RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 10:55:23 AM)

So are you going to enlighten us with your experiences in military training, Peon? I'm sure you'd be baffled by a tractor, too.



Gauge -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 11:06:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I understand efforts are underway to change the culture these days, Sanity, but speaking from my own experience, a great deal of the US military mission can be carried out by troops with serious hangovers, too.

I'm not sure why the libbish sorts are having trouble with the concept. Gearing the world to the lowest common denominator is a core practice for them.



A core practice for liberals? Seriously? Come on, you should be able to understand that the majority of mass media is geared so a 5th grader can understand it. This includes the liberal and conservative bullshit spewing outlets, and both are equally worthless. The fucked up part about it is that the people digest this shit then vomit out the resultant tripe, and simply believe everything that is reported and they have forgotten one aspect of human reasoning: Critical Thinking. This is why we keep shitting all over each other instead of coming together to affect change, real, meaningful change.

As far as the topic goes, no matter who did what and who supplied the weapon used, this situation has the potential to get out of hand quickly. That is not to say that it hasn't been there for awhile but now the World is getting a little pissed off. The war machine, sadly, is working just fine.




ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 11:07:26 AM)

Edited to remove my foot from my mouth. ;)



TheHeretic -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 11:17:16 AM)

We can completely agree with your comments on the topic, Gauge.

I'm sticking by the swat at the low hanging fruit, though.



PeonForHer -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 11:25:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

So are you going to enlighten us with your experiences in military training, Peon? I'm sure you'd be baffled by a tractor, too.



Some day you might just realise that no matter how much sneering derision you put into a response, TH, it still doesn't amount to a proper refutation of an argument. Stop being an arse. I used your own link, and pointed to a specific point in a video on the page to which you'd linked. And as for taking your 'argument from authority', in this case on the basis of your superior military experience - that only works if you have a reputation for not pumping out biased bullshit.. Your own rep in that regard is not stellar, I'm afraid.



PeonForHer -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 11:29:34 AM)


Here's a link to a video showing the BUK being operated, TWW, as kindly provided by TheHeretic

http://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/tehnika-pvo/75-zenitniy-raketniy-kompleks-buk

If so, at 1:03, you can see the BUK being operated (though whether it's the relevant model, I don't know). There are screens to monitor and buttons and dials galore to press and turn.

Now, to me, that looks complicated. Well, see what you think.



ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 11:40:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


Here's a link to a video showing the BUK being operated, TWW, as kindly provided by TheHeretic

http://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/tehnika-pvo/75-zenitniy-raketniy-kompleks-buk

If so, at 1:03, you can see the BUK being operated (though whether it's the relevant model, I don't know). There are screens to monitor and buttons and dials galore to press and turn.

Now, to me, that looks complicated. Well, see what you think.



Ok, I'll have to agree with you there. All the missile systems I've trained with were the man-portable variety, and none were SAMs, which I did point out in my first post. (Well, I did have training on Bradley mounted TOWS.) I was commenting on those man-portable systems, I should have checked out the SA-11 closer first.



TheHeretic -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 11:56:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Now, to me, that looks complicated. Well, see what you think.



I think you should take a glance at the picture, Peon, and tell us how to engage the secondary PTO. I think you would be equally lost in either one. If you needed to though, I wonder how you might do picking up the manual, and puzzling the shit out.



[image]local://upfiles/409734/0919221CDE86440FAE225BE98B966DDF.jpg[/image]



TheHeretic -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 12:01:58 PM)

Have your look-see? Did it occur to you that you might want to figure out how to steer the damn thing, before worrying about turning on the attachments?



PeonForHer -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 12:55:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Now, to me, that looks complicated. Well, see what you think.



I think you should take a glance at the picture, Peon, and tell us how to engage the secondary PTO. I think you would be equally lost in either one. If you needed to though, I wonder how you might do picking up the manual, and puzzling the shit out.



[image]local://upfiles/409734/0919221CDE86440FAE225BE98B966DDF.jpg[/image]


What point are you trying to make, TH? I've said that Buk looks complicated to use. Are you suggesting that other bits of technology are also complicated? If so, then consider yourself has having successfully conveyed that point to me.



thompsonx -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 1:31:12 PM)

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I think you should take a glance at the picture, Peon, and tell us how to engage the secondary PTO. I think you would be equally lost in either one. If you needed to though, I wonder how you might do picking up the manual, and puzzling the shit out.


Dick the dumb
things you say.
First you tell us that this device was designed to be operated by a drunk russian soldier. Now you are saying that peon sober is not as smart as a drunk russian soldier which begs the question: if a drunk conscript is smarter than a sober university grad that would have to mean that the average russian conscript is a mother fucking genius when sober[8|]





TheHeretic -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 2:39:14 PM)

That's a tractor, Peon.

Now considering what that Buk is intended to do, 1:03 in the video didn't look all that difficult to me at all. The technology and engineering that went into building it are extremely complicated, I'm sure, but the guys at the console aren't calculating the missile trajectory. Simplicity of operation is prized in Russian weapons. Raise the radar tower, run the cables to the command vehicle and launchers, flip the switch and fire the rocket. These are the folks who built an assault rifle you can take apart wearing mittens.




PeonForHer -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 3:10:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

That's a tractor, Peon.

Now considering what that Buk is intended to do, 1:03 in the video didn't look all that difficult to me at all. The technology and engineering that went into building it are extremely complicated, I'm sure, but the guys at the console aren't calculating the missile trajectory. Simplicity of operation is prized in Russian weapons. Raise the radar tower, run the cables to the command vehicle and launchers, flip the switch and fire the rocket. These are the folks who built an assault rifle you can take apart wearing mittens.



Yes, thank you for observing that it's a tractor, TH. I'm aware of the philosophy behind Comrade Kalashnikov's AK47, too, and how that meshed with the prevailing view of military hardware in the USSR and still, today, in Russia.


I'm still wondering what your point is. The operation of that looked complicated to me, a non military man. It also looked complicated to ThirdWheelWanted, as he says in his post above - a man with some military experience, so I gather. Also, the experts that I've been to find across the net seem to think the Buk takes a lot of skill to use.

For instance, here:

""You've got to have people who are technically competent," said retired US Army Major General Stephen V. Reeves, who served as an intelligence officer in Western Europe."

Technically, as a matter of interest, which do you think is closer - operating a Buk and operating a tractor, or operating a Buk and guiding one of the Apollo rockets? OK, a push, no doubt. But, all joking aside, this really *is* rocket science, isn't it?





BamaD -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 3:51:27 PM)

"You've got to have people who are technically competent,"

This should not be confused with highly skilled.



Politesub53 -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 4:30:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

You are being the fool, Polite, and anyone with a clue knows it. If you'd bothered to go through the link I provided earlier at all (but apparently chose to keep going with your own dumbass assumptions, instead) you would know that the missile has it's own radar guidance on board. The main radar finds the target, the operator turns on the missile, waits for the independent acquisition indicator, and pushes the button. The manual was probably right there in the glove box, when the rebels captured the equipment.





No Rich, you are the fool. The more you post the more you prove my point.

I will rather take the views given by the experts than some blowhard in the desert.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/10289031/Operating-Buk-missile-system-took-training



TheHeretic -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 4:30:38 PM)

Building a rocket is rocket science, Peon. Operating a machine that takes all the math out of the job for you isn't. Am I saying a bunch of random guys climbed into the thing , and shot down an airliner 20 minutes later? No. I am saying that it is completely within the realm of reason to think that the rebels captured a whole lot of abandoned equipment, and are using it. Think there might be some veterans of Soviet military service among them?




PeonForHer -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 4:33:49 PM)

The Lt General goes on to say,

""You don't just take some folks off the street, and 30 days later they're trained..."

So that's quite a degree of technical competence.

But what it boils down to for me is, would this machine be acquired without anyone being trained, at all, in its use? If not, who'd do the training? For me, it makes little difference if Russian soldiers fired the thing, or only trained the people who were to fire it.



PeonForHer -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 4:34:51 PM)

quote:

Think there might be some veterans of Soviet military service among them?


Yes, I think that's entirely possible. Did you believe I thought otherwise?



PeonForHer -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 4:38:12 PM)

At 18:00 you start to see inside the Buk. It looks more high-tech than the controls of your average light aircraft, I'd say. Certainly more complicated than the one my dad used to fly.



PeonForHer -> RE: We'll reroute aircraft around a volcano, but not a warzone??? (7/20/2014 4:39:57 PM)

Hang on,

"I am saying that it is completely within the realm of reason to think that the rebels captured a whole lot of abandoned equipment"

As a matter of interest, why and how would this equipment end up abandoned?



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