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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 4:20:18 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Another important similarity is this:For 25 years the British Govt refused to negotiate with the IRA as it claimed the IRA were "terrorists". So there was 25 years of war. Within a year or two of the British Govt opening negotiations with the IRA, there was peace and a power sharing agreement that brought the IRA into the democratic process. The IRA eventually and voluntarily disarmed itself. There is an obvious lesson here for the parties to the Palestine-Zionist conflict.


Hi Tweakable. This is also incorrect. Although the public facade of British Governments was "We dont talk with terrorists" many Prime ministers had indeed opened channels with the IRA for such purposes. Thatcher was one but any such talks were always denied. The peace protest didnt really gain momentum until 1988 when the Protestant SDLP and the Catholic Sinn Fein started direct talks, the peace agreement wasnt declared until ten years later. Yes here we are some 18 years on with dissidents still trying to disrupt the process. Thankfully the majority have turned their backs on violence. You are right about the obvious lesson to be learned from the situation between Catholics and Protestants.

Crazy....... I know the subject Northern ireland is slightly off topic but it clearly shows one thing. In answer to your question their wont be any peace until both sides start serious and lasting negotiations. All the current round of violence has achieved is a hardening of attitudes on both sides.


Uhmmm ... no Polite, someone is wrong but it's not me. For example the SDLP was not a "Protestant" party at all. According to wiki:
"The SDLP is also an Irish nationalist party.[5][4][6] Its basic party platform advocates Irish unification, [...]. During the Troubles, the SDLP was the most popular Irish nationalist party in Northern Ireland.."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDLP
However you are correct to assert that there was brief intermittent contact between the British Govt and the IRA a few times over the years but nothing come of it. Progress was made only when regular and substantive negotiations began, a process that ultimately led to the Good Friday agreement.

I'm glad we agree on the main point, which is that talking must happen between the warring parties for peace to occur and for peace to last. I'm glad that we also agree that this lesson can be applied directly to the Palestine-Zionist conflict.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 5:10:54 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

FR

The topic of the thread is "The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault..."

Nearly every supporter of Israel has acknowledged that Israel has some some pretty bad things, and nearly every supporter of the Palestinians has acknowledged that they have done some pretty bad things.

But I do have a very strong sense that the positions are somewhat entrenched. (Yeah, I'm really good at picking up "nuance").

But it's also a pretty pointless question. Surely the question we should be asking is "How do we bring about a situation that enables the different actors in this conflict to come to a lasting settlement?"

I don't have the faintest hope that this suggestion will be taken up by anyone, but I'm going to pose it as a challenge.

The challenge:

If you've been strongly supporting one side or the other on this thread, I challenge you to set aside 30 minutes (no more than that). Just before the 30 minutes begins, you have to set aside your support for the side you've been backing, and then spend 30 minutes arguing the point from the other side. In the first 10 minutes, ague it from the perspective of a statesman (or a leader), for the second argue it from the perspective of a grandfather or grand mother, and for the last 10 minutes argue it from the perspective of a 19 year old.



I don't need 30 mins at all.

*IF* and when Israel lift the blockade enough for Palestine to start having a working environment/economy without getting their homes and work places eviscerated and raised to the ground, there just might be some success in the peace talks.

No doubt that Hamas will take advantage of the situation, but Israel will also do the same and worse.
You have to treat this like a pair of 2yo kids fighting over a posession.


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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 5:52:08 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
When a group such as the IDF is dedicated to the destruction, not just the overthrow of the government, of a nation they don't even live in and the extermination of everyone living there it's easy, there is no way to describe them but terrorists.

You really wrote that? Even parroting someone else you wrote that? On what planet did you think that would ever be acceptable?

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 5:56:33 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

I thought Michael Collins had a little bit to do with that decision


Hiyas mike, nice to see you posting again!
Yes Collins one of the leaders of the IRA in War of Independence in Ireland, 1918-21 which led to the formation of the Irish Free State and Northern Ireland and eventually to the Republic of Ireland (est 1949) and the mess in the north.

For me, one of the main relevancies of the Irish situation to Palestine is the different strategy and tactics used by the British Army in an urban counter insurgency campaign, which largely avoided creating civilian casualties en masse. The contrast between that successful campaign and the failed strategy Israel has adopted in Palestine (see the Dahiya doctrine) which sets out to deliberately terrorise the civilian population into submission couldn't be starker. Just look at the casualty figures - 1500+ dead Palestinians, (with most estimates putting 75-80% of those civilians) in less than a month compared to 3-4,000 total (on all sides) in over 25 years of war in Ireland.

Another important similarity is this:For 25 years the British Govt refused to negotiate with the IRA as it claimed the IRA were "terrorists". So there was 25 years of war. Within a year or two of the British Govt opening negotiations with the IRA, there was peace and a power sharing agreement that brought the IRA into the democratic process. The IRA eventually and voluntarily disarmed itself. There is an obvious lesson here for the parties to the Palestine-Zionist conflict.

And Israel tried years of negotiating with the PLO. It failed miserably. They gave the PLO concession after concession but got nothing in return. The PLO literally fulfilled not a single one of the conditions of Oslo despite getting Gaza and most of the West Bank. And here you pretending that Israel is entirely at fault and has never tried negotiating with the terrorists who are dedicated to killing them.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 6:08:13 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Crazy....... I know the subject Northern ireland is slightly off topic but it clearly shows one thing. In answer to your question their wont be any peace until both sides start serious and lasting negotiations. All the current round of violence has achieved is a hardening of attitudes on both sides.


Actually fundamentally NI has nothing in common with Israel/Palestine.
In NI the IRA was responsive to the people. In 1972 when the Provisionals kidnapped and killed a Derry man home on leave from the British Army it outraged the people so much it forced the IRA bring down the barricades and let the police back into Free Derry.
Can you imagine any such incident happening with Hamas?

< Message edited by DomKen -- 8/2/2014 6:09:36 AM >

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 6:33:03 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
When a group such as the IDF is dedicated to the destruction, not just the overthrow of the government, of a nation they don't even live in and the extermination of everyone living there it's easy, there is no way to describe them but terrorists.

You really wrote that? Even parroting someone else you wrote that? On what planet did you think that would ever be acceptable?


I look at this in two ways. First: they're terrorising the people of Gaza - much more, I'd bet, than the Gazans are terrorising the Israelis. On that basis alone the word 'terrorists' fits very well indeed. Second: the word 'terrorism' is garbage, whoever uses it and to whomever it's applied. It's just a term employed by those who want to write a story about 'legitimate government' versus 'mad evil killers' - just as, for instance, Assad continues to use it against the enemies of his loathsome regime, despite the fact that the rest of the world describes the situation in Syria as one of 'civil war'.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 6:48:28 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
When a group such as the IDF is dedicated to the destruction, not just the overthrow of the government, of a nation they don't even live in and the extermination of everyone living there it's easy, there is no way to describe them but terrorists.

You really wrote that? Even parroting someone else you wrote that? On what planet did you think that would ever be acceptable?


I look at this in two ways. First: they're terrorising the people of Gaza - much more, I'd bet, than the Gazans are terrorising the Israelis. On that basis alone the word 'terrorists' fits very well indeed. Second: the word 'terrorism' is garbage, whoever uses it and to whomever it's applied. It's just a term employed by those who want to write a story about 'legitimate government' versus 'mad evil killers' - just as, for instance, Assad continues to use it against the enemies of his loathsome regime, despite the fact that the rest of the world describes the situation in Syria as one of 'civil war'.

Try reading it again. Read the bolded word carefully. Think about what saying Jews are doing that means.

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 6:51:22 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
When a group such as the IDF is dedicated to the destruction, not just the overthrow of the government, of a nation they don't even live in and the extermination of everyone living there it's easy, there is no way to describe them but terrorists.

You really wrote that? Even parroting someone else you wrote that? On what planet did you think that would ever be acceptable?

I am going to be far kinder to you than a hate-driven moron like you deserves and assume you haven't read BamaD's post preceding mine.

You obviously haven't heard of a Head of State here on this planet labelling Israel a "terrorist State".
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/30/bolivia-israel-terrorist-state/13384989/

And the challenge laid out in post#537 is open to you as well:
Most definitions of terrorism are something along the lines of 'Terrorism is the use of violence targeting civilians for political purposes'. If we can agree on that definition can you explain to me how the Dahiya doctrine, which the IDF is obviously employing in Gaza now can be any thing other than terrorism?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/2/2014 6:54:03 AM >

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 6:57:28 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
When a group such as the IDF is dedicated to the destruction, not just the overthrow of the government, of a nation they don't even live in and the extermination of everyone living there it's easy, there is no way to describe them but terrorists.

You really wrote that? Even parroting someone else you wrote that? On what planet did you think that would ever be acceptable?

I am going to be far kinder to you than a hate-driven moron like you deserves and assume you haven't read BamaD's post preceding mine.

I hate no one but people who kill just to kill. Unlike you.

Do you or do you not retract that terrible defamation of the Jewish people?

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 7:33:00 AM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		I said nothing about the Jewish people. Nada. Niente.

I made a comment about the IDF - the Israeli Defence Forces. It is only the sick mind of a racist who equates an entire race of people with an army composed of many races that can make this false equivalence and connect the two. You are delusional.

And that is the end of this conversation.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 8/2/2014 7:37:26 AM >

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 7:34:33 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
The challenge:

If you've been strongly supporting one side or the other on this thread, I challenge you to set aside 30 minutes (no more than that). Just before the 30 minutes begins, you have to set aside your support for the side you've been backing, and then spend 30 minutes arguing the point from the other side. In the first 10 minutes, ague it from the perspective of a statesman (or a leader), for the second argue it from the perspective of a grandfather or grand mother, and for the last 10 minutes argue it from the perspective of a 19 year old.


I'm not sure if I take one side or the other, but I suppose I'm on the U.S. side more than anything else. I think the U.S. government should do what's best for its own people, just as I would expect other national governments to do the same. I think the main problem for America is that we've been taking sides in a conflict which isn't really our fight.

In comparison to Northern Ireland, I don't think we ever really took sides in that matter (although I may be wrong). In fact, we usually seem to take a neutral stance on these kinds of conflicts. I don't think we ever took much of a position on the Basque separatists or the Oaxacan rebels either. We did balk about the Soviet annexation of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia, but it's not like we actually did anything about it. Same thing with Tibet, although they've gotten a few celebrity sympathizers. There are actually quite a number of ethnic/religious conflicts around the world - some dormant, some active.

But one hardly sees the same level of passion or outrage as one sees in the debate over the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Even the U.S. government seems far more interested in this conflict than any of the others.

So, I wonder: What is it about this conflict which makes it more interesting or more compelling to take a side than any of the others?



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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 7:55:08 AM   
subrob1967


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Status: offline 		Oil, the region supplies a shitload of oil to the world Zonie.






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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 7:58:31 AM   
Sanity


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Status: offline 		And then later, half way again, and then again, and again. Thats how compromising with radicals works...

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 8:07:18 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
So, I wonder: What is it about this conflict which makes it more interesting or more compelling to take a side than any of the others?

Good question Zonie!

In this conflict, more than any other, we have a 'western' civilized country with a full army and nuclear capability in a conflict with what many deem as 'terrorists'. The problem is, the 'civilized' nation is slowly annihilating the civilians and strangling the economy of a country trying to get on it's feet whilst fighting the oppressors of it's own territory.
It is not similar to any other conflict because one country is stamping all over the other - with almost complete impunity because it is backed by a super-power (the US).
And unlike any other conflict, this isn't a country trying to eliminate a struggle from within it's own borders but actually (and deliberately) targeting another country.
Israel call it 'defense'. When you go on the offensive and deliberately target civilians, it is no longer defense but an offense.

The key issue here is that that US is wholly backing Israel and ignoring human atrocities.
The world beyond the US sees the problem differently - including the UN.



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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 8:14:50 AM   
Sanity


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Status: offline 		Israel is just supposed to let Hamas pound them with rockets yada yada yada

We've heard it all before

How many Israeli citizens would be dead if the rockets worked

Even Barack is getting pissed off at Hamas' insane behavior

quote:

The Obama administration on Friday condemned "outrageous" violations of an internationally brokered Gaza cease-fire by Palestinian militants and called the apparent abduction of an Israeli soldier a "barbaric" action.The strong reaction came as top Israeli officials questioned the effort to forge the truce, accusing the U.S. and the United Nations of being naive in assuming the radical Hamas movement would adhere with its terms. The officials also blamed the Gulf state of Qatar for not forcing the militants to comply.[

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 8:30:03 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Israel is just supposed to let Hamas pound them with rockets yada yada yada

We've heard it all before

How many Israeli citizens would be dead if the rockets worked

Even Barack is getting pissed off at Hamas' insane behavior


Insane behaviour, yes.
Why?? because the fucking Israeli's are strangling the economy and deliberately pounding the fuck out of the Palestinian civilians!!

Even the mad fuckers of Hamas aren't doing that heinous shit!!

Sheesh! It really ain't rocket science.



You are sooo swallowing the Israeli PR crap.
Open your eyes to the real war crimes!!


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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 8:32:55 AM   
Sanity


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ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Sheesh! It really ain't rocket science.



Yeah it is



< Message edited by Sanity -- 8/2/2014 8:33:28 AM >

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 8:37:49 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Sheesh! It really ain't rocket science.



Yeah it is



**YAWN**

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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 8:54:51 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

**YAWN**


Of course you yawn, knowing that those rockets are aimed at civilians

Its just like Hamas apologists to disregard any facts that are inconvenient to the terrorist cause



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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 8/2/2014 9:53:24 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

I said nothing about the Jewish people. Nada. Niente.

I made a comment about the IDF - the Israeli Defence Forces. It is only the sick mind of a racist who equates an entire race of people with an army composed of many races that can make this false equivalence and connect the two. You are delusional.

And that is the end of this conversation.

So you have twice shown you bigotry and failed to retract the nastiness of your comments. Does anyone need anymore proof that this poster is not just pro Hamas but actually an anti Semite?

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