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RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 6:27:53 AM

SadistDave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave
Liberals do the same thing. Liberals and conservatives just have different issues they believe are morally correct.

Yes liberals are human beings too and as such generally work pretty much the same way as other humans work. The difference between liberals and conservatives at this point is an endeavor to hold a morality based on reality instead of a morality based on superstition.

If that's what it takes for you to sleep at night, then keep believing it as long as you can.

-SD-

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To whom it may concern: Just because someone is in a position of authority they do not get to make up their own facts. In spite of what some people here (who shall remain nameless) want to claim, someone over the age of 18 is NOT a fucking minor!

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 201

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 6:49:44 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
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From: Sydney Australia
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You are still refusing to declare your position on the differential valuations of same- and other-gender desires. As you won't, I will. Your position is impossible without a pejorative differential valuation of same-gender desires ie it is homophobic by definition. Just as the definition of racism is applying different or double standards to people on the basis of race, homophobia is applying different or double standards to people on the basis of same-gender desires. You are defending a project that seeks to modify sexual behaviour and desires according to a model that privileges one manifestation of those diverse sexualties and behaviours - the hetero manifestation - and regards same-gender desires pejoratively. Pure textbook homophobia.

When one accords the same value to same-gender and other-gender desires, a position such as the one you defend is logically impossible and utterly incoherent. I suspect you realise this, hence your refusal to state a position on the core issue.

Freedom of choice and homophobia are mutually exclusive concepts. Your position is incoherent, precisely because you refuse to acknowledge the differential valuation that is the foundation of your position. This is another reason why it is correct and accurate to label your position as homophobic. All the fancy rhetoric about freedom of choice is just that - fancy and utterly empty rhetoric. OTOH, your refusal to acknowledge that reparative therapy against same-gender desire is ideologically driven, and cannot be anything but homophobic says everything that needs to be said about your position.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/16/2014 6:55:06 AM >

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Post #: 202

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 7:16:11 AM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave
Liberals do the same thing. Liberals and conservatives just have different issues they believe are morally correct.

Yes liberals are human beings too and as such generally work pretty much the same way as other humans work. The difference between liberals and conservatives at this point is an endeavor to hold a morality based on reality instead of a morality based on superstition.

If that's what it takes for you to sleep at night, then keep believing it as long as you can.

-SD-

Contemplate why it is that you've ended up responding with an ad hominem instead of a refutation of my position.

(in reply to SadistDave)

Post #: 203

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 7:18:37 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
You are still refusing to declare your position on the differential valuations of same- and other-gender desires.

You want him to actually argue his position instead of just trolling the opposing position....keep dreaming

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 204

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 7:29:43 AM

Extravagasm

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There was a time, when there was "voluntary" reparative strategy for light-complected minorities too. It was called passing.

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(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 205

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 7:31:57 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
You are still refusing to declare your position on the differential valuations of same- and other-gender desires.

You want him to actually argue his position instead of just trolling the opposing position....keep dreaming

Hey, a girl can dream can't she?

_____________________________

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 206

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 11:30:29 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

You are still refusing to declare your position on the differential valuations of same- and other-gender desires.

I am arguing the case on its merits, no more and no less, and the fact that you have no cogent response is painfully obvious.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

As you won't, I will. Your position is impossible without a pejorative differential valuation of same-gender desires ie it is homophobic by definition.

This is nothing but bullshit and slander.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

You are defending a project that seeks to modify sexual behaviour and desires according to a model that privileges one manifestation of those diverse sexualties and behaviours - the hetero manifestation - and regards same-gender desires pejoratively. Pure textbook homophobia.

You are making shit up wholesale and trying to pass it off as my position. An individual who is discomfited by same-sex desires is not making a statement about anybody other than himself, and neither am I making any kind of statement about anybody or anything except that discomfited individual and his right to have his feelings taken seriously and respected.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/16/2014 11:41:00 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 207

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 11:32:58 AM

vincentML

Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

You are still refusing to declare your position on the differential valuations of same- and other-gender desires. As you won't, I will. Your position is impossible without a pejorative differential valuation of same-gender desires ie it is homophobic by definition. Just as the definition of racism is applying different or double standards to people on the basis of race, homophobia is applying different or double standards to people on the basis of same-gender desires. You are defending a project that seeks to modify sexual behaviour and desires according to a model that privileges one manifestation of those diverse sexualties and behaviours - the hetero manifestation - and regards same-gender desires pejoratively. Pure textbook homophobia.

Homosexuals were so shamed and threatened by their desires back in the day they stayed in the closet or married a 'beard.' Dark black people back in the day were made to feel shame for their darkness and tried to 'lighten up.' (Michael Jackson a recent example) Reparative therapy is just a throwback to that shaming. But that old horse has escaped from the barn.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 208

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 11:36:59 AM

Kirata

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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

You are still refusing to declare your position on the differential valuations of same- and other-gender desires.

You want him to actually argue his position instead of just trolling the opposing position....keep dreaming

The purpose of the Hide function is allow people to ignore a user, not to provide gutless wonders like you a safe place to snipe from. Somebody please quote me.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/16/2014 11:41:44 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 209

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 12:00:13 PM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

You are still refusing to declare your position on the differential valuations of same- and other-gender desires.

You want him to actually argue his position instead of just trolling the opposing position....keep dreaming

The purpose of the Hide function is allow people to ignore a user, not to provide gutless wonders like you a safe place to snipe from. Somebody please quote me.

K.

I just want to know how we got from sexual preference to skin color.

< Message edited by thishereboi -- 6/16/2014 12:01:11 PM >

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(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 210

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 1:20:41 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

You are still refusing to declare your position on the differential valuations of same- and other-gender desires.

You want him to actually argue his position instead of just trolling the opposing position....keep dreaming

The purpose of the Hide function is allow people to ignore a user, not to provide gutless wonders like you a safe place to snipe from. Somebody please quote me.

K.

I just want to know how we got from sexual preference to skin color.

It is based on the notion that being gay and being black are somehow to be equated. I am sure you have seen this false equivalency before.

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Post #: 211

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 1:24:27 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

Wait a minute. So, Kirata is black and gay, or BamaD is? I can't follow the stupidity of it sometimes, down here.

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Post #: 212

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 1:39:57 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

FR

Skin color entered the discussion in post 205:

quote:

There was a time, when there was "voluntary" reparative strategy for light-complected minorities too. It was called passing.

I think that's an apt, interesting point. Others' mmv.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 213

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 1:52:12 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

quote:

It is based on the notion that being gay and being black are somehow to be equated. I am sure you have seen this false equivalency before.

I'll defer to Archbishop Tutu on this one:

A student once asked me, If I could have one wish granted to reverse an injustice, what would it be? I had to ask for two. One is for world leaders to forgive the debts of developing nations which hold them in such thrall. The other is for the world to end the persecution of people because of their sexual orientation, which is every bit as unjust as that crime against humanity, apartheid.

This is a matter of ordinary justice. We struggled against apartheid in South Africa, supported by people the world over, because black people were being blamed and made to suffer for something we could do nothing about - our very skin. It is the same with sexual orientation. It is a given. I could not have fought against the discrimination of apartheid and not also fight against the discrimination that homosexuals endure, even in our churches and faith groups.

I am proud that in South Africa, when we won the chance to build our own new constitution, the human rights of all have been explicitly enshrined in our laws. My hope is that one day this will be the case all over the world, and that all will have equal rights. For me this struggle is a seamless robe. Opposing apartheid was a matter of justice. Opposing discrimination against women is a matter of justice. Opposing discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is a matter of justice.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 214

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 5:29:45 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

It is based on the notion that being gay and being black are somehow to be equated. I am sure you have seen this false equivalency before.

This bears repeating

A student once asked me, If I could have one wish granted to reverse an injustice, what would it be? I had to ask for two. One is for world leaders to forgive the debts of developing nations which hold them in such thrall. The other is for the world to end the persecution of people because of their sexual orientation, which is every bit as unjust as that crime against humanity, apartheid.

This is a matter of ordinary justice. We struggled against apartheid in South Africa, supported by people the world over, because black people were being blamed and made to suffer for something we could do nothing about - our very skin. It is the same with sexual orientation. It is a given. I could not have fought against the discrimination of apartheid and not also fight against the discrimination that homosexuals endure, even in our churches and faith groups.

I am proud that in South Africa, when we won the chance to build our own new constitution, the human rights of all have been explicitly enshrined in our laws. My hope is that one day this will be the case all over the world, and that all will have equal rights. For me this struggle is a seamless robe. Opposing apartheid was a matter of justice. Opposing discrimination against women is a matter of justice. Opposing discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is a matter of justice.

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 215

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 5:46:33 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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ORIGINAL: Kirata

Nicholas Cummings is a past President of the American Psychological Association and was the sponsor of the resolution declaring that homosexuality is not a mental disorder. You might benefit from considering the possibility that his observations may be more informed than your own (link).

K.

The link claims (but does not substantiate) a success ratio of about 1%

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 216

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 5:47:47 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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The lottery is a stupidity tax.

Do you think people should be taxed for being stupid?

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 217

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 5:50:06 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Wait a minute. So, Kirata is black and gay, or BamaD is? I can't follow the stupidity of it sometimes, down here.

Getcher programs here getcher programs right here ....cant tell the players with out a program...getcher program right here.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 218

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 5:58:17 PM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

I just want to know how we got from sexual preference to skin color.

THB, I think you have to get used to this. One side will absolutely demand that an argument must be restricted to the subject at hand, because it suits them. The other side will bring in other contexts, because it suits *them*. Right and Left have been employing those respective strategies for aeons. What I'm saying is: you can try to assert that no comparison is valid - but don't be surprised if your logic fails to get accepted by the opposing side. The opposition sees no need to keep within the boundaries that you feel are 'the right' boundaries for the given argument.

God, I have to say, again: you may well hate lefties, THB, but your life would be so frigging miserable without them. You don't seem to have the first idea of how grim your life would be, now, were it not for them.

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Post #: 219

RE: Talk about science denial - 6/16/2014 6:01:25 PM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

It is based on the notion that being gay and being black are somehow to be equated. I am sure you have seen this false equivalency before.

It's not automatically a false equivalency, Bama. It's open to argument. So, if you feel it to be a false equivalency, please go ahead and explain why you think this.

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Post #: 220

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