RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape

RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (Full Version)

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ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 1:18:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted Maybe I'm confused. I thought an "over hand grip" was another name for the classic "ice pick" grip? That's what I was thinking, but you can hold a knife that way with your arms at your sides. K. Ok, good point. Generally with a ice pick grip, you bring the hand up to the shoulder or by the ear. There's no reason you couldn't use that grip with your arm by your side, but it would be kind of awkward. The blade would be pointed away from anyone you were trying to attack, making it much slower to initiate. Generally split seconds count with a knife, especially if you're jumping a guy with a gun. Seems pretty counter intuitive. You really have to wonder if Powell was looking to die? Kind of looks that way.

tweakabelle -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 1:47:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Wait, steal something from a store, disobey orders from armed police when they arrive, bait them, and then make a move toward an officer. Wow. And nobody thinks this is about Darwin Awards? K. Taking your description of events at face value, precisely how does all this justify killing the poor guy? Even if this person was making "a move' towards the two officers, does this justify killing him? Not only is the guy outnumbered but presumably the cops are also armed with nightsticks, Tasers and (possibly) disabling gas sprays. They are also trained in self defence and subduing troublesome and aggressive people. So they had plenty of non-lethal options available to them, which they declined to use. So, again, how does all of this somehow justify killing this guy?

SadistDave -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 2:05:44 AM)
Imagine, if you will, someone walking up to you with their arms down, holding the blade of a knife pointed behind them edge down. This individual walks up to you and punches you in the face. Meanwhile, the knife blade follows the arc of his fist, slashing your face. If you have quick enough reflexes to dodge the punch, there's a pretty good chance that you're still going to be cut. If you somehow managed to block his punch it would almost guarantee deep lacerations to your arms or hands. I would have shot the fucker too...! -SD-

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 2:34:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Wait, steal something from a store, disobey orders from armed police when they arrive, bait them, and then make a move toward an officer. Wow. And nobody thinks this is about Darwin Awards? K. Taking your description of events at face value, precisely how does all this justify killing the poor guy? Even if this person was making "a move' towards the two officers, does this justify killing him? Not only is the guy outnumbered but presumably the cops are also armed with nightsticks, Tasers and (possibly) disabling gas sprays. They are also trained in self defence and subduing troublesome and aggressive people. So they had plenty of non-lethal options available to them, which they declined to use. So, again, how does all of this somehow justify killing this guy? I've been looking ever since Ferguson hit the news, and I can't find any mention of police (in that area) being armed with Tasers. I'm not saying that they're not, but I can't find anything that says that they are either. ETA: Ok, watched the video again looking for Tasers. Out of all the officers walking around, a dozen or so, I only saw two. I wasn't able to see if either of the 1st responders had one, they never got close enough to the camera to tell for sure. The problem I see is, within seconds of them pulling up, he began moving on them aggressively. If they'd stopped back a bit farther and been able to advance on him in a way that allowed them to cover each other, they'd have had more options. As it was, when he closed with the officer on the passenger side, the driver was still on the other side of the vehicle. That makes it very hard for him to cover his partner if the partner had tried to disable Powell. If the driver had waited, he'd have been firing into Powell's back and directly at the other officer. That's not really a good idea. As far as batons go, they're not meant to be used against suspects armed with lethal weapons. And regardless of what some people think, a knife is a lethal weapon. You don't want to get into close proximity with someone carrying a knife, odds are you're going to get cut, especially if you have to start grappling with him. Even with two on one, the most likely outcome is at least one officer hurt. People always underestimate knives, there's a reason they're still being used so many years after they were discovered. And if the wielder is unbalanced and doesn't care if he gets hurt or dies, he'll probably take someone with him if he gets close enough.

Kirata -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 2:54:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle *presumably* the cops are... So they had plenty of non-lethal options available to them, which they declined to use. This is nonsense. You are simply presuming your conclusion. K.

Lucylastic -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 3:07:47 AM)
changed my post since Kirata edited his

Lucylastic -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 3:46:14 AM)
quote: side-walk squares is between 3 and 4 feet per side. That makes the half squares 1.5 to 2 feet wide. Much bigger than 3-4 feet, unless Powell has tiny feet. I guess "suicide by cop" is cheaper and easier than therapy for any mentally unstable person...YAY[&o] [image]local://upfiles/228382/8C654732F36745A287DDDB04E12595DD.jpg[/image]

PeonForHer -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 4:33:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Wait, steal something from a store, disobey orders from armed police when they arrive, bait them, and then make a move toward an officer. Wow. And nobody thinks this is about Darwin Awards? K. Taking your description of events at face value, precisely how does all this justify killing the poor guy? Even if this person was making "a move' towards the two officers, does this justify killing him? Not only is the guy outnumbered but presumably the cops are also armed with nightsticks, Tasers and (possibly) disabling gas sprays. They are also trained in self defence and subduing troublesome and aggressive people. So they had plenty of non-lethal options available to them, which they declined to use. So, again, how does all of this somehow justify killing this guy? The whole incident looks alien to me - it smacks so much of 'we must dominate this situation' rather than 'we must resolve it'. I've seen situations like this over here and the latter is what I'd expect. The police are also armed with, er, legs. But they don't back away. What is wrong with backing away as you continue to talk, think more coolly, position yourself to use a tazer ... in general slow the whole thing down?

thishereboi -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 4:41:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers I haven't for a while and we shouldn't expect much different. ALL cops cover for each other and in court...commit the most perjury. Seems YouTube has been censured. ALL of them do it? Wow, that is amazing. Not a single cop out of the thousands working in this country can be trusted to tell the truth. And we know this because Mr Rogers said it was true. And I know you will be along with a link to back up your bullshit, right? as to the op I am not sure what the guy was trying to prove. If it was that cops can be trigger happy and might shoot you for simply moving toward them, then I would say he was successful. And if it played out like the video indicates it did, I hope they charge the officers but you just never know. It would also be nice if other kids saw this happening and decided that it's not a good idea to rush a cop with a gun but since it keeps happening I am not going to hold my breath.

thishereboi -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 4:50:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge The moral of the story, be careful what you wish for, you may get it. did you/Americans wish for a police state? cuz that is what you have.. The cops lied about what actually happened.. doesn't that tell ya something? You either have no clue what a police state is or you have no clue how life is here in the states. Which is it?

tj444 -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 4:53:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson said Tuesday that both of the officers opened fire on Powell when he came within a three or four feet of them holding a knife "*in an overhand grip." But the newly released cell phone footage undermines the statement, showing Powell approaching the cops, but not coming as close as was reported, with his hands at his side.* The officers began shooting within 15 seconds of their arrival, hitting Powell with a barrage of bullets. I'll give you that he wasn't holding the knife the way they described, his arms were at his sides... Having an overhand grip on the knife does not mean his arms were raised. K. if you watched one of the vids, the officer that was on camera during the press conference actually showed that, he said the dead man was holding the knife in an overhand grip and he raised his own hand/arm to demonstrate.. so yeah, they deliberately lied..

Kirata -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 5:00:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer The whole incident looks alien to me... I have to admit it does to me too, albeit for different reasons. In any situation where you are told to do something by two armed men who have you in the sights of drawn weapons, the implication cannot escape even the meanest intellect that the alternative is to be shot. I can only wonder what Powell thought he was proving. But whatever it was, the guy overheard in the video was right: "This is not how you do it, brother." K.

tj444 -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 5:08:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge The moral of the story, be careful what you wish for, you may get it. did you/Americans wish for a police state? cuz that is what you have.. The cops lied about what actually happened.. doesn't that tell ya something? You either have no clue what a police state is or you have no clue how life is here in the states. Which is it? why are the police militarized now then? they have much of the same equipment that the military have.. yes, the US is a police state, just cuz you haven't experienced that personally (yet) doesn't mean it is not that way.. All communications over the internet are monitored and saved without cause or a warrant, police are using drones, police can confiscate your cash and assets without charging you or having a trial & you must prove yourself innocent and pay a lawyer tens of thousands of $ to get your cash/assets back (which you likely don't have since they took it from you already), the US has laws allowing for unlimited detention with no charges, trial or legal representation, many states have outrageous sentences for even minor offences, the US has the most jailed people of all the countries of the world, the police can violate your constitutional rights and there is fuck all you can do about that.. etc, etc, etc.. That to me is a police state.. and its not just me saying that.. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-w-whitehead/life-in-the-emerging-amer_b_4519241.html http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/05/01/us-become-worse-police-state-orwell-imagine/ http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/12/former-top-nsa-official-now-police-state.html

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 5:08:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson said Tuesday that both of the officers opened fire on Powell when he came within a three or four feet of them holding a knife "*in an overhand grip." But the newly released cell phone footage undermines the statement, showing Powell approaching the cops, but not coming as close as was reported, with his hands at his side.* The officers began shooting within 15 seconds of their arrival, hitting Powell with a barrage of bullets. I'll give you that he wasn't holding the knife the way they described, his arms were at his sides... Having an overhand grip on the knife does not mean his arms were raised. K. if you watched one of the vids, the officer that was on camera during the press conference actually showed that, he said the dead man was holding the knife in an overhand grip and he raised his own hand/arm to demonstrate.. so yeah, they deliberately lied.. Yes, the chief who was making the statement did make that sort of motion with his arm. Now tell me, how does that one inconsistency demonstrably change what happened? Powell advanced on two cops, with a knife in his hand, yelling "shoot me shoot me!" As the chief said, he first approached the front of the vehicle, then stopped, then turned and went straight towards the passenger. They didn't shoot till he was close enough to roll to a stop at the passenger's feet. So please explain how the exact position his arm was in makes such a vast difference in the encounter?

PeonForHer -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 5:15:51 AM)
quote: I can only wonder what Powell thought he was proving. ... That he wasn't right in the head, to my mind. 'Agitated' seems to be the standard euphemism.

tj444 -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 5:19:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson said Tuesday that both of the officers opened fire on Powell when he came within a three or four feet of them holding a knife "*in an overhand grip." But the newly released cell phone footage undermines the statement, showing Powell approaching the cops, but not coming as close as was reported, with his hands at his side.* The officers began shooting within 15 seconds of their arrival, hitting Powell with a barrage of bullets. I'll give you that he wasn't holding the knife the way they described, his arms were at his sides... Having an overhand grip on the knife does not mean his arms were raised. K. if you watched one of the vids, the officer that was on camera during the press conference actually showed that, he said the dead man was holding the knife in an overhand grip and he raised his own hand/arm to demonstrate.. so yeah, they deliberately lied.. Yes, the chief who was making the statement did make that sort of motion with his arm. Now tell me, how does that one inconsistency demonstrably change what happened? Powell advanced on two cops, with a knife in his hand, yelling "shoot me shoot me!" As the chief said, he first approached the front of the vehicle, then stopped, then turned and went straight towards the passenger. They didn't shoot till he was close enough to roll to a stop at the passenger's feet. So please explain how the exact position his arm was in makes such a vast difference in the encounter? there are other lies as well such as how close the guy was to the cop.. he was not as close to them as claimed.. why lie about these things and claim they are facts when they are fabrications.. I guess they were hoping no one was recording the whole thing and able to show them to be lying..

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 5:24:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: side-walk squares is between 3 and 4 feet per side. That makes the half squares 1.5 to 2 feet wide. Much bigger than 3-4 feet, unless Powell has tiny feet. I guess "suicide by cop" is cheaper and easier than therapy for any mentally unstable person...YAY[&o] [image]local://upfiles/228382/8C654732F36745A287DDDB04E12595DD.jpg[/image] Don't know the size of his feet, but you're probably right, those squares are bigger then I first thought. You're last screen cap isn't where they started firing though, the driver doesn't even have his weapon up. When Powell fell, he was close enough to the wall that he landed on the far side of it, rolled once, and was within inches of the officers feet. If the large square is 6 feet to a side, more likely based on Powell's feet, then the smaller is about 3 wide . The officer is just over the line of the small square, and Powell is close enough to stop at his feet. So either he was going faster then he looked, or he was closer. Take your pick. As to "suicide by cop" what's your point? The officers didn't hop in their vehicle and decide, hey let's go kill someone. Powell made a decision to rob a store, stand just down the block waiting for the police, then come at them with a knife shouting "shoot me, shoot me already!" I'll grant you, he was clearly disturbed, but you make that sound like it should make someone more likely to want to get close enough for him to stab. I don't know about you, but I stay as far as possible from crazy men with knives. Police have hard enough jobs. I don't think they need to be made harder by insisting they have to get close enough to grab a guy with a knife who seems to want to die.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 5:29:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 there are other lies as well such as how close the guy was to the cop.. he was not as close to them as claimed.. why lie about these things and claim they are facts when they are fabrications.. I guess they were hoping no one was recording the whole thing and able to show them to be lying.. My GF and I just watched the blown up version of this. She's much further left then I am, voted for Obama, etc. Even she said she didn't see anything they could do once he was that close. He rolled to a stop at the one officers feet, the officer stepped back to avoid him. How much closer did he have to get? I pointed out in the other shooting thread, with one full step forward, I have a "reach" of 59". That's from the toes of my starting left foot, to the knuckles of right hand. Add another few inches for a knife. Now tell me how someone 5' away is "safe" from someone who's only got a knife. And that's not running, that's from a standing start.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 5:41:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer The whole incident looks alien to me - it smacks so much of 'we must dominate this situation' rather than 'we must resolve it'. I've seen situations like this over here and the latter is what I'd expect. The police are also armed with, er, legs. But they don't back away. What is wrong with backing away as you continue to talk, think more coolly, position yourself to use a tazer ... in general slow the whole thing down? I just saw this on TV this morning blown up, neither officer has a Taser. Later in the full video, two officers show up with them on their belts. They're bright yellow and clearly visible. If they'd been on the 1st arriving, you'd have been able to see them. As to why so few have them? No idea. Cost I'd guess. Ok, let's say they start backing away. The passenger wouldn't have much choice but to go straight back, since Powell is coming straight at him, he's penned in by the car on one side, and if he goes the other way he's moving away from his partner. The driver can either run around the front of the car, which would put Powell between him and his partner. Not a good place to be if they had to start shooting, they'd be shooting right at each other. His other option would be to circle around the back of the car, which would make it difficult to cover his partner till he got there. Once they were separated, if Powell sped up, the passenger tripped, whatever, Powell could be right on top of him and the driver wouldn't be able to assist. It might be only a few seconds, but that's a LONG time if you're fighting with an agitated man with a knife. A suggestion I had was, they should have stopped the vehicle sooner and had more time to move towards him together. More easily able to support each other without the vehicle in the way. My GF shot that idea down. Her point was, usually when the police show up, they have to chase the suspect. They weren't expecting him to be standing there waiting for them, much less coming at them.

BitYakin -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 5:42:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: side-walk squares is between 3 and 4 feet per side. That makes the half squares 1.5 to 2 feet wide. Much bigger than 3-4 feet, unless Powell has tiny feet. I guess "suicide by cop" is cheaper and easier than therapy for any mentally unstable person...YAY[&o] [image]local://upfiles/228382/8C654732F36745A287DDDB04E12595DD.jpg[/image] Don't know the size of his feet, but you're probably right, those squares are bigger then I first thought. You're last screen cap isn't where they started firing though, the driver doesn't even have his weapon up. When Powell fell, he was close enough to the wall that he landed on the far side of it, rolled once, and was within inches of the officers feet. If the large square is 6 feet to a side, more likely based on Powell's feet, then the smaller is about 3 wide . The officer is just over the line of the small square, and Powell is close enough to stop at his feet. So either he was going faster then he looked, or he was closer. Take your pick. As to "suicide by cop" what's your point? The officers didn't hop in their vehicle and decide, hey let's go kill someone. Powell made a decision to rob a store, stand just down the block waiting for the police, then come at them with a knife shouting "shoot me, shoot me already!" I'll grant you, he was clearly disturbed, but you make that sound like it should make someone more likely to want to get close enough for him to stab. I don't know about you, but I stay as far as possible from crazy men with knives. Police have hard enough jobs. I don't think they need to be made harder by insisting they have to get close enough to grab a guy with a knife who seems to want to die. just an FYI, I think those sidewalk squares are aprox. 4' by 4' possibly 5' X 5' you can check this yourself. if you assume the man to be aprox. 6 foot tall, in the first picture measure the man from heel to head, then turn the measurement sideways and hold it to the line of the square... I think you'll see the square is aprox. 75% of the mans height

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