crazyml
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Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: subrosaDom
Most often you are correct, but not in this case. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of Islam, jihad, taqiyya (religiously-justified dissimulation, which is why the English-language speeches of Hamas and others are entirely contradicted by their Arabic language speeches (look up MEMRI on the the web and watch actual translations of the speeches in Arabic)), etc. as opposed to Protestantism and Catholicism. Protestants and Catholics do not "love death as much as you love life." But Islam does. Bin Laden, Hamas and numerous other imams have repeated this, because it is true. Islam is a political movement that uses religion to achieve purely political objectives -- the establishment of a worldwide caliphate (see ISIS and their own statements). You are understandably applying your own experiences with normal religions and projecting those interpretations onto Islam. You would have more luck projecting them onto Scientology. Scientologists, after all, do not send suicide bombers out; they do not send planes into buildings; they do not call for the death of infidels (everyone else); they do not call for the execution of gays (although they certainly hide them well). This is not a defense of Scientology, incidentally -- it is to take an absurd, stupid religion and money-making machine and contrast it with something that is absolutely evil -- Islam. So, yes, this is a fight over religious beliefs -- not so much on the point of most of the Jews (very conservative ones excepted), but absolutely, positively on the behalf of the Muslims.
It is an error many of us make -- to project our own values and worldview onto others and to assume they hold that. But the Muslims don't hold that. They are virulently anti-Semitic; many of them admire the Nazis; their charters call for the extermination/genocide of the Jews and Israel (but taking everyone else with them wouldn't bother them either); they use human shields; they dissimulate; and they are willing and eager to die. They win every time anyone, even with good intentions, imputes to them even a semi-decent motive.
I don't think that your understanding of Islam is a great deal better.
Firstly, it's a nonsense to argue that there is a single "Islam". You cannot make statements about muslims like "they are virulently anti-Semitic; many of them admire the Nazis" without making it clear that you've a weak grasp on Islam.
I'm not saying that there aren't very powerful threads of anti-semitism running through Islam, and I'm not denying the horrid calls to genocide that many fundamentalist Islamic groups regularly make, but it is simply foolish to say "Islam = X" with such a broad brush.
All of these fundamentalist sects rely on recruitment - They rely on persuading Imams to do their PR for them, and the successful ones attract Imams who are able to sell the ideology. The whole process of radicalization is extremely sophisticated, and highlights something that the Israelis and their client state supporters (like the USA) seem to completely miss.
Every time Israel uses its overwhelming power to destroy a school - under whatever pretext - it creates more sales collateral for the radicalizers. Every time a nation like the USA is seen to be supporting or acting as an apologist for Israel, it creates more sales collateral for the radicalizers.
The actions of the IDF make Israel's future less certain, not more so. The actions of the USA in its tacit support for illegal settlement (and despite the USA's cheap words about the fact that "settlements on disputed lands not being constructive" there is no other way the USA's action in blocking - and on many occasions being the only SC member to do so - dozens of UN resolutions can be construed) make America's position in the world less secure.
This blunder is based on a deep misunderstanding of Islam, and of people.
Instead of bombing schools and hospitals, Israel should be building schools and hospitals. [ETA] - This may have been done a few times, but certainly not with the same commitment and vigour with which Israel pursues the losing strategy of violence.
Instead of destroying tunnels (which, by the way are mostly used for transporting goods ranging from medicines to cosmetics that cannot come across the border any other way rather than for smuggling weapons) Israel should open the borders. By opening the borders Israel can eliminate one of the biggest causes of animosity on one hand, get a much better idea of what is crossing the border on the other, and render the tunnels completely inexcusable.
Instead of perverting the UN by using it's bitch to block UN resolutions, Israel should abide by UN resolutions, which means handing back the illegally occupied territories, including occupied Jerusalem.
If they have the foresight to do these things, the arguments made by the radicalizers are weakened, faith in international institutions is strengthened, and Israel's future existence is made more certain.
The current strategy, which no-one can rationally deny is one of "let's fight terrorism with terror" is a losing strategy, and it is one that if it continues will certainly result in the destruction of Israel, the radicalization of more young men and women, and will ultimately cause great harm to the power and security of the USA.
If a person wants to understand this conflict, you need to forget for a minute about the charters of the fundamentalist groups, and the nasty ideologies of some of the more radical sects and ask yourself.... How would a 19 year old man or woman (in an age of facebook, twitter and mobile phones) turn from being an integrated, successful, functional member of a western society into someone willing to give up their life for jihad?
Ask yourself .... how are these people radicalized?
Are they persuaded of the need to kill all Jews first, or are they shown pictures of dead Palestinian babies first?
[ETA - the rest of an unfinished sentence, and a comment on the building of schools and hospitals'
< Message edited by crazyml -- 8/4/2014 3:32:12 AM >
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RE: The current middle eastern crisis is Israels fault... - 
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