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RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/5/2014 10:37:55 PM   
subrosaDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

grammar and spelling is not a reliable indication of intelligence

I can deal with some pretty messy word salads served up by people for whom English is a second language. But for native speakers, verbal ability and intelligence are highly correlated. Granting that some people are simply lazy, that is still far from a compliment, and often they just as lazy intellectually. More useful, perhaps, considering the venue, you may also care to know that there is an inverse correlation between verbal ability and psychopathy.

That said, I don't usually correct people unless they are making a show of how "intelligent" they think they are.

K.




When people are able to write to try hard to make good impressions with the audiences to communicate, with and writing, is hardest for smarter people, they are smart and inside of brains, but they might not always to choose the write word that doesn't mean they aren't intelligent.

---
Not very clear, is it? Sure you can exclude commas, use slang, inject a bit of patois now and again, but if no one knows what you are talking about because you lack a fundamental ability to logically express your thoughts, then you aren't intelligent (excepting neuropsychological disorders). My "sentence" above proves that. It took me quite a while to write that because forcing myself to write incoherently, illogically and ungrammatically required effort. It's antithetical to clear thinking. (And, yes, I've read writing as bad as what I constructed above.)


< Message edited by subrosaDom -- 9/5/2014 10:38:39 PM >

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RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/5/2014 11:09:43 PM   
LetstalkboutRAP3


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RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 2:44:52 AM   
MariaB


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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

grammar and spelling is not a reliable indication of intelligence

I can deal with some pretty messy word salads served up by people for whom English is a second language. But for native speakers, verbal ability and intelligence are highly correlated. Granting that some people are simply lazy, that is still far from a compliment, and often they are just as lazy intellectually. More useful, perhaps, considering the venue, you may also care to know that there is an inverse correlation between verbal ability and psychopathy.

That said, I don't usually correct people unless they are making a show of how "intelligent" they think they are.

K.


Yes, absolutely yes but language can’t be led by what’s written on paper - it has to be articulated by its speaker. The written word is extremely fragile. We only need to change one character and it will affect the whole message and that is why written word has no bearing on intelligence.

Imagine if Albert Einstein had been judged on his written word. He was as rotten at spelling as he was at grammar.


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RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 2:55:46 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Grammar is a good indication of an ability to communicate effectively.

If'n ya type 4 tawkin' ya need ta make cents.


I disagree. Text speak usually indicates age. All the youngsters seem to understand it but its us oldies who are having trouble!

Our language has been changing over the centuries. We neither write nor talk like we did a hundred years ago and its continued to change even since the turn of the new millennium. It’ll continue to change for years to come and there is no stopping it. Language continually evolves. If you resist you’re stifling one of the world’s most naturally creative things known to man.



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RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 3:29:49 AM   
subrosaDom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

Grammar is a good indication of an ability to communicate effectively.

If'n ya type 4 tawkin' ya need ta make cents.


I disagree. Text speak usually indicates age. All the youngsters seem to understand it but its us oldies who are having trouble!

Our language has been changing over the centuries. We neither write nor talk like we did a hundred years ago and its continued to change even since the turn of the new millennium. It’ll continue to change for years to come and there is no stopping it. Language continually evolves. If you resist you’re stifling one of the world’s most naturally creative things known to man.




Maria, "text-speak" does have a grammatical structure. So does Ebonics. That's what's missing from the discussion. Something ungrammatical does not parse according to the rules of particular language -- i.e., its grammar. Now English grammar is far richer than "text-speak-grammar" -- but it is internally coherent. The example I gave above is an example of an ungrammatical utterance. It's not possible to know what I mean -- you can only hazard a guess.

People are confusing languages they don't like (e.g., text-speak or Ebonics) with ungrammatical utterances in languages. You can be a genius and use the former, but you cannot have even moderate intelligence and use the latter (again, excepting neuropsych disorders).


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RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 3:54:00 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom


When people are able to write to try hard to make good impressions with the audiences to communicate, with and writing, is hardest for smarter people, they are smart and inside of brains, but they might not always to choose the write word that doesn't mean they aren't intelligent.

---
Not very clear, is it? Sure you can exclude commas, use slang, inject a bit of patois now and again, but if no one knows what you are talking about because you lack a fundamental ability to logically express your thoughts, then you aren't intelligent (excepting neuropsychological disorders). My "sentence" above proves that. It took me quite a while to write that because forcing myself to write incoherently, illogically and ungrammatically required effort. It's antithetical to clear thinking. (And, yes, I've read writing as bad as what I constructed above.)



No its not clear and I may find myself asking why.

Could it be a foreign speaker?. I know that I've made a pretty big fool of myself in with the written word in French. I also know what its like living in a foreign country and struggling with the language. I know how it feels to be teased about those difficulties.

Perhaps its lack of education. Plenty of kids, at least here in the UK, slip through the net because of environmental or personal problems. If they aren't stimulated mentally as children, they will have difficulty as adults, no matter how hard they try.

It could be that they have a learning disability. Perhaps its something common like Dyslexia or is it because they were oxygen starved at birth or had a brain injury later in life?. The thing is, I don't know their history and because I don't know their history, I have no right to point out to them that they are stupid. Will pointing this out change them? will it make them go away and try harder? of course it won't.

How can we mock and throw accusations of laziness at people we don't know?



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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 4:15:03 AM   
crazyml


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Joined: 7/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
How many people here believe that grammar and spelling is a reliable indication of intelligence?


On the whole, I think they are an indication of intelligence. I don't think they're a particularly reliable indicator, mind you.

It really depends on the type and number of spelling and grammar mistakes someone makes; in common with others on this thread, I don't pay much attention to the occasional slip-up on a forum, but in other contexts grammar and spelling are much more significant.

A single misspelling on an application for a research vacancy, however, would result in that candidate being discarded immediately.




quote:




Does a missing apostrophe stop you in your tracks?


Sometimes, yes. More often, no.

quote:


Do you wish that grammar and spelling pedants could relax?


I'm not aware that there's all that much, but that could be because I'm prone to the occasional burst of grammar pedantry myself.


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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 4:56:13 AM   
smileforme50


Posts: 1623
Joined: 1/24/2013
From: DelaWHERE(?)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

grammar and spelling is not a reliable indication of intelligence

I can deal with some pretty messy word salads served up by people for whom English is a second language. But for native speakers, verbal ability and intelligence are highly correlated. Granting that some people are simply lazy, that is still far from a compliment, and often they just as lazy intellectually. More useful, perhaps, considering the venue, you may also care to know that there is an inverse correlation between verbal ability and psychopathy.

That said, I don't usually correct people unless they are making a show of how "intelligent" they think they are.

K.




When people are able to write to try hard to make good impressions with the audiences to communicate, with and writing, is hardest for smarter people, they are smart and inside of brains, but they might not always to choose the write word that doesn't mean they aren't intelligent.

---
Not very clear, is it? Sure you can exclude commas, use slang, inject a bit of patois now and again, but if no one knows what you are talking about because you lack a fundamental ability to logically express your thoughts, then you aren't intelligent (excepting neuropsychological disorders). My "sentence" above proves that. It took me quite a while to write that because forcing myself to write incoherently, illogically and ungrammatically required effort. It's antithetical to clear thinking. (And, yes, I've read writing as bad as what I constructed above.)




But I think there is a difference between what you are talking about, and someone who just makes a number of spelling and grammar errors without straying too far from being understandable. If I read something like what you wrote above, I would just stop reading and write them off immediately, assuming that either English isn't their first language, or they are on some kind of nasty drug.

Someone who doesn't know the difference between "their", "there" and "they're" and consistently uses them incorrectly, comes across as just plain lazy.....or not the sharpest tack in the box.

A recent supervisor at my job could NEVER use the correct "there", and always got "its" and "it's" mixed up. But she was a total bitch and nobody would tell her. We would just email back and forth asking each other how she got to be the one in charge. Her poor writing skills (among other things) did not promote a lot of respect from her underlings.

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RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 5:35:19 AM   
smileforme50


Posts: 1623
Joined: 1/24/2013
From: DelaWHERE(?)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrosaDom


When people are able to write to try hard to make good impressions with the audiences to communicate, with and writing, is hardest for smarter people, they are smart and inside of brains, but they might not always to choose the write word that doesn't mean they aren't intelligent.

---
Not very clear, is it? Sure you can exclude commas, use slang, inject a bit of patois now and again, but if no one knows what you are talking about because you lack a fundamental ability to logically express your thoughts, then you aren't intelligent (excepting neuropsychological disorders). My "sentence" above proves that. It took me quite a while to write that because forcing myself to write incoherently, illogically and ungrammatically required effort. It's antithetical to clear thinking. (And, yes, I've read writing as bad as what I constructed above.)



No its not clear and I may find myself asking why.

Could it be a foreign speaker?. I know that I've made a pretty big fool of myself in with the written word in French. I also know what its like living in a foreign country and struggling with the language. I know how it feels to be teased about those difficulties.

Perhaps its lack of education. Plenty of kids, at least here in the UK, slip through the net because of environmental or personal problems. If they aren't stimulated mentally as children, they will have difficulty as adults, no matter how hard they try.

It could be that they have a learning disability. Perhaps its something common like Dyslexia or is it because they were oxygen starved at birth or had a brain injury later in life?. The thing is, I don't know their history and because I don't know their history, I have no right to point out to them that they are stupid. Will pointing this out change them? will it make them go away and try harder? of course it won't.

How can we mock and throw accusations of laziness at people we don't know?




I don't think we're talking about all these special cases. If someone here sends me a message or prefaces something they post here with something like "I'm sorry....English isn't my first language", then it's a lot easier to have some patience and put some effort into trying to understand what is being said.

Once again...sorry for being bitchy, but to me "lack of education" isn't a legitimate excuse for someone in their 30's or older. I think people blame way too much on their childhood and once you're in your 30's that excuse doesn't work anymore. There comes a point where a person needs to say to himself "I don't understand the language as well as everyone else does, I should learn it."

As far as the brain injury goes, that depends on how severe it is and what is affected. If it's severe enough so that all you can write is gibberish....then why bother? Most "brain injuries" affect a lot more that just grammar and spelling. It would be interesting to find someone who had a brain injury that left them completely functional otherwise, but caused them to lose only any understanding they once had of the difference between "their", "there" and "they're".

_____________________________

“Give it to me!” she yelled
“I’m so fucking wet! Give it to me now!”

She could scream all she wanted…..I was keeping the umbrella.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 5:50:43 AM   
ShaharThorne


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Joined: 2/24/2009
From: Somewhere in TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

There is a world of difference between US banks and Canadian banks.. in Canada if you use your bank card and don't have enough in your account they tell you your purchase can't be completed, here in the US the bank wont tell you that, instead it will let you buy the item(s) and then nail you with a $35 nsf fee plus interest plus, plus, plus.. US banks suck big time..


Last month, I 'accidentally' used my debit card to buy some meats and t-shirts and went over my limit. The bank let me purchase the stuff without any problems. I got home and transferred a few dollars from my savings to my debit card account. I rather face a $3 service charge on my savings account than the $35 overdraft fee.


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RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 6:49:16 AM   
ExiledTyrant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50


There comes a point where a person needs to say to himself "I don't understand the language as well as everyone else does, I should learn it."




Sometimes the thought crosses my mind, but I disregard it as soon as it comes along. Many years ago, when I should've been learning where exactly the comma goes, I designed and fabricated an atomizer that gave a 318% fuel mileage increase in combustion motors. At that time I didn't know where the commas went, but the guy writing the check knew exactly where to put them. That was probably the defining moment that rooted me in my ignorance and ever since my feeble little mind continues to rely on the check writers grasp of comma usage as I tinker on new check delivery systems.

Jus sayin


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RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 7:03:39 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		As someone who once charged $65/hour to place those commas for you, I thank you.

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RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 7:10:12 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I often over-punctuate, mis-punctuate, and make sloppy grammatical design decisions. I never did well at diagramming, parts of speech, agreement in tenses, or Strunk and White usage. These things were a matter of velleity with me.

But I always received high marks in English classes, for other attributes I hold. My stuff is euphonically pleasing.



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RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 7:24:47 AM   
ExiledTyrant


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From: Exiled
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

As someone who once charged $65/hour to place those commas for you, I thank you.


The chump change was worth it.

Jus sayin

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 7:53:47 AM   
MariaB


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Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: smileforme50

Once again...sorry for being bitchy, but to me "lack of education" isn't a legitimate excuse for someone in their 30's or older. I think people blame way too much on their childhood and once you're in your 30's that excuse doesn't work anymore. There comes a point where a person needs to say to himself "I don't understand the language as well as everyone else does, I should learn it."[/i


This is nothing more than a discussion. I don't see your comments as bitchy. I see them as naive because clearly you believe what you are saying.

quote:


As far as the brain injury goes, that depends on how severe it is and what is affected. If it's severe enough so that all you can write is gibberish....then why bother?


Deep breath, deep breath, deep breath..... Ok that was a tad harsh.
Should the mother of a Down Syndrome adult child tell him to stop writing letters because its just a load of gibberish?.

quote:


Most "brain injuries" affect a lot more that just grammar and spelling. It would be interesting to find someone who had a brain injury that left them completely functional otherwise, but caused them to lose only any understanding they once had of the difference between "their", "there" and "they're".


Dolch words (not including dolch nouns) are often challenging for a dyslexic person to learn. Especially the adults of today who didn't get a very specific type of teaching that our dyslexic children now receive. Unlike visual words, there is nothing concrete to connect them to. If you look at the written word of most dyslexics, you will notice that difficult words such as Tyrannosaurus Rex are spelt correctly. That is because the word can be visualized. Words like, 'their' and 'there' are often muddled and because word memory, especially dolch word, can be a real problem for dyslexic people. It doesn't tend to hold them back in their careers though. Dyslexic people often have the gift of speaking eloquently and providing someone proof reads their CV, they are just as likely to be picked out from an interview and employed successfully.


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RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 8:08:44 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

As someone who once charged $65/hour to place those commas for you, I thank you.


The chump change was worth it.

Jus sayin

I've since moved on and tripled my rates.

But it was good money for me at the time, and I'm grateful for it.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 8:14:40 AM   
ExiledTyrant


Posts: 4547
Joined: 12/9/2013
From: Exiled
Status: offline 		It's okay, this little project I'm working on now will triple the comas in the check, so it's all good.

Jus sayin

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RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 8:16:23 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

It's okay, this little project I'm working on now will triple the comas in the check, so it's all good.

Jus sayin


I've been in a coma for decades, and am not in need of triplication.

Thx, tho.


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RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 8:20:40 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

It's okay, this little project I'm working on now will triple the comas in the check, so it's all good.

Jus sayin

I love satisfied clients.

And I appreciate the engineering.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Grammatical Pedantry! - 9/6/2014 8:22:12 AM   
ExiledTyrant


Posts: 4547
Joined: 12/9/2013
From: Exiled
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

It's okay, this little project I'm working on now will triple the comas in the check, so it's all good.

Jus sayin


I've been in a coma for decades, and am not in need of triplication.

Thx, tho.



Hup, you have the advantage of being more cerebral comatose than most people that are alert and cogent.

Jus sayin


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Gnothi Seauton
To lead, first follow: Aurelius, Epictetus, Descartes, Sun Tzu, to name a few.

Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)

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Profile   Post #: 60
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