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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 10:09:37 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I did, what you don't comprehend is that to have those protections you have to be part of an actual army, not a bloodthirsty terrorists. Another case of you pretending things are as you want them to be, not as they are.

Wrong!!
You don't have to be part of an army to be a PoW. Civilians can be too.
And, you have to prove that they are illegal combatants by tribunal otherwise they (an irregular force) still have protection as a PoW under GC.


Nope.
I already showed that by the rules of the 3rd GC Hamas fighters are eligible for summary execution when captured.

I don't agree that they qualify for such treatment and backed up my claim from the Rules of War.

"1874: The Brussels Protocol laid down that war should not 'inflict unnecessary suffering' upon an enemy."
"1949: Fourth Geneva Convention brings together the elements of the first three Geneva Conventions and adds rules to protect civilians during war."
"1997: Two protocols to the Geneva Convention give protection to guerrillas in civil wars or wars of national liberation."
Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/overview/rules.shtml


There are numerous laws which Israel deliberately break with impunity.
Here are some other rules that Israel purposely ignore -
Rule 7. The parties to the conflict must at all times distinguish between civilian objects and military objectives. Attacks may only be directed against military objectives. Attacks must not be directed against civilian objects.
Rule 35. Directing an attack against a zone established to shelter the wounded, the sick and civilians from the effects of hostilities is prohibited.
Rule 37. Directing an attack against a non-defended locality is prohibited.
Rule 100. No one may be convicted or sentenced, except pursuant to a fair trial affording all essential judicial guarantees.

And with regard to the blockade that Israel has employed for the last 8 years on Gaza -
Rule 53. The use of starvation of the civilian population as a method of warfare is prohibited.
Rule 55. The parties to the conflict must allow and facilitate rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian relief for civilians in need, which is impartial in character and conducted without any adverse distinction, subject to their right of control.
Rule 150. A State responsible for violations of international humanitarian law is required to make full reparation for the loss or injury caused.
[Note: Do you see Israel even attempting to make any reparation to the Palestinians??]

Source: http://www.icrc.org/eng/assets/files/other/customary-law-rules.pdf


Neither side are obeying all the rules but it does appear that Israel are certainly breaking more rules than Hamas.


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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 11:14:37 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		Good luck.

I've already tried 'splainin the absolute and fundamental requirement that actions taken in self-defence be proportionate with little success.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 11:18:13 AM   
crazyml


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Neither side are obeying all the rules but it does appear that Israel are certainly breaking more rules than Hamas.



In any event, the fact that one side doesn't obey the rules, doesn't give the other side any rights whatsoever to ignore those rules themselves.

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Profile   Post #: 323
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 11:37:16 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I did, what you don't comprehend is that to have those protections you have to be part of an actual army, not a bloodthirsty terrorists. Another case of you pretending things are as you want them to be, not as they are.

Wrong!!
You don't have to be part of an army to be a PoW. Civilians can be too.
And, you have to prove that they are illegal combatants by tribunal otherwise they (an irregular force) still have protection as a PoW under GC.


Nope.
I already showed that by the rules of the 3rd GC Hamas fighters are eligible for summary execution when captured.

I don't agree that they qualify for such treatment and backed up my claim from the Rules of War.

"1874: The Brussels Protocol laid down that war should not 'inflict unnecessary suffering' upon an enemy."
"1949: Fourth Geneva Convention brings together the elements of the first three Geneva Conventions and adds rules to protect civilians during war."
"1997: Two protocols to the Geneva Convention give protection to guerrillas in civil wars or wars of national liberation."
Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/overview/rules.shtml


There are numerous laws which Israel deliberately break with impunity.
Here are some other rules that Israel purposely ignore -
Rule 7. The parties to the conflict must at all times distinguish between civilian objects and military objectives. Attacks may only be directed against military objectives. Attacks must not be directed against civilian objects.
Rule 35. Directing an attack against a zone established to shelter the wounded, the sick and civilians from the effects of hostilities is prohibited.
Rule 37. Directing an attack against a non-defended locality is prohibited.
Rule 100. No one may be convicted or sentenced, except pursuant to a fair trial affording all essential judicial guarantees.

And with regard to the blockade that Israel has employed for the last 8 years on Gaza -
Rule 53. The use of starvation of the civilian population as a method of warfare is prohibited.
Rule 55. The parties to the conflict must allow and facilitate rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian relief for civilians in need, which is impartial in character and conducted without any adverse distinction, subject to their right of control.
Rule 150. A State responsible for violations of international humanitarian law is required to make full reparation for the loss or injury caused.
[Note: Do you see Israel even attempting to make any reparation to the Palestinians??]

Source: http://www.icrc.org/eng/assets/files/other/customary-law-rules.pdf


Neither side are obeying all the rules but it does appear that Israel are certainly breaking more rules than Hamas.


all of these rules can be negated by the actions of the target forces, for example putting a anti aircraft battery on top of a hospital negates the hospitals protection. You state that Hamas has no choice but to place their military targets in the midst of civilians but then pretend that this placement means the Israelis can't shoot back. If someone were firing rockets into your neighborhood how much would you care if there was a hospital nest to the battery?

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 12:43:29 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Good luck.

I've already tried 'splainin the absolute and fundamental requirement that actions taken in self-defence be proportionate with little success.

Yeah, I know.
Several of us have tried.

The problem is, the likes of DK seem to think that Israel have a fundamental right to slaughter Palestinians with impunity - as per IDF propaganda.


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Neither side are obeying all the rules but it does appear that Israel are certainly breaking more rules than Hamas.

In any event, the fact that one side doesn't obey the rules, doesn't give the other side any rights whatsoever to ignore those rules themselves.

I quite agree.
DK seems to think otherwise.




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Profile   Post #: 325
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 12:53:49 PM   
mnottertail


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Selah

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Profile   Post #: 326
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 12:57:02 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
all of these rules can be negated by the actions of the target forces,

Not always.
There are rules that intrinsically overule this philosophy.
Rules 7 & 35 (amongst many others) supercede/overrule negation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
for example putting a anti aircraft battery on top of a hospital negates the hospitals protection.

No it doesn't.
Try reading the Rules of War and the GC (not just the 3rd one).

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
You state that Hamas has no choice but to place their military targets in the midst of civilians but then pretend that this placement means the Israelis can't shoot back.

No. I stated that the attackers must NOT attack civilians - which Israel do a lot of.
And, as previously stated, the GC specifically state you aren't allowed to.
There is no ambiguity or exceptions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
If someone were firing rockets into your neighborhood how much would you care if there was a hospital nest to the battery?

Interesting.

So how do you explain Israeli retaliation yesterday??
Hamas fired a rocket that landed in the school yard of an empty school. Nobody was killed or injured.
Israel retaliated with a full-blown air attack killing dozens of innocent civilians (including children) and it wasn't where the rocket was fired from.
On top of that, they bombarded a civilian housing area near the border with artillery that Hamas did NOT occupy and then bull-dozed the houses of hundreds of innocent civilians.
The Israeli response was well out of proportion and broke more rules than the original Hamas rocket.
[Side note: Israel finally admitted to shelling several UN 'protected' areas earlier this morning]


I'm not on either side - I think both need their heads banging together - with a wrecking ball.
What I'm illustrating is that the Israeli's are breaking a shit-load more rules than Hamas and the IDF are killing waay more civilians than can be justified.


As I commented earlier, the Americans seem to swallow the Israeli/IDF propaganda as gospel and find ways to point and accuse Hamas of all sorts of wrongs (many of which have been debunked by reporters on the ground). I understand why but it still doesn't mean Israel is carte-blanche right and Hamas is completely wrong. What's worse is they frequently regurgitate the same PR shit to justify their comments.
Those of us outside the US see slightly less biased reports, or reports with a lot less political spin, and can see both sides doing wrong.


< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 7/28/2014 1:10:37 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 327
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 2:20:39 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
I did, what you don't comprehend is that to have those protections you have to be part of an actual army, not a bloodthirsty terrorists. Another case of you pretending things are as you want them to be, not as they are.

Wrong!!
You don't have to be part of an army to be a PoW. Civilians can be too.
And, you have to prove that they are illegal combatants by tribunal otherwise they (an irregular force) still have protection as a PoW under GC.


Nope.
I already showed that by the rules of the 3rd GC Hamas fighters are eligible for summary execution when captured.

I don't agree that they qualify for such treatment and backed up my claim from the Rules of War.

I couldn't care less whether you agree. I care what the Geneva Conventions say. And they say shoot them in the head.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl/WebART/375-590007?OpenDocument
To gain POW status and not be treated as a spy or terrorist they must fulfill these conditions:
that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates
that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
that of carrying arms openly
that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

Hamas fails every single one of those conditions (note they have to meet all 4 not just one). So they are not POW's when captured. Anything beyond summary execution is Israeli kindness.

As to the rest Israel would be foolish to open the borders to a genocidal enemy that exists solely to destroy it.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 7/28/2014 2:25:50 PM >

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 2:22:59 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Good luck.

I've already tried 'splainin the absolute and fundamental requirement that actions taken in self-defence be proportionate with little success.

That's because there is no such requirement. Did the US violate the rule when it nuked Japan? Japan had done nothing to deserve anything proportionate to that. We've been accused of many things over that but never that because that rule only applies to preemptive self defense!

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Profile   Post #: 329
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 2:30:48 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I couldn't care less whether you agree. I care what the Geneva Conventions say. And they say shoot them in the head.

Nope.

Try reading the 4th GC and the amendments since that little snippet you are soo dogmatically quoting.
What you are quoting is outdated and has since been superceeded

"1997: Two protocols to the Geneva Convention give protection to guerrillas in civil wars or wars of national liberation."


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George Orwell, 1903-1950


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 330
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 2:35:59 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I couldn't care less whether you agree. I care what the Geneva Conventions say. And they say shoot them in the head.

Nope.

Try reading the 4th GC and the amendments since that little snippet you are soo dogmatically quoting.
What you are quoting is outdated and has since been superceeded

"1997: Two protocols to the Geneva Convention give protection to guerrillas in civil wars or wars of national liberation."


If they fulfill the 4 requirements listed. I quoted you the exact article from the treaty and linked it for you. Go read it for yourself if you refuse to believe me. I used the ICRC site. There are numerous other sources if you don't trust them.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 2:41:18 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Good luck.

I've already tried 'splainin the absolute and fundamental requirement that actions taken in self-defence be proportionate with little success.

That's because there is no such requirement. Did the US violate the rule when it nuked Japan? Japan had done nothing to deserve anything proportionate to that. We've been accused of many things over that but never that because that rule only applies to preemptive self defense!

I think they did - but only by today's newer rules.
I don't think such rules were properly defined in those days and I also believe that many rules have been drafted since those days (and the Vietnam War) as a direct result of those conflicts.

If the US did such heinous things these days they would indeed be hauled up before the ICC for war crimes.
Much like the Germans (in both WWI & WWII) would be facing the ICC for their mustard gas attacks.

Many amendments and additions have been made in recent decades as technology and situations evolve.


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George Orwell, 1903-1950


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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 2:44:24 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Good luck.

I've already tried 'splainin the absolute and fundamental requirement that actions taken in self-defence be proportionate with little success.

That's because there is no such requirement. Did the US violate the rule when it nuked Japan? Japan had done nothing to deserve anything proportionate to that. We've been accused of many things over that but never that because that rule only applies to preemptive self defense!

I think they did - but only by today's newer rules.
I don't think such rules were properly defined in those days and I also believe that many rules have been drafted since those days (and the Vietnam War) as a direct result of those conflicts.

If the US did such heinous things these days they would indeed be hauled up before the ICC for war crimes.
Much like the Germans (in both WWI & WWII) would be facing the ICC for their mustard gas attacks.

Many amendments and additions have been made in recent decades as technology and situations evolve.


The rule he is talking about dates to the first half of the 19th century!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_test
Are you done making shit up?

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Profile   Post #: 333
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 2:49:37 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
I couldn't care less whether you agree. I care what the Geneva Conventions say. And they say shoot them in the head.

Nope.

Try reading the 4th GC and the amendments since that little snippet you are soo dogmatically quoting.
What you are quoting is outdated and has since been superceeded

"1997: Two protocols to the Geneva Convention give protection to guerrillas in civil wars or wars of national liberation."


If they fulfill the 4 requirements listed. I quoted you the exact article from the treaty and linked it for you. Go read it for yourself if you refuse to believe me. I used the ICRC site. There are numerous other sources if you don't trust them.


That is not a prerequisite to the 4th (and 5th) GC as well as what has been agreed in The Rules of War.
The ICRC is a humanitarian site and the 3rd GC is quite outdated now.

I have looked at various sites and several definitions -some of which I quoted and linked to.
Nowhere, except the (outdated) 3rd CG states that all 4 requirements must be fulfilled to qualify.
One of the later additions (1997) of the GC specifically states that guerrillas are now afforded PoW status.

If you're gonna quote laws and regulations, at least make sure they are up to date facts!


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(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 334
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 2:53:08 PM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Good luck.

I've already tried 'splainin the absolute and fundamental requirement that actions taken in self-defence be proportionate with little success.

That's because there is no such requirement. Did the US violate the rule when it nuked Japan? Japan had done nothing to deserve anything proportionate to that. We've been accused of many things over that but never that because that rule only applies to preemptive self defense!

I think they did - but only by today's newer rules.
I don't think such rules were properly defined in those days and I also believe that many rules have been drafted since those days (and the Vietnam War) as a direct result of those conflicts.

If the US did such heinous things these days they would indeed be hauled up before the ICC for war crimes.
Much like the Germans (in both WWI & WWII) would be facing the ICC for their mustard gas attacks.

Many amendments and additions have been made in recent decades as technology and situations evolve.


The rule he is talking about dates to the first half of the 19th century!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_test
Are you done making shit up?

Nope.

FYI I hadn't heard of the Caroline test until I read this thread.
That rule has been included in newer GC directives and does NOT only apply to pre-emptive strikes.


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George Orwell, 1903-1950


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Profile   Post #: 335
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 3:27:08 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Nope.

FYI I hadn't heard of the Caroline test until I read this thread.
That rule has been included in newer GC directives and does NOT only apply to pre-emptive strikes.


The Geneva Conventions have nothing to do with how nations shoot at each other! They are strictly about how people are treated. You really should know what you are talking about.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 3:32:24 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Nope.

FYI I hadn't heard of the Caroline test until I read this thread.
That rule has been included in newer GC directives and does NOT only apply to pre-emptive strikes.


The Geneva Conventions have nothing to do with how nations shoot at each other! They are strictly about how people are treated. You really should know what you are talking about.


Now you are getting it Ken.... Strictly about how people are treated........ Nothing in the conventions gives the IDF Carte Blanche to shell hospitals, schools and refugee camps etc etc.

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Profile   Post #: 337
RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 3:37:07 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Nope.

FYI I hadn't heard of the Caroline test until I read this thread.
That rule has been included in newer GC directives and does NOT only apply to pre-emptive strikes.


The Geneva Conventions have nothing to do with how nations shoot at each other! They are strictly about how people are treated. You really should know what you are talking about.


Now you are getting it Ken.... Strictly about how people are treated........ Nothing in the conventions gives the IDF Carte Blanche to shell hospitals, schools and refugee camps etc etc.


Yes, they do actually. Read them in combination with the UN charter. Israel has the absolute right to self defense. And by the 3rd GC Hamas is the guilty party for trying to use civilians to shield its military actions. Therefore, again by the black letter of the 3rd GC, Israel can take what ever steps they deem necessary in pursuit of the enemy. You see once Hamas attacks Israel from inside the civilian areas of Gaza they strip the civilians of the protections of the 3rd GC because it does not trump other international law which always gives Israel the right to defend itself.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 3:57:20 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

And by the 3rd GC Hamas is the guilty party for trying to use civilians to shield its military actions.


But that isn't happening, Ken. It's just a load of Israeli dogshit propaganda. There's no corroborated evidence of this. Furthermore, it's next to impossible to imagine how the Israelis could possibly come by the intelligence of it, either. Jesus, the guff that Israel is pumping out can't stand up to even a minute's interrogation. It's utter bollocks.

Come on - you can generally see through this kind of thing. You don't generally lap up every piece of right wing propaganda that's fed to you. Why do you come over all sponge-like when it comes to the subject of Israel and Palestine?

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 7/28/2014 3:58:19 PM >

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 7/28/2014 3:57:47 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		So show me one destroyed rocket launcher found in a hospital in the recent fighting.

This all kicked off with the recent kidnappings and murders, none of which took place in Gaza. Hamas were blamed by Israel despite it being known others were to blame. One has to wonder why.

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Profile   Post #: 340
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