RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape

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ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 10:42:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic Read....inwardly digest.....if it still doesnt make sense... tough Ok, I stand corrected. There's so many posts going back and forth, I didn't know what you meant. My mistake. By the way, I'm not thrilled with an unstable person being killed. I've had some family members who were pretty damn unstable at times. Hell this could have been my wife when she had her psychotic break and needed to be hospitalized. But, I can see how it could happen. An otherwise healthy man who's unbalanced is usually fairly strong. Toss in not caring if you get hurt or die, and that's a dangerous combination to go hand to hand with. It was also over so quickly, 20 seconds till he's down, about 15 to the first shot IIRC. Folks are blaming that on the officers, but Powell went after them as soon as they stepped out of the car. TJ commented that since suicide by cop (SBC) is a know factor, they should have anticipated it. I think that's wishful thinking. Horses not zebras. When you get a call for a man with a knife robbing a store, you're going to go in assuming you know roughly what to expect, which is most likely a fleeing suspect. When they got there, they had seconds to realize what was really happening and try to adapt. Depending on your point of view, they either did or didn't. They did in that there was only one fatality. They didn't in that a man who could possibly have received treatment is now dead. The problem is, human minds tend to suck at rapid changes. If they're going one way, they can't just flip around. Some people can, but most tend to get stuck if events change too rapidly for them to take in. In this case, the officers had only seconds, with a man approaching them with a knife, to make that change. Ever have someone really come after you aggressively? It's scary if they're unarmed, add a weapon and it's mind-numbing. You focus almost completely on the weapon. There have been instances where someone was mugged, the mugger was right there, and all they could describe was the weapon. It's one reason witness statements have been shown to be so unreliable.

DomKen -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 12:11:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Because if he had the knife in the grip described with his hand at his side rather than raised to stab he was no threat to the officers. They could have backed up and resolved the situation non lethally. Ummm, no. All it would do would make it slightly slower to stab someone. You'd have to bring your arm up and then back down, rather then just down. A few tenths of a second difference. I'll stipulate that knife fights can come down to tenths of a second, especially against a man with a gun, but it certainly doesn't make him "no threat". If he raised his arm, then they could have shot him. They were wearing vests so to harm them with a knife so small it wasn't visible on the video he would have had to slash the cop's throat which would have meant not just getting closer but raising the knife well above waist level. They knew they had done wrong or they wouldn't have lied about the entire incident. The knife was reported as being a "steak knife". I don't know what that means to you, but all of mine are 4-5" long and serrated. Not a huge knife, but not tiny either. Certainly long enough to go through a vest, they're not all that thick. Even a level III-A is only about 10mm. Most are not stab resistant. Your average provides almost no protection from a knife, that's just not how they work. Unless you hit a trauma plate, which isn't something normally worn day to day, you might as well be cutting canvas. If you hold a half dozen canvas shopping bags against your chest and let someone stab you, it'll do about as much good. Kevlar will stop slashing attacks, at least a few, but it won't stop a stabbing one. And you insisting that someone needs to wait till the knife is raised to be in "danger" is ludicrous. Someone who knows what they're doing, or is just fast, who gets within 3-5 feet will kill you several times over before you know what's happening. Check out video from a prison sometime, where a guy is getting shanked. You'll usually see a fast blitz and then the person being stabbed rapid-fire, 5-6 times in the first few seconds. You only have to move your arm a few inches forward and back, it's scary how fast that minor motion can be. Have you ever tried stabbing something with a steak knife? Unless it was a very good example of such it couldn't stab anything. It would snap off before it would stab anything. You need to reenter reality. Steak knives are made to saw through steaks. They are next to useless for anything else.

Gauge -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 1:24:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Have you ever tried stabbing something with a steak knife? Unless it was a very good example of such it couldn't stab anything. It would snap off before it would stab anything. You need to reenter reality. Steak knives are made to saw through steaks. They are next to useless for anything else. Come on man, really? A quick trip to Amazon and I could present to you more than twenty different steak knives that could stab you and remain intact for as many thrusts as necessary. Is it the best weapon for the job? Nope, but I guarantee that it will perform adequately enough. Saying that a steak knife is incapable of doing serious grievous bodily harm is a little outlandish, even for you.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 2:10:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Have you ever tried stabbing something with a steak knife? Unless it was a very good example of such it couldn't stab anything. It would snap off before it would stab anything. You need to reenter reality. Steak knives are made to saw through steaks. They are next to useless for anything else. Maybe mine are just better then average. I have a few cheap ones that I use when I want to saw through crap that I don't care if the blade might get damaged. The rest are all decent metal and full tang riveted blades. I'd be more worried about my hand slipping and riding up the blade then it breaking. I'd bet that people have been killed/hurt with even cheap shit steak knives before though. Maybe they'd break after a stab or two, but that wouldn't help the person getting stabbed. Actually the blade breaking off and getting stuck inside would really suck. As far as me personally stabbing a cheap steak knife into something, about all I can think of is the ground (to break up the dirt or cut a root) or a metal can (when I don't have an opener handy). I've broken a few over the years, but way more often they made it through fine. Odd, now that I think about it, I can't think of any that broke being stabbed into metal, but at least two into dirt.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 3:09:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 quote: ORIGINAL: Gauge The moral of the story, be careful what you wish for, you may get it. did you/Americans wish for a police state? cuz that is what you have.. The cops lied about what actually happened.. doesn't that tell ya something? You either have no clue what a police state is or you have no clue how life is here in the states. Which is it? why are the police militarized now then? they have much of the same equipment that the military have.. Part of the reason the police have much of the same equipment as the military is because the military has a surplus and aren't actively fighting a ground war anywhere. What's really interesting are the people who think the police having this stuff is going to cut down on crime. A LAV in camo with the local PD emblem is going to somehow upgrade the police? Is there such an area in the US where that stuff is currently necessary and the local PD is suffering because they don't have one? I wonder if US BP is already decked out in the stuff.

DomKen -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 4:14:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Have you ever tried stabbing something with a steak knife? Unless it was a very good example of such it couldn't stab anything. It would snap off before it would stab anything. You need to reenter reality. Steak knives are made to saw through steaks. They are next to useless for anything else. Maybe mine are just better then average. I have a few cheap ones that I use when I want to saw through crap that I don't care if the blade might get damaged. The rest are all decent metal and full tang riveted blades. I'd be more worried about my hand slipping and riding up the blade then it breaking. I'd bet that people have been killed/hurt with even cheap shit steak knives before though. Maybe they'd break after a stab or two, but that wouldn't help the person getting stabbed. Actually the blade breaking off and getting stuck inside would really suck. As far as me personally stabbing a cheap steak knife into something, about all I can think of is the ground (to break up the dirt or cut a root) or a metal can (when I don't have an opener handy). I've broken a few over the years, but way more often they made it through fine. Odd, now that I think about it, I can't think of any that broke being stabbed into metal, but at least two into dirt. Most steak knives are stamped from thin stainless steel. You can tell by the fact that they flex. The better the metal the less the knife will flex. I really doubt a guy in the hood had a good one. A cheap one will snap or bend if subjected to a great deal of pressure on the tip. Stabbing through a vest would definitely require that great deal of pressure as it does provide some protection. And still stabbing would require a change in orientation of the knife or lifting of the knife hand either of which the cops could have responded to. As it is this guy was still not actually presenting a threat when they killed him.

DomKen -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 4:19:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri Part of the reason the police have much of the same equipment as the military is because the military has a surplus and aren't actively fighting a ground war anywhere. What's really interesting are the people who think the police having this stuff is going to cut down on crime. A LAV in camo with the local PD emblem is going to somehow upgrade the police? Is there such an area in the US where that stuff is currently necessary and the local PD is suffering because they don't have one? I wonder if US BP is already decked out in the stuff. It is remotely possible that a rural sheriff's department might have use for something like that in the parts of Appalachia where they cook a lot of meth. Back when that was a big thing in the area where I'm from the cookers would setup trailers in spots as remote as possible and they were usually doing meth and wound up tight with lots of guns so an all terrain armored vehicle might have been useful. But other than that I really can't see it.

subrob1967 -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 6:54:30 PM)
FR This is clearly a case of suicide by cop. Not only did the "victim" set his stolen sodas on the curb, he stood around and waited for the police to arrive. Not only did he wait for the cops, he then moved to the left to make sure no innocent bystanders were hit as he approached the police in a threatening manner. The guy talking about his Honeybuns was hilarious though, he didn't give a shit about the dead guy, he just wanted his sugar fix.

ThirdWheelWanted -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 8:37:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Most steak knives are stamped from thin stainless steel. You can tell by the fact that they flex. The better the metal the less the knife will flex. I really doubt a guy in the hood had a good one. A cheap one will snap or bend if subjected to a great deal of pressure on the tip. Stabbing through a vest would definitely require that great deal of pressure as it does provide some protection. And still stabbing would require a change in orientation of the knife or lifting of the knife hand either of which the cops could have responded to. As it is this guy was still not actually presenting a threat when they killed him. I'll admit, most of my knives are of the better variety. Thick steel, full tang, no flex to the blade at all. But I have 2 sets I got when I was younger that are crappy, plastic handles, thin metal, partial tang at best, and they flex 30 degrees or more just with finger tip pressure. Even so, they're over 20 years old, have been beat to hell, and only two have ever broken. You are really going to insist that a man coming at you aggressively, knife in his hand even if it's not in the optimal position to strike, and screaming "Shoot me, shoot me!" isn't a threat? You make it seem as if that change in orientation will take forever. If you're already moving forward, how long does it take for your hand to go from hip to shoulder and back down? It's definitely under a second, I'd say somewhere between .3 to .5 of a second? Average human reaction time is about .25 of a second. (It varies from .15 to .30, but .25 is about average) So by the time you register the visual clue that the attack is coming, you have maybe .25 of a second to react, reacquire the target, aim and fire. I'm sorry, but that's a threat to anyone rational.

Gauge -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 9:47:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted You are really going to insist that a man coming at you aggressively, knife in his hand even if it's not in the optimal position to strike, and screaming "Shoot me, shoot me!" isn't a threat? Of course it isn't. It happens all the time. Let me guess, you live in a single home. [:)]

Gauge -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/21/2014 9:51:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Most steak knives are stamped from thin stainless steel. You can tell by the fact that they flex. The better the metal the less the knife will flex. I really doubt a guy in the hood had a good one. A cheap one will snap or bend if subjected to a great deal of pressure on the tip. Stabbing through a vest would definitely require that great deal of pressure as it does provide some protection. And still stabbing would require a change in orientation of the knife or lifting of the knife hand either of which the cops could have responded to. As it is this guy was still not actually presenting a threat when they killed him. So, let me ask you something. If you attack someone with a flimsy steak knife, what will the police charge you with? Assault with an inadequate weapon? Nope, it will be assault with a deadly weapon because it can kill a human being, it isn't a fucking toy.

DomKen -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/22/2014 2:48:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen Most steak knives are stamped from thin stainless steel. You can tell by the fact that they flex. The better the metal the less the knife will flex. I really doubt a guy in the hood had a good one. A cheap one will snap or bend if subjected to a great deal of pressure on the tip. Stabbing through a vest would definitely require that great deal of pressure as it does provide some protection. And still stabbing would require a change in orientation of the knife or lifting of the knife hand either of which the cops could have responded to. As it is this guy was still not actually presenting a threat when they killed him. I'll admit, most of my knives are of the better variety. Thick steel, full tang, no flex to the blade at all. But I have 2 sets I got when I was younger that are crappy, plastic handles, thin metal, partial tang at best, and they flex 30 degrees or more just with finger tip pressure. Even so, they're over 20 years old, have been beat to hell, and only two have ever broken. You are really going to insist that a man coming at you aggressively, knife in his hand even if it's not in the optimal position to strike, and screaming "Shoot me, shoot me!" isn't a threat? You make it seem as if that change in orientation will take forever. If you're already moving forward, how long does it take for your hand to go from hip to shoulder and back down? It's definitely under a second, I'd say somewhere between .3 to .5 of a second? Average human reaction time is about .25 of a second. (It varies from .15 to .30, but .25 is about average) So by the time you register the visual clue that the attack is coming, you have maybe .25 of a second to react, reacquire the target, aim and fire. I'm sorry, but that's a threat to anyone rational. So wait to shoot till he actually gets close or he starts to make the aggressive move. That reaction time is all it takes to fire so if he keeps approaching or actually does shift his posture then fire. I say you take the risk when you are otherwise talking about taking a human life.

tweakabelle -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/22/2014 4:37:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ThirdWheelWanted quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Even if this person was making "a move' towards the two officers, does this justify killing him? Not only is the guy outnumbered but presumably the cops are also armed with nightsticks, Tasers and (possibly) disabling gas sprays. They are also trained in self defence and subduing troublesome and aggressive people. So they had plenty of non-lethal options available to them, which they declined to use. So, again, how does all of this somehow justify killing this guy? I've been looking ever since Ferguson hit the news, and I can't find any mention of police (in that area) being armed with Tasers. I'm not saying that they're not, but I can't find anything that says that they are either. [....snip ....] ETA: Ok, watched the video again looking for Tasers. Out of all the officers walking around, a dozen or so, I only saw two. I wasn't able to see if either of the 1st responders had one, they never got close enough to the camera to tell for sure. St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson seems to confirm that Tasers were available to officers who chose not to use them: "Certainly a Taser is an option that's available to the officers, but Tasers aren't 100 percent," Dotson said. "So you've got an individual with a knife who's moving towards you, not listening to any verbal commands, continues, says, 'shoot me now, kill me now.' Tasers aren't 100 percent. if that Taser misses, that [individual] continues on and hurts an officer." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/20/kajieme-powell-shooting_n_5696546.html (my emphasis) The general point I was making is that there were non-lethal options available to the police in question, who chose not to use them. I appreciate that it all took place in a matter of seconds but even so it appears that the police's first and only strategy was to (a) rely on firearms as soon as they were out of the car; and (b) to shoot first and ask questions later. Here in Sydney police have told me that they are trained to take immediate control of a situation and, once they commit themselves to a 'line in the sand' to never ever back down. It seems that the police in question here adopted a similar strategy. They tried to dominate the situation at gun point from the get go. That seems to have made a confrontation and the outcome (given the dead man's mental health problems) inevitable. One can only speculate as to what might have happened if the police hadn't taken such a hard line from the outset. It could have placed the officers in jeopardy, or it could have resulted in the situation being defused without lethal force being employed. We will never know. Whichever way I look at it, I can't help wondering why non-lethal options were not used as a first resort. The police outnumbered this guy and had non-lethal options available to them. Even given the 'never back down' policy of the Aussie police, incidents such as this are very rare here. The police here are armed at all times, but rarely draw their weapons. Is it the case that, in this instance, the police were far too hasty in drawing their weapons and using those weapons?

Kirata -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/22/2014 4:57:40 AM)
I think some people confuse the police with asylum aides. I can appreciate the analogy, but they're not. Consequently, surviving in America requires a certain minimal level of intelligence. Two functioning brain cells will do, but only one won't. An instructional video was posted on the "Rioting" thread, but I'll link it here for your convenience. It will help you to understand American society and may even be of some benefit if you ever choose to visit. How not to get your ass kicked by the police K.

tweakabelle -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/22/2014 5:05:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata I think some people confuse the police with asylum aides. I can appreciate the analogy, but they're not. Consequently, surviving in America requires a certain minimal level of intelligence. Two functioning brain cells will do, but only one won't. An instructional video was posted on the "Rioting" thread, but I'll link it here for your convenience. It will help you to understand American society and may even be of some benefit if you ever choose to visit. How not to get your ass kicked by the police K. Thank you for the amusing travel tip. Why am I not surprised to see that you have problems with someone suggesting that the police do NOT apply a policy of shooting first and asking questions later? I know that you are pro-gun and all that but even allowing for that, a police policy of shooting first and asking questions later ought to ring an alarm bell or two for you.

Lucylastic -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/22/2014 5:08:40 AM)
That you accept that the cops can kill you for jay walking, mistaken identity, being mentally ill etc etc ad nauseam, IS the problem SUCH freedom conform or die....yay btw maybe that vid should be taught in kindergarten...only to the poor and minorities tho..[8\|]

Kirata -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/22/2014 5:15:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle a police policy of shooting first and asking questions later ought to ring an alarm bell or two for you. The police always ask first. You just don't understand the idiom. In America, when an armed officer holding you at gunpoint says, "Get down on the ground!" that means, "Would you care to get down on the ground and avoid being shot?" K.

Kirata -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/22/2014 5:20:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic That you accept that the cops can kill you for jay walking, mistaken identity, being mentally ill etc etc ad nauseam, IS the problem Accept. Killing someone. For jaywalking. You could at least try making up something plausible. K.

Lucylastic -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/22/2014 5:22:17 AM)
you try first

tweakabelle -> RE: Kajime powells death by cop caught on tape (8/22/2014 5:47:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle a police policy of shooting first and asking questions later ought to ring an alarm bell or two for you. The police always ask first. You just don't understand the idiom. In America, when an armed officer holding you at gunpoint says, "Get down on the ground!" that means, "Would you care to get down on the ground and avoid being shot?" K. Thank you for the translation tips. And for disabusing me of the delusion that the USA was a free country, not a police State. Are you saddened that despite the widespread of ownership of guns upon which you relied to prevent government tyranny, the USA seems to have ended up as a tyranny/Police State (by your account)? Which is more galling I wonder - the failure of gun ownership to protect you from tyranny or the tyranny itself?

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