" or "I've called the police," or turning the lights on will make an intruder flee. If you want to be more threatening, you can say, "I've got a gun." The US is not Fallujah.

I don't know where the idea comes from, especially for white men, that a home invader is violent and bent on committing an assault or murder. Could this happen? Yes. Does it happen, rarely. It is quite odd to hear about a white man shot or assaulted in his own home by an intruder. Its much more common to hear about rape, but women don't share the same enthusiasm for guns that men do.

When I was child it was quite common in our neighborhood to go exploring and sneaking into other peoples' yards. Many participants in this thread would have shot us dead or approached us with a loaded weapon. We would have regarded them as crazy. The law in Maryland would prosecute them as murderers.

It is irrational for Americans to feel this under siege, but as you can see, they do. A man with Alzheimer's shot dead while confused and lost. A teenager in his own neighborhood shot dead with skittles in his pocket. A black man after a car accident seeking help shot 10 times by the police. A German exchange student shot dead for sneaking into another's open garage.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/18/2014 5:47:37 AM >

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 295

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/18/2014 6:00:37 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

he's going to get off scot free for the rest of his life.

Far from it, I warrant, no matter the legal disposition of the case. I think you deny his humanity too cavalierly. I'm sure he was as blindsided as anyone when he discovered that the expected miscreant was a clean-cut exchange student. We always see things that we could have, and perhaps "should" have, done differently when an outcome is tragic. But if the intruder was discovered to have been armed with a long record, then we'd be glad we were smart enough not to have taken any chances. That's just the way it is. And you're right, there's nothing fair about it.

K.

Your point is a reasonable one. I hope that you are right when you suggest that I have under-estimated Kaarma's humanity. If I was in his shoes I would be feeling an awful lot of remorse. I imagine it would be hellish.

But he put himself in that position by his recklessness, just as the hapless student put himself in the line of fire through his recklessness. Both had choices to make and both made bad choices. Had either made a more responsible choice, the tragedy would have been averted. Isn't that the whole point of this sorry episode?

Unfortunately one party will escape any legal consequences. If his 'right' to escape legal culpability had been qualified* would Kaarma have made the same choice or would he have phoned the police and detained the offender until their arrival? I'm inclined to think most reasonable people would have acted with more restraint if they knew they could face legal consequences for over reacting.

Is this a case where the castle doctrine enabled Kaarma to act in the reckless way he chose to act?

* an example would be that the householder would permitted to use deadly force only if his/her life or his/her family's lives was in immediate danger.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/18/2014 6:04:32 AM >

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Post #: 296

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/18/2014 6:27:15 AM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

A man with Alzheimer's shot dead while confused and lost. A teenager in his own neighborhood shot dead with skittles in his pocket. A black man after a car accident seeking help shot 10 times by the police. A German exchange student shot dead for sneaking into another's open garage.

It is of course sad when mistakes occur, but I find myself less than troubled by the news that individuals who commit assaults and break into houses are getting shot. In particular because there is a very simple solution to the problem. Don't go around beating on people and stealing from them.

Yes I know, it's complex. Think about it.

K.

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 297

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/18/2014 6:50:31 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

an example would be that the householder would permitted to use deadly force only if his/her life or his/her family's lives was in immediate danger.

The problem is, there's no way to know and great potential risk attached to finding out. Maybe he means you harm, maybe he doesn't, and maybe he will if you interfere with his interest in obtaining your valuables. How are you supposed to know? And at what risk are you supposed to find out? Castle doctrine grants a homeowner the right to assume that anyone sneaking into his house in the middle of the night is not there for friendly purposes. This is a reasonable supposition. If the intruder's unknown purpose did not involve the homeowner in some way, why would he pick a time when the owner was at home to enter the dwelling in the first place? That's a Darwin Award right there.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/18/2014 6:54:28 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 298

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/18/2014 7:05:30 AM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
I'm talking common sense.....

If your posting history is anything to go by, you have never talked common sense about anything in your life. You just make shit up and parade yourself as a font of wisdom and moral superiority.

You first need to HAVE common sense, in order to know HOW to use it and spot it. You have many times my posts, and never make a useful post....

You dislike mine, as they usually correctly slam yours (and show EVIDENCE) for the foolish crap you shovel.

Example: You couldn't counter one thing in what I said; but I countered each of yours.

< Message edited by joether -- 5/18/2014 7:06:10 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 299

RE: Senseless Gun Violence -- Fearful Homeowner Kills U... - 5/18/2014 7:12:50 AM

joether

Posts: 5195
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
an example would be that the householder would permitted to use deadly force only if his/her life or his/her family's lives was in immediate danger.

The problem is, there's no way to know and great potential risk attached to finding out. Maybe he means you harm, maybe he doesn't, and maybe he will if you interfere with his interest in obtaining your valuables. How are you supposed to know? And at what risk are you supposed to find out? Castle doctrine grants a homeowner the right to assume that anyone sneaking into his house in the middle of the night is not there for friendly purposes. This is a reasonable supposition. If the intruder's unknown purpose did not involve the homeowner in some way, why would he pick a time when the owner was at home to enter the dwelling in the first place? That's a Darwin Award right there.

So you would advocate people leaving a place of safety and fortification, to move outside, in the open, at night, without lights, to confront an unknown enemy, who's strength is equally unknown, without a clear line of retreat, and attack said unknown entity with total force. This is were having 'common sense' helps in determining this is not a good idea.

Now, that intruder happen to have friends watching. Imagine if they were all armed to the teeth? You run to the outside of that partially opened garage and start firing inside. What would have happened? They would have fired on your position. Since you had no cover from the surprise attack, your mowed down.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 300

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