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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 9:35:44 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

But even one dead kid is one too many

Ah, the old "one dead kid" argument. On that basis we should outlaw swimming pools. Lose the clown suit, bozo. All you're trying to do is imply that anyone who disagrees with you wants kids to die. Choke on it.

K.




Bad argument and one framed in a very dangerous way.Swimming pools can be dangerous, people get hurt and killed in them all the time, that is true. However, with swimming pools, there are rules around them. if you have a swimming pool and it is unfenced, and a kid wanders into the yard and drowns, you will be held responsible for the child's death, for not foreseeing the reasonable possibility that this could happen and trying to prevent it,especially if it is your own child. As a parent, you failed to protect your child, you acted with what is known as depraved indifference, since you should have known better. The law doesn't say "oh, it is your child and your land", they take that right out of your hands.

With things like therapy, where harm isn't so obvious, the law may go to the next step and ban it, because it may be out of most parents hands to understand if a therapy is dangerous or not. Leaving a pool unfenced is a pretty obvious hazard, you as a parent have a set of very visible, very real criteria to know it is harmful, and yet building codes require you to have it fenced and will hold you accountable if it isn't, pure and simple.

With therapeutic or things claiming to be therapeutic, it isn't that cut and dried, so there isn't the possibility of telling a parent "okay, reparative therapy can be dangerous but here is how it can be made safe", you cannot do that, it isn't possible. If a therapy technique is found to be harmful to patients, especially children, then that right to use it no longer exists, the way you don't have the right to leave that pool unfenced.

Going back to the swimming pool analogy, suppose you went to the pool store and a guy told you he just got this miracle treatment for the water, where you would never have to clean the pool, check the chlorine, etc........and you decided to use it. 6 months later, you read that the government has determined that swimming in water treated with this stuff causes kidney damage and cancer, and they ban it. To you it is a great product, saves you work and such, but the government, using methods and information you don't have, bans it to protect people.

When they ban reparative therapy, they do so because whatever rewards you can claim coming out of it, there is a discernible harm that makes it such that like the swimming pool treatment, it is too risky to allow people to make the determination of risk, unlike owning a pool which has risks but also has way to minimize those risks. There is a difference between allowing something you know can cause harm, versus something that can cause harm but that there was ways to minimize the risks.


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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 9:36:55 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

A few things from a recent Newsweek story on this caught my eye:

Reparative therapy—more often called “conversion therapy” in the scientific literature—has been declared invalid by nearly all the relevant medical organizations, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the World Health Organization and the National Association of Social Workers.

* * *

In actuality, the laws in California and New Jersey have not banned conversion therapy in entirety. What they have done, however, is prohibited it for minors. (Emphasis mine.)

* * *

California and New Jersey, meanwhile, have followed a professional trend in recent years, where advocates have become outspoken about the risk of long-term psychological damages that can be wrought on minors forced to undergo conversion therapy by their parents or communities. One study, for example, found that conversion therapy patients are six times more likely than their homosexual peers to report depression and eight times more likely to attempt suicide.

* * *

Many former members of the “ex-gay” community that rose to prominence in the mid-to-late 1990s agree. “I have met over 1,000 people who have been harmed and damaged by this kind of therapy,” John Paulk told Newsweek. Paulk is a former leader of one of the most influential ex-gay groups, Exodus International who has since divorced his wife and now lives as an openly gay man.



The guy who founded exodus international and shut it down admits it as much.

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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 9:42:57 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Presumably those wishing to 'cure' themselves of their sexual preferences are going to avail themselves of some service offering such an outcome.

For me the question is whether such 'cures' are conscionable. There is no evidence that they work, they have no scientific or empirical basis - they show all the signs of quack 'cures' promoted by snake oil salespeople. Most experts in the field of sexuality doubt whether such 'cures' can actually be effected. So I see the call to stop this disreputable practice as closing down these shady operators and snake oil salespeople.

If people still wish to change their sexual preference through prayer or the like, they're welcome to try. But they should be alerted to the fact that these approaches don't work and in the opinion of many experts, cannot work.


Any time you go into a hospital for a medical procedure they have to explain the chances of success and possible problems that could come up as a result of it. I don't see why this would be any different.


The difference is those medical procedures have been approved by the FDA and the medical boards that oversee medical treatment, they don't allow hospitals and doctors to concoct some treatment on their own and use it on the patients. One of the reasons they can talk about chances of success like that and side effects is the procedures are tested and validated before being allowed to be used in a general way. Medical procedures are regulated, and if something is found to be ineffective and/or dangerous, it is banned.

That is basically what the ban on reparative therapy is, it doesn't work and it can cause damage, which if it were a medical treatment would mean it would be banned.

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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 9:44:29 AM   
njlauren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

That's just astonishing. What a bunch of children!

It gets worse.

http://themooredaily.com/news/throwing-the-first-stone-state-house-district-91-candidate-expresses-extreme-views-on-gays


Doesn't it bother these people that what they say looks so much like the sort of insane witch-doctor lunacy that comes out of third world countries that have never experienced an enlightenment? What is the point of inventing this thing we call 'reason' if people so comprehensively ditch it?

DC, come and live here in the UK. It's a proper country where you have to be over 18 to hold any government post. People here don't automatically assume you're a communist, terrorist or Satanist if you go around being reasonable, balanced and grown-up about stuff.


I hear they get upset if you insist on putting milk and lemon in tea.......

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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 11:19:02 AM   
dcnovice


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FR

Interesting read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/19/health/dr-robert-l-spitzer-noted-psychiatrist-apologizes-for-study-on-gay-cure.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 12:10:32 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Is there a lot of science backing up the efficacy of gay-to-straight therapies?

Not that I know of, but would you expect there to be? I would expect that only a small portion of gays would want to change, and only a small portion of them would be successful. But that's not the point, is it? Banning even the attempt is an attack on individual freedom and a suppression of science. We should tolerate this why? Ken claims it's necessary, because otherwise parents will inflict misery on their children by forcing them into reparative therapies. But will they? How many parents would do that? And how many would succeed? My parents never had much luck forcing me to do something I didn't want to do.

K.



Talk to gay people who grew up with shithead parents, and you will hear what Ken is talking about. It is a bit different between a parent trying to get a kid to eat broccolli or go visit Aunt Edna and her 60 cats, and something like reparative therapy. Tell me, what would you do if you saw a parent who believed that the way to make a kid strong was to douse him in cold water and make him stand outside in cold weather for a half hour every day (and yes, virginia, that once was a method some believed would make a child grow up strong)? You would probably call the local authorities and have the parents charged with child abuse....and it is much the same idea with reparative therapy, that the 'treatment' is basically an attempt at brain washing and worse (they use questionable methods, like showing the kid a picture of a same sex partner, asking if the kid is attracted to the picture, then slapping the kid and telling him to expel the devil, or using drugs)....you say your parents weren't good at getting you to do things, but you also likely had parents who didn't try to get you to eat brocolli by slapping you or making you go into a dark closet until you 'changed your mind', can't say the same thing about many anti gay parents.


I do some fund raising for the Howard Brown teen center. A fair number of the homeless kids they work with are runaways who left rather than stay in these therapy programs/camps. The camps are really the worst. They dump these kids some where isolated and mistreat them in the belief that a dose of religion and physical work will turn them straight and if that doesn't work a lot of violence will do the trick.

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1vdyrd/gay_reditors_who_have_been_sent_away_to_pray_away/
http://www.reddit.com/r/troubledteens/comments/hk0xy/a_gay_teen_describes_her_experience_at_a_utah/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Association_of_Specialty_Programs_and_Schools

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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 1:18:07 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Doesn't it bother these people that what they say looks so much like the sort of insane witch-doctor lunacy that comes out of third world countries that have never experienced an enlightenment?


I think that's considered a feature.

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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 1:22:38 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Presumably those wishing to 'cure' themselves of their sexual preferences are going to avail themselves of some service offering such an outcome.

For me the question is whether such 'cures' are conscionable. There is no evidence that they work, they have no scientific or empirical basis - they show all the signs of quack 'cures' promoted by snake oil salespeople. Most experts in the field of sexuality doubt whether such 'cures' can actually be effected. So I see the call to stop this disreputable practice as closing down these shady operators and snake oil salespeople.

If people still wish to change their sexual preference through prayer or the like, they're welcome to try. But they should be alerted to the fact that these approaches don't work and in the opinion of many experts, cannot work.


Any time you go into a hospital for a medical procedure they have to explain the chances of success and possible problems that could come up as a result of it. I don't see why this would be any different.


THB, given who you are and how you've become as an adult, I'm sometimes astonished that you'd still want to support such gobsmackingly awful views as this. Why do you do it? You must know that all it would do is create utter misery for someone like you. Why do you have such rigid knee-jerk loyalty to revolting rightie opinions that have never done you or people like you any good whatsoever?



I never said I agreed with the therapy, I said it should be up to the individual person. If for what ever reason I decide that I don't want to be gay, I don't think it is anyone else's business if I try to change that.

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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 1:32:32 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Doesn't it bother these people that what they say looks so much like the sort of insane witch-doctor lunacy that comes out of third world countries that have never experienced an enlightenment?


I think that's considered a feature.

And a cause to support.

Loving Uganda to Death: The Global Reach of Far-Right Christian Hatred

The role that American religious right leaders have played in fomenting anti-gay bigotry in Uganda has been well-documented, but never before with the emotional punch delivered by God Loves Uganda, a new documentary by Academy Award-winning director Roger Ross Williams that premiered at this year’s Sundance Film Festival.

“I love Uganda,” says Kapya Koama in the film’s opening words. But, “something frightening is happening that has the potential to destroy Uganda.”

Filmmaker Williams was given remarkable access to leaders and missionaries affiliated with the International House of Prayer (IHOP) movement based in Kansas City, and he makes the most of it. Dominionist Lou Engle describes Africa as a “firepot of spiritual renewal and revival,” and be believes Uganda has a special prophetic destiny. Engle has tried to distance himself somewhat from the infamous “kill the gays” bill that is pending in Uganda’s legislature, but here he is on film, at his TheCall rally in Uganda, standing with speakers calling for passage of the bill.

Engle tells the crowd he was “called” to encourage the Ugandan church for taking a stand for righteousness in the face of pressure from the United Nations and non-governmental aid organizations. Uganda, he says, is “ground zero.” The film also includes footage of Engle’s pro-Prop. 8 rally in California at which he warned that allowing same-sex couples to get married would unleash “sexual insanity” and a spirit “more demonic than Islam.”


ETA: http://www.thenation.com/blog/179191/its-not-just-uganda-behind-christian-rights-onslaught-africa



< Message edited by dcnovice -- 6/14/2014 1:39:37 PM >


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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 2:05:38 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

Engle tells the crowd he was “called”


Well, that ends all argument, then. Hey ho.

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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 2:27:45 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
I never said I agreed with the therapy, I said it should be up to the individual person. If for what ever reason I decide that I don't want to be gay, I don't think it is anyone else's business if I try to change that.


It is however someone else's business when somebody opens a business designed to scam you.

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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 8:48:32 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

When they ban reparative therapy, they do so because...

When they ban reparative therapy, they do so because when someone wants to change, for example because they find their same-sex attraction distressing and ego-dystonic, they want to make sure that it's against the law to assist that person, and that anyone who tries is punished.

The religionist believes that God knows best. You believe that you know best. I'm not sure which is worse, but I'm very sure that the world would benefit from fewer people who believe that they know what's best for everyone else.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/14/2014 9:21:50 PM >

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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 9:38:35 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

When they ban reparative therapy, they do so because when someone wants to change, for example because they find their same-sex attraction distressing and ego-dystonic, they want to make sure that it's against the law to assist that person, and that anyone who tries is punished.

Or maybe it's because California legislators, drawing on expert advice (below, as summarized in the law), concluded that their duty to minors* required protecting them from dubious and even harmful "treatments."

(a) Being lesbian, gay, or bisexual is not a disease, disorder, illness, deficiency, or shortcoming. The major professional associations of mental health practitioners and researchers in the United States have recognized this fact for nearly 40 years.

(b) The American Psychological Association convened a Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation. The task force conducted a systematic review of peer-reviewed journal literature on sexual orientation change efforts, and issued a report in 2009. The task force concluded that sexual orientation change efforts can pose critical health risks to lesbian, gay, and bisexual people, including confusion, depression, guilt, helplessness, hopelessness, shame, social withdrawal, suicidality, substance abuse, stress, disappointment, self-blame, decreased self-esteem and authenticity to others, increased self-hatred, hostility and blame toward parents, feelings of anger and betrayal, loss of friends and potential romantic partners, problems in sexual and emotional intimacy, sexual dysfunction, high-risk sexual behaviors, a feeling of being dehumanized and untrue to self, a loss of faith, and a sense of having wasted time and resources.

(c) The American Psychological Association issued a resolution on Appropriate Affirmative Responses to Sexual Orientation Distress and Change Efforts in 2009, which states: “[T]he [American Psychological Association] advises parents, guardians, young people, and their families to avoid sexual orientation change efforts that portray homosexuality as a mental illness or developmental disorder and to seek psychotherapy, social support, and educational services that provide accurate information on sexual orientation and sexuality, increase family and school support, and reduce rejection of sexual minority youth.”

(d) The American Psychiatric Association published a position statement in March of 2000 in which it stated:
“Psychotherapeutic modalities to convert or ‘repair’ homosexuality are based on developmental theories whose scientific validity is questionable. Furthermore, anecdotal reports of ‘cures’ are counterbalanced by anecdotal claims of psychological harm. In the last four decades, ‘reparative’ therapists have not produced any rigorous scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure. Until there is such research available, [the American Psychiatric Association] recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals’ sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm.

The potential risks of reparative therapy are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have undergone reparative therapy relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed.

Therefore, the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment such as reparative or conversion therapy which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that a patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation.”

(e) The American School Counselor Association’s position statement on professional school counselors and lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered, and questioning (LGBTQ) youth states: “It is not the role of the professional school counselor to attempt to change a student’s sexual orientation/gender identity but instead to provide support to LGBTQ students to promote student achievement and personal well-being. Recognizing that sexual orientation is not an illness and does not require treatment, professional school counselors may provide individual student planning or responsive services to LGBTQ students to promote self-acceptance, deal with social acceptance, understand issues related to coming out, including issues that families may face when a student goes through this process and identify appropriate community resources.”

(f) The American Academy of Pediatrics in 1993 published an article in its journal, Pediatrics, stating: “Therapy directed at specifically changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation.”

(g) The American Medical Association Council on Scientific Affairs prepared a report in 1994 in which it stated: “Aversion therapy (a behavioral or medical intervention which pairs unwanted behavior, in this case, homosexual behavior, with unpleasant sensations or aversive consequences) is no longer recommended for gay men and lesbians. Through psychotherapy, gay men and lesbians can become comfortable with their sexual orientation and understand the societal response to it.”

(h) The National Association of Social Workers prepared a 1997 policy statement in which it stated: “Social stigmatization of lesbian, gay and bisexual people is widespread and is a primary motivating factor in leading some people to seek sexual orientation changes. Sexual orientation conversion therapies assume that homosexual orientation is both pathological and freely chosen. No data demonstrates that reparative or conversion therapies are effective, and, in fact, they may be harmful.”

(i) The American Counseling Association Governing Council issued a position statement in April of 1999, and in it the council states: “We oppose ‘the promotion of “reparative therapy” as a “cure” for individuals who are homosexual.’”

(j) The American Psychoanalytic Association issued a position statement in June 2012 on attempts to change sexual orientation, gender, identity, or gender expression, and in it the association states: “As with any societal prejudice, bias against individuals based on actual or perceived sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression negatively affects mental health, contributing to an enduring sense of stigma and pervasive self-criticism through the internalization of such prejudice.

Psychoanalytic technique does not encompass purposeful attempts to ‘convert,’ ‘repair,’ change or shift an individual’s sexual orientation, gender identity or gender expression. Such directed efforts are against fundamental principles of psychoanalytic treatment and often result in substantial psychological pain by reinforcing damaging internalized attitudes.”

(k) The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry in 2012 published an article in its journal, Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, stating: “Clinicians should be aware that there is no evidence that sexual orientation can be altered through therapy, and that attempts to do so may be harmful. There is no empirical evidence adult homosexuality can be prevented if gender nonconforming children are influenced to be more gender conforming. Indeed, there is no medically valid basis for attempting to prevent homosexuality, which is not an illness. On the contrary, such efforts may encourage family rejection and undermine self-esteem, connectedness and caring, important protective factors against suicidal ideation and attempts. Given that there is no evidence that efforts to alter sexual orientation are effective, beneficial or necessary, and the possibility that they carry the risk of significant harm, such interventions are contraindicated.”

(l) The Pan American Health Organization, a regional office of the World Health Organization, issued a statement in May of 2012 and in it the organization states: “These supposed conversion therapies constitute a violation of the ethical principles of health care and violate human rights that are protected by international and regional agreements.” The organization also noted that reparative therapies “lack medical justification and represent a serious threat to the health and well-being of affected people.”


Source: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201120120SB1172

* To the best of my knowledge, the CA and NJ laws apply only to minors. Adults are free to seek therapy that will change them into heterosexuals, bisexuals, or even iguanas.

_____________________________

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JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 9:50:30 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

I'm very sure that the world would benefit from fewer people who believe that they know what's best for everyone else.

You may well be right.

Still, I can't help smiling, given that reparative therapy arose out of folks "knowing" what sexual orientation is best for everyone else.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 9:58:10 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

I'm very sure that the world would benefit from fewer people who believe that they know what's best for everyone else.

You may well be right.

Still, I can't help smiling, given that reparative therapy arose out of folks "knowing" what sexual orientation is best for everyone else.

Yep. Birds of a feather.

K.

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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/14/2014 11:27:00 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

Or maybe it's because California legislators, drawing on expert advice (below, as summarized in the law), concluded that their duty to minors* required protecting them from dubious and even harmful "treatments."

But it doesn't do that. The "pray away" crowd of ministers and lay religious groups aren't affected by it.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/14/2014 11:49:29 PM >

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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/15/2014 3:37:16 AM   
SadistDave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

OH! OH! OH! OH!

I KNOW! I KNOW!

[sarcasm]Since all homosexuals are all cheerful, happy people who always want to be carefree (Dare I say "gay"?) members of the LGBT community, none of them would ever want to change anyway. [/sarcasm]

Which brings me to an earlier point....

No one has yet produced any evidence that ALL homosexuals are "born that way".

Recently we had that nutjob in California who went on a killing spree because he couldn't get laid. I'm sure there must be a lot of people who can't get laid that would rather explore homosexuality than spend another night alone. That would be a slightly more sane choice than a murderous rampage ending in suicide. Are we to believe that every person who ever committed a homosexual act in prison was just deluding themselves until they hit the big house? What about the homeless and/or runaway teens who prostitute themselves to homosexuals so they can make enough money to survive because they have no education or marketable skills. It would seem that there is actually rather a lot of choice involved. Unfortunately, there are probably a lot of cases where there appears to be no choice, and people being people, there are probably quite a few who get stuck in those kinds of circumstances that would like to find a way out.

Perhaps the LGBT community would rather see people just kill themselves instead?

-SD-





This post is whacked, and it reminds me of the idiot who wrote an article in my local paper as an op ed (that I wrote a rebut of), that claimed that of course people want to be homosexual, that a man or woman can give much more pleasure to a same sex partner because, of course, they 'know what feels good'. The problem is the typical one, in that it reduces being gay to being about sexual pleasure only, that in a sense, it is like choosing between two different sex toys or something....It doesn't differentiate between a homosexual (or heterosexual) sex act and someone who is heterosexual.

What the idiots don't understand is that there isn't some magic barrier that if you are homosexual, you can't have sex with a woman (if a male), or if straight, couldn't have a homosexual encounter, that isn't what sexual orientation is about.

For example, in a BD/SM scene, a straight male sub could be told to suck off another guy, and he does so because he has been commanded to do it, rather than getting pleasure out of it. Or conversely, a male sub could be told to let another guy suck him off, he would get erect and be able to orgasm, but it is about the physical sensation, he otherwise would not seek out another man, and the sexuality was in being sub and being told what to do....

This post specifically tries to make the point that 'being gay' is having a homosexual sex act, and it is in the same vein. There is what is known as 'situational homosexuality', and it generally happens with what the poster said, where men (or women) are in a same sex environment (like the military, or jail or a british boys boarding school), and they end up having homosexual sex...but that doesn't make them gay (some of them might be gay, some might be latently bi, but most are not). The same guy who is sucking cock in jail or getting fucked (or vice versa) in the outside world woupdn't even think of it, and again, there is nothing to stop a heterosexual man from having homosexual sex acts physically. A gay guy can have sex with a woman, what gay men married to women used to do was fantasize about fucking another guy, or imaginging a guy sucking him off....

The key thing is that being gay is rooted in someone's basic nature, and there is a direct analogy to this. When you fall in love, you don't direct it, you don't sit there and say "I'll fall in love with a 5' 8" blond girl named Sally Smith", you meet Sally Smith and it clicks (or whoever). Heterosexual people don't sit there and say "I am going to love/be attracted to members of the opposite sex", they simply are and they don't choose who they are attracted to or who they fall in love with, same with gays.

To say that someone is gay because they have blue balls and there are no women is frankly one of the more idiotic statements I have seen made, not that is surprises me, because it goes along with the whole idea, especially of the religious right and down in the bible belt, that being gay is about 'lust for hot sex', that it happens because people choose to be gay because they know 'it is a hot time'.....get into a discussion about gay men, and you have some drooling idiot tell you about gay men having thousands of partners, that it is all about lust (which when you cite actual studies, that most gay people have the same number of sexual partners as straight people)...or you point out the behavior of 20 something's in bars on Friday and Saturday night, to boot.....situational homosexual acts are not being gay, being gay is who someone is attracted to and would want to have sex with, not someone they had sex with to get their rocks off in a dire situation, big difference. The analogy here is a goregous woman is horny, hasn't had sex in a while, and gets drunk and ends up in bed with a short, fat balding accountant whose idea of pillow talk is accounting standards, who normally she would not give 5 minutes to,basically someone so horny and needing of sex they would do it with anything they could.



Apparently I'm not allowed to say you're a fucking idiot, so I won't. Let's just take it as read, and try to get through your dumbfuckery as quickly as possible. I'm going to capitalize a few words so this sinks in...

Do you understand that this conversation is about CHILDREN?

CHILDREN interpret things completely differently than adults do sometimes. "Situational homosexuality" can confuse and upset CHILDREN much more deeply than it will an average adult.

CHILDREN do not come off an assembly line. They are all unique, and many of them are already pretty fucked up mentally before they even care about their sexual orientation.

CHILDREN often have difficulty making the distinction between doing something and being something. For some CHILDREN, engaging in a homosexual act is indistinguishable from homosexuality

CHILDREN do a lot of things that they regret later, just like adults. CHILDREN are not always self aware enough to know what they may or may not regret later in life, let alone in the next 5 minutes.

CHILDREN don't always try to get help when they are confused or upset about personal things. Unfortunately, CHILDREN often try to solve their problems and issues on their own with disasterous results.

Why?

Because they're CHILDREN, and CHILDREN don't all come equiped with the ability to process things that disturb them, upset them, or otherwise make them unhappy campers, and CHILDREN do not always make the decisions that you personally want them to make.

No one in this conversation is saying that any therapy will make gay CHILDREN straight. It may not even help confused or frightened straight CHILDREN who have had a homosexual experience and are quite grumpy with themselves over it. One thing is for damned sure though, and that is that by banning these types of therapies, then you pretty much guarantee that they will not improve or change in order to maybe help CHILDREN who need help that any adult is allowed to get for making the same mistakes caused by poor judgement, personal beliefs, lack of self awareness, or stupidity.

Encouraging CHILDREN to act like adults and make the same mistakes as adults when they are more likely to be confused by those mistakes is bad enough. Not allowing them access to the same sort of psychological help that adults are free to seek out is child abuse.

-SD-

_____________________________

To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/15/2014 5:21:58 AM   
SadistDave


Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
There is an editing error in my last post thats rather important. It should have indicated that no one here is saying therapy should be used to help gay children adopt a heterosexual lifestyle against their will.

-SD-


_____________________________

To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/15/2014 5:23:21 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
I never said I agreed with the therapy, I said it should be up to the individual person. If for what ever reason I decide that I don't want to be gay, I don't think it is anyone else's business if I try to change that.


It is however someone else's business when somebody opens a business designed to scam you.


People do that every day. The lottery is one of the biggest scams out there. And I must admit it's sad to see people put food back on the shelves because they can't afford both the food and their power ball ticket. Maybe we should try to outlaw that if we are really concerned that people are getting scammed.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Talk about science denial - 6/15/2014 10:33:35 AM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

No one in this conversation is saying that any therapy will make gay CHILDREN straight.

Then what's the point of reparative therapy?

ETA from the CA law:

(b) (1) “Sexual orientation change efforts” means any practices by mental health providers that seek to change an individual’s sexual orientation. This includes efforts to change behaviors or gender expressions, or to eliminate or reduce sexual or romantic attractions or feelings toward individuals of the same sex.

(2) “Sexual orientation change efforts” does not include psychotherapies that: (A) provide acceptance, support, and understanding of clients or the facilitation of clients’ coping, social support, and identity exploration and development, including sexual orientation-neutral interventions to prevent or address unlawful conduct or unsafe sexual practices; and (B) do not seek to change sexual orientation.


Also:

(o) Nothing in this act is intended to prevent a minor who is 12 years of age or older from consenting to any mental health treatment or counseling services, consistent with Section 124260 of the Health and Safety Code, other than sexual orientation change efforts as defined in this act.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201120120SB1172


< Message edited by dcnovice -- 6/15/2014 11:01:25 AM >


_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to SadistDave)
Profile   Post #: 180
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