RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist

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DesideriScuri -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/23/2014 7:32:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri You do realize that the way Obama handled the draw down in Iraq really didn't have much to do with the current state of events there, right? ISIS didn't come about because of the way we left Iraq. ISIS was already there. ISIS has been fighting Assad in Syria. No, again. Obama ignored ISIS as they marched through Iraq Called them JV What has ISIS done to the US that allows us to do anything to them? Have they attacked our nation? No. Have they attacked a NATO country that allows us to attack, by treaty? No. Has the UN SC done anything authorizing a coalition force to take them out? No. On what authority can the US operate military action against ISIS?

Musicmystery -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/23/2014 7:45:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy I don't think he's ever traveled outside of the United States, and I suspect he does not own a passport or possess a library card either. He never really reads posted links and rarely offers valuable, illuminating information. He's very spirited though, sticking up for the white team and his version of apple pie. My favorite posts by him are the ones with Obama smiling on the golf course. I also like the way he spells out Obama's name insinuating he's un-American or maybe even the antichrist. I especially like the way leftists have to rely on logical fallacies such as these ad hominem attacks because their indefensible positions on policy rules out any kind of honest debate Probably because you see yourself in them.

Sanity -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/23/2014 8:36:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri What has ISIS done to the US that allows us to do anything to them? Have they attacked our nation? No. Have they attacked a NATO country that allows us to attack, by treaty? No. Has the UN SC done anything authorizing a coalition force to take them out? No. On what authority can the US operate military action against ISIS? Seriously, I am sure glad I don't have you for a neighbor. You must have half a clue who these people are, and the kinds of things that they perpetrate. They advertise their horror show on social media, and yet you turn a blind eye to them and the mass suffering they gleefully inflict, and the clear and present danger they pose to us that even Obama appointees are warning us about. Its absurd to suggest we need search warrants or a mandate from God or from NATO or the UN to go in there. We are already engaging them... At this point it is only a matter of scale. No one with any reasoning ability who is aware of the situation is going to object or shed a tear if we do what must be done here.

BenevolentM -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/23/2014 8:57:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 What most actually realize is you are talking bollocks. The ill thought out notion that carpet bombing Iraq would make everything fine is laughable. I don't think you read what I wrote. I wrote "You see they don't fear being bombed back to the stone age because it is something they want." How I arrived at this conclusion and how you arrived at it are different. They don't care if they are living in a mud hut with dirt floors and no running water, for example. They figure that so long as they have their holy book, they have everything they need. We are thinking like Americans or Europeans. They aren't. We actually care if we have running water, electricity, etc. These people don't care about medicine like Israel does and they don't care about the well being of their children the way we do. What is needed is the sort of mass surveillance that we have in the United States and Britain in the Middle East. Instead of spying on American citizens, they should be spying on the citizens of Iraq and nearby countries. Get biometric scans, finger prints, DNA samples, the works from every living person in the Middle East. Make it so they can't even walk down the street without being watched by a video camera. Make it so everything that is bought at the store is recorded in a central database. Put a few hundred video cameras and listening devices in every mosk. Make it illegal for street merchants to opt out of the system. Every transaction must be recorded. RFIF tag everything. Abolish the currency and give them debit/credit cards. We do it to our own law abiding citizens. Since this is war, the surveillance has to be tighter than it is here in the United States. Give all terror suspects in the Middle East an ankle bracelet that is capable of recording audio. Ironically, they are likely living in a society with far less surveillance than our own. This is backwards. The terrorists need to be pursued with the same rigor that those who have committed sex crimes or illicit drug use receive.

tweakabelle -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/24/2014 2:38:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri What has ISIS done to the US that allows us to do anything to them? Have they attacked our nation? No. Have they attacked a NATO country that allows us to attack, by treaty? No. Has the UN SC done anything authorizing a coalition force to take them out? No. On what authority can the US operate military action against ISIS? Seriously, I am sure glad I don't have you for a neighbor. You must have half a clue who these people are, and the kinds of things that they perpetrate. They advertise their horror show on social media, and yet you turn a blind eye to them and the mass suffering they gleefully inflict, and the clear and present danger they pose to us that even Obama appointees are warning us about. Its absurd to suggest we need search warrants or a mandate from God or from NATO or the UN to go in there. We are already engaging them... At this point it is only a matter of scale. No one with any reasoning ability who is aware of the situation is going to object or shed a tear if we do what must be done here. I don't think any one here is saying that IS are the kind of people you would invite home to meet Mum over a cup of tea. They're a bunch of vicious thugs with a medieval theocratic agenda that has no place in the modern world. No one wants them to succeed. So the question is what is to be done about them? There is no way they represent a "clear and present danger" to the US, or any other part of the West. They are a clear and present danger to residents of Iraq and Syria and adjacent countries. They are a problem for the region, not the world. The best way of dealing with them is to support the efforts of local authorities to defeat them, with air support and possibly low levels of special forces as a maximum level of direct international intervention. So DS's questions are pertinent and those who advocate Western military intervention need to supply compelling answers to DS's questions if they are to persuade us that their proposals have merit. If there is to be any kind of Western military intervention, it is critical that those measures are conducted with appropriate legal and political support. Minimally, that means: - UNSC approval and the co-operation of the Govts of the countries involved; - clearly defined objectives set out prior to any intervention; - with the possible exception of small groups of special forces, no Western 'boots on the ground'; and - a clear exit strategy set out and adhered to strictly. We have seen the results of previous cowboy Western interventions carried out without the backing of international law. Such interventions (particularly the madcap invasion of Iraq) are among the main causes of the current dire situation. It would be an unmitigated disaster to repeat the mistakes that caused groups such as IS to come into being and flourish.

Politesub53 -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/24/2014 4:36:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BenevolentM I don't think you read what I wrote. I wrote "You see they don't fear being bombed back to the stone age because it is something they want." How I arrived at this conclusion and how you arrived at it are different. They don't care if they are living in a mud hut with dirt floors and no running water, for example. They figure that so long as they have their holy book, they have everything they need. We are thinking like Americans or Europeans. They aren't. We actually care if we have running water, electricity, etc. These people don't care about medicine like Israel does and they don't care about the well being of their children the way we do. What is needed is the sort of mass surveillance that we have in the United States and Britain in the Middle East. Instead of spying on American citizens, they should be spying on the citizens of Iraq and nearby countries. Get biometric scans, finger prints, DNA samples, the works from every living person in the Middle East. Make it so they can't even walk down the street without being watched by a video camera. Make it so everything that is bought at the store is recorded in a central database. Put a few hundred video cameras and listening devices in every mosk. Make it illegal for street merchants to opt out of the system. Every transaction must be recorded. RFIF tag everything. Abolish the currency and give them debit/credit cards. We do it to our own law abiding citizens. Since this is war, the surveillance has to be tighter than it is here in the United States. Give all terror suspects in the Middle East an ankle bracelet that is capable of recording audio. Ironically, they are likely living in a society with far less surveillance than our own. This is backwards. The terrorists need to be pursued with the same rigor that those who have committed sex crimes or illicit drug use receive. I read it all too well. If you think they all want to be bombed into the stone age, you are talking out of your arse. Most just want to get on with life, just like we do. Your post above is both ignorant and racist.

DesideriScuri -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/24/2014 6:24:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri What has ISIS done to the US that allows us to do anything to them? Have they attacked our nation? No. Have they attacked a NATO country that allows us to attack, by treaty? No. Has the UN SC done anything authorizing a coalition force to take them out? No. On what authority can the US operate military action against ISIS? Seriously, I am sure glad I don't have you for a neighbor. We totally agree on this. I can't express in words how much I agree. quote: You must have half a clue who these people are, and the kinds of things that they perpetrate. They advertise their horror show on social media, and yet you turn a blind eye to them and the mass suffering they gleefully inflict, and the clear and present danger they pose to us that even Obama appointees are warning us about. Its absurd to suggest we need search warrants or a mandate from God or from NATO or the UN to go in there. We are already engaging them... At this point it is only a matter of scale. No one with any reasoning ability who is aware of the situation is going to object or shed a tear if we do what must be done here. So, we have no authority that you can cite, other than "we have to do something."

Sanity -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/24/2014 7:36:25 AM)
We have all the same authority that is required to help out a neighbor Or defend oneself from some neighborhood thugs The Iraqis have begged our help only to be ignored - which was an invitation Syria is a no-mans-land, and they have displayed video of their criminal acts for all to see And they are beyond a doubt a serious threat What more do you need

dreamysubmale -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/24/2014 7:49:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BenevolentM quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 What most actually realize is you are talking bollocks. The ill thought out notion that carpet bombing Iraq would make everything fine is laughable. I don't think you read what I wrote. I wrote "You see they don't fear being bombed back to the stone age because it is something they want." How I arrived at this conclusion and how you arrived at it are different. They don't care if they are living in a mud hut with dirt floors and no running water, for example. They figure that so long as they have their holy book, they have everything they need. We are thinking like Americans or Europeans. They aren't. We actually care if we have running water, electricity, etc. These people don't care about medicine like Israel does and they don't care about the well being of their children the way we do. What is needed is the sort of mass surveillance that we have in the United States and Britain in the Middle East. Instead of spying on American citizens, they should be spying on the citizens of Iraq and nearby countries. Get biometric scans, finger prints, DNA samples, the works from every living person in the Middle East. Make it so they can't even walk down the street without being watched by a video camera. Make it so everything that is bought at the store is recorded in a central database. Put a few hundred video cameras and listening devices in every mosk. Make it illegal for street merchants to opt out of the system. Every transaction must be recorded. RFIF tag everything. Abolish the currency and give them debit/credit cards. We do it to our own law abiding citizens. Since this is war, the surveillance has to be tighter than it is here in the United States. Give all terror suspects in the Middle East an ankle bracelet that is capable of recording audio. Ironically, they are likely living in a society with far less surveillance than our own. This is backwards. The terrorists need to be pursued with the same rigor that those who have committed sex crimes or illicit drug use receive. Your post suggests your unfamiliarity and ignorance of the region. What you mention in regards to mass surveillance you have in Britain and the United States is Boy Scout material in comparison to what is happening in these parts of the world. The mokhabarat (intelligence servise- secret police) is embedded among the population in their thousands, is ruthless and spreads state terror, even in comparatively peaceful regions. Stalin’s thugs, the KGB and Staci are angels in comparison. Even a lowly ranked police officer has the power to make your life hell over there, now imagine the corruption and influence you get as you move up the ladder of power. The spring uprisings in these regions took place mainly to get rid of this terror. Yes, they do care about having clean water and electricity. They do care about having education and medicine for their kids. This is the reason Hezbollah, Hamas and even the Taliban and ISIS for that matter enjoy popularity among the poor and destitute of the region; they provide welfare, education and medical care, the basics that their governments fail to provide. Unfortunately they (the Hezbollahs etc.) themselves become as ruthless if not more. ESL.

Musicmystery -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/24/2014 7:59:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BenevolentM I don't think you read what I wrote. No one reads what you write. The bulk of it is written to yourself.

DesideriScuri -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/24/2014 10:04:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity We have all the same authority that is required to help out a neighbor Or defend oneself from some neighborhood thugs The Iraqis have begged our help only to be ignored - which was an invitation Really? Our fighters must have been dropping photo bombs, and not explosive bombs. [8\|] quote: Syria is a no-mans-land, and they have displayed video of their criminal acts for all to see And they are beyond a doubt a serious threat What more do you need Proof that they are a serious threat to the USA, for starters. If that isn't there (and it isn't), some sort of Constitutional authority to act, which isn't there, either (at least not yet).

Sanity -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/24/2014 10:46:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Really? Our fighters must have been dropping photo bombs, and not explosive bombs. [8\|] Months late and way short "ISIS? Those JV wannabes? Hah!" quote: Proof that they are a serious threat to the USA, for starters. If that isn't there (and it isn't), some sort of Constitutional authority to act, which isn't there, either (at least not yet). Read the news, or read these threads for your proof. And since when did the constitution or laws matter to Obama Beside that, as president he COULD lead You know, make the case before congress and the people Or NATO, the UN Way too much to ask, I know. After all, there are still a lot of golf balls in his bag

Sanity -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/24/2014 10:53:12 AM)
quote: Pentagon Asked if ISIS is Still ‘JV’ Pentagon Press Secretary Rear Admiral John Kirby was asked if ISIS was still a “JV team” at Friday’s press briefing. Kirby said that ISIS has “grown in capability with speed” since President Obama referred to ISIS as a “JV team” in a January interview with The New Yorker, and that “we’ve been watching this for months.” Kirby characterized the situation with ISIS as “serious,” adding “everybody has the same view here about the threat posed by ISIL, not just to Iraq, but to the region.” And “their threat continues to grow...we believe it does pose an imminent threat and it’s a threat that we need to take seriously.” http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2014/08/22/Pentagon-Asked-if-ISIS-is-Still-JV Can you imagine the field day the media would have had with Bush if HE had referred to the worlds most dangerous and extreme mass-murdering terrorist organization as JV

Sanity -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/24/2014 11:07:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle There is no way they represent a "clear and present danger" to the US, or any other part of the West. Beheading our citizens with dull pocket knives because they are American citizens isn't exactly the same as showering us with rainbows n lollipops

Musicmystery -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/24/2014 11:09:40 AM)
Well, for starters, we wouldn't be throwing away billions on the Department of Homeland Theater and the world's largest embassy (in...Iraq, FFS). Not to mention the billions it costs travelers and businesses in the extra costs and slowed pace, nor the billions thrown away on creating the current Iraq mess. He took three times as much vacation as Obama. I wish he had taken more and done less. We'd all be better off for it.

DesideriScuri -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/24/2014 11:13:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Really? Our fighters must have been dropping photo bombs, and not explosive bombs. [8\|] Months late and way short "ISIS? Those JV wannabes? Hah!" So, we ARE helping Iraq, then, eh? That's sorta counter to your comment earlier... quote: quote: Proof that they are a serious threat to the USA, for starters. If that isn't there (and it isn't), some sort of Constitutional authority to act, which isn't there, either (at least not yet). Read the news, or read these threads for your proof. And since when did the constitution or laws matter to Obama Beside that, as president he COULD lead You know, make the case before congress and the people Or NATO, the UN Way too much to ask, I know. After all, there are still a lot of golf balls in his bag It doesn't matter if President Obama had broken every part of the Constitution before, I will still call for Constitutionality before action. One has to wonder why the case hasn't been made to Congress or We the People yet. I submit that there isn't a case to be made that will result in the American populace supporting Constitutionally sound actions. A NATO member hasn't been attacked, so NATO is out. One has to wonder if the UN is following any of this, or not. Why is it up to the US to make the case for military action? I mean, I understand that the US is going to be the bulk of the military presence, but why haven't Syria and Iraq gone before the UN SC and made the case? I mean, they have been UN member states for almost 70 years, each...

Sanity -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/24/2014 11:20:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Really? Our fighters must have been dropping photo bombs, and not explosive bombs. [8\|] Months late and way short "ISIS? Those JV wannabes? Hah!" So, we ARE helping Iraq, then, eh? That's sorta counter to your comment earlier... quote: quote: Proof that they are a serious threat to the USA, for starters. If that isn't there (and it isn't), some sort of Constitutional authority to act, which isn't there, either (at least not yet). Read the news, or read these threads for your proof. And since when did the constitution or laws matter to Obama Beside that, as president he COULD lead You know, make the case before congress and the people Or NATO, the UN Way too much to ask, I know. After all, there are still a lot of golf balls in his bag It doesn't matter if President Obama had broken every part of the Constitution before, I will still call for Constitutionality before action. One has to wonder why the case hasn't been made to Congress or We the People yet. I submit that there isn't a case to be made that will result in the American populace supporting Constitutionally sound actions. A NATO member hasn't been attacked, so NATO is out. One has to wonder if the UN is following any of this, or not. Why is it up to the US to make the case for military action? I mean, I understand that the US is going to be the bulk of the military presence, but why haven't Syria and Iraq gone before the UN SC and made the case? I mean, they have been UN member states for almost 70 years, each... That earlier comment was in reply to your claiming that Barack should get permission from somebody to act [;)]

DesideriScuri -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/24/2014 11:25:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Really? Our fighters must have been dropping photo bombs, and not explosive bombs. [8\|] Months late and way short "ISIS? Those JV wannabes? Hah!" So, we ARE helping Iraq, then, eh? That's sorta counter to your comment earlier... quote: quote: Proof that they are a serious threat to the USA, for starters. If that isn't there (and it isn't), some sort of Constitutional authority to act, which isn't there, either (at least not yet). Read the news, or read these threads for your proof. And since when did the constitution or laws matter to Obama Beside that, as president he COULD lead You know, make the case before congress and the people Or NATO, the UN Way too much to ask, I know. After all, there are still a lot of golf balls in his bag It doesn't matter if President Obama had broken every part of the Constitution before, I will still call for Constitutionality before action. One has to wonder why the case hasn't been made to Congress or We the People yet. I submit that there isn't a case to be made that will result in the American populace supporting Constitutionally sound actions. A NATO member hasn't been attacked, so NATO is out. One has to wonder if the UN is following any of this, or not. Why is it up to the US to make the case for military action? I mean, I understand that the US is going to be the bulk of the military presence, but why haven't Syria and Iraq gone before the UN SC and made the case? I mean, they have been UN member states for almost 70 years, each... That earlier comment was in reply to your claiming that Barack should get permission from somebody to act [;)] Yet, we are acting in Iraq. I do oppose our acting as the air force in Iraq. We don't have the authority to do even that.

Sanity -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/24/2014 11:41:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Yet, we are acting in Iraq. I do oppose our acting as the air force in Iraq. We don't have the authority to do even that. Oh really? When did the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 expire?

DesideriScuri -> RE: IS defies US and executes US journalist (8/24/2014 12:32:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Yet, we are acting in Iraq. I do oppose our acting as the air force in Iraq. We don't have the authority to do even that. Oh really? When did the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 expire? It hasn't expired, that I know of. However, since we're not actually using military force against Iraq, this doesn't authorize military action against ISIS.

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