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RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/13/2014 8:36:35 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


The NYT laid out the players in the Middle East who might align to fight ISIS.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/10/world/middleeast/longtime-rivals-look-to-team-up-to-confront-isis.html?mabReward=RI%3A7&action=click&pgtype=Homepage®ion=CColumn&module=Recommendation&src=rechp&WT.nav=RecEngine

What would you do? How do you think this ends?


So complicated that George Bush saw todays situation very clearly back in 2007

AM I to believe that Bush was prophetic about the Iraq he invaded and screwed up ? Too bad he wasn't that wise back on 2003.

Bush saw the mess HE created and said we...need to mess around some more. Then we can let the Kenyan take the blame.

You forget, or more likely ignore that Bush admitted the initial strategy didn't work and that Obama admitted that the surge did.

Well one can call it a 'strategy' when many call it outright incompetence. The very idea of firing the Army, police and every Baathist in govt., rounding up as many innocent Iraqi patriots as not, imprisoning and torturing them. from 2003 - 2005 or 6, we were all witness to a complete civil breakdown in Iraq. As far as I am and many others observers can be concerned, that was the whole reason a surge was even necessary and I still am sure...it was.

So no matter what happened since, or what Obama did or didn't do...all bets were off and nobody can even grasp what the hell we were supposed to do given the country that Bush left. Most of the criticism we see and hear now is little more than unmitigated partisan bullshit.


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/13/2014 8:39:06 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
AM I to believe that Bush was prophetic about the Iraq he invaded and screwed up ? Too bad he wasn't that wise back on 2003.

Bush saw the mess HE created and said we...need to mess around some more. Then we can let the Kenyan take the blame.



Bush couldn't have screwed Iraq up TOO bad for Barack Obama to say back in 2011: 'We're Leaving Behind a Sovereign, Stable and Self-Reliant Iraq'

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2011/12/14/remarks-president-and-first-lady-end-war-iraq

Joe Biden:

quote:


“I am very optimistic about Iraq. I think it’s gonna be one of the great achievements of this administration. You’re gonna see 90,000 American troops come marchin’ home by the end of the summer. You’re gonna see a stable government in Iraq that is actually movin’ toward a representative government. I’ve been there 17 times now. I go about every two months, three months. I know every one of the major players in all the segments of that society. It’s impressed me. I’ve been impressed, how they have been deciding to use the political process, rather than guns, to settle their differences.”

Then Joe rode off on a unicorn down a road made of rainbows.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/06/12/watch-joe-biden-call-iraq-one-of-the-great-achievements-of-this-administration/

Post 81

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 9/13/2014 8:41:12 PM >

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/14/2014 7:29:37 AM   
Zonie63


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Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
I believe I have said current estimates are 3 million Muslims would need to die fighting. That is not all Muslims.

The world has an Islam problem. Not a Buddhism problem, Christianity problem, Judaism problem, or even a Wiccan problem, but an Islam problem. That’s not fear-mongering; it is the demonstrable reality borne out every single day around the world. Anyone who won’t acknowledge this is either in denial or in agreement with the jihadists’ aims.


It really depends on your point of view whether you think other religions pose a problem. There are those who might honestly believe that there's a problem with Christianity, especially some of the more fringe Christian groups. And then there are quite a few Christians who have a very serious problem with the Wiccan religion, although at least they don't burn witches anymore. And then there have been plenty of Christians, Muslims, and others who have had some rather negative attitudes towards Jewish people, some of which involved some rather elaborate conspiracy theories about how Jewish people were planning to take over the whole world - remarkably similar to what you and others are claiming about the Muslims.




(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/14/2014 9:58:28 AM   
cloudboy


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quote:

Rogers: The very idea of firing the Army, police and every Baathist in govt., rounding up as many innocent Iraqi patriots as not, imprisoning and torturing them. from 2003 - 2005 or 6, we were all witness to a complete civil breakdown in Iraq.


Treasonous incompetence and malfeasance all. Couple that with installing the sectarian Maliki as Prime Minister.

quote:

Zonie: It really depends on your point of view whether you think other religions pose a problem.


The Middle East is not our land, not in our sphere of influence, and not culturally aligned with our values. How do we ***on the outside with such a poor record of foreign involvement*** invest in that region now to promote stability?

I agree with the Obama ADM that the international community needs to be more involved and the actors of the region need to exercise more care and control to promote order and a workable liberty for the locals.

Arming factions just leads to long-term problems -- AKA Reagan arming the Taliban and galvanizing the Jihad movement back in the 1980s. In hindsight, communist rule looks a lot more palatable than Islamic extremism. In hindsight invading IRAQ was a poor decision. In hindsight destabilizing IRAN led to the IRANIAN revolution.

Heavy handed US colonial and military involvement in the region has not yielded peace, order, or democracy. In the region we have all the credibility of Ray Rice lecturing others on family values.


< Message edited by cloudboy -- 9/14/2014 10:02:13 AM >

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/14/2014 10:02:14 AM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

Rogers: The very idea of firing the Army, police and every Baathist in govt., rounding up as many innocent Iraqi patriots as not, imprisoning and torturing them. from 2003 - 2005 or 6, we were all witness to a complete civil breakdown in Iraq.


Treasonous incompetence and malfeasance all. Couple that with installing the sectarian Maliki as Prime Minister.

quote:

Zonie: It really depends on your point of view whether you think other religions pose a problem.


The Middle East is not our land, not in our sphere of influence, and not culturally aligned with our values. How do we ***on the outside with such poor record of foreign involvement*** invest in that region now to promote stability?

I agree with the Obama ADM that the international community needs to be more involved and the actors of the region need to exercise more care and control to promote order and a workable liberty for the locals.

Arming factions just leads to long-term problems -- AKA Reagan arming the Taliban and galvanizing the Jihad movement back in the 1980s. In hindsight, communist rule looks a lot more palatable than Islamic extremism. In hindsight invading IRAQ was a poor decision. In hindsight destabilizing IRAN led to the IRANIAN revolution.

Heavy handed US colonial and military involvement in the region has not yielded peace, order, or democracy. In the region we have all the credibility of Ray Rice lecturing others on family values.


And who do you expect to step up and take the lead?

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/14/2014 10:07:07 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		I'm with MNOT. There are no good options. I'm with OBAMA, too, in taking a deliberate, reluctant, internationalist approach. Aside from the Kurds, we lack reliable, enthusiastic partners in the region.


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/14/2014 10:43:32 AM   
Sanity


Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Heavy handed US colonial and military involvement in the region has not yielded peace, order, or democracy. In the region we have all the credibility of Ray Rice lecturing others on family values.



You will certainly agree with this then:


Jon Stewart Rips Obama’s Team America World Police ISIS Speech (Video)



_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/14/2014 6:26:41 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

I'm with MNOT. There are no good options. I'm with OBAMA, too, in taking a deliberate, reluctant, internationalist approach. Aside from the Kurds, we lack reliable, enthusiastic partners in the region.



So you agree that nobody will take the lead but we should wait for them anyway.
You agree with everything Obama says as soon as you find out he is going to say something.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/14/2014 7:16:10 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Arming factions just leads to long-term problems

So lend/lease was a big mistake.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/15/2014 7:31:06 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

Rogers: The very idea of firing the Army, police and every Baathist in govt., rounding up as many innocent Iraqi patriots as not, imprisoning and torturing them. from 2003 - 2005 or 6, we were all witness to a complete civil breakdown in Iraq.


Treasonous incompetence and malfeasance all. Couple that with installing the sectarian Maliki as Prime Minister.

quote:

Zonie: It really depends on your point of view whether you think other religions pose a problem.


The Middle East is not our land, not in our sphere of influence, and not culturally aligned with our values. How do we ***on the outside with such a poor record of foreign involvement*** invest in that region now to promote stability?


At this point, there's probably very little that we can do to promote stability. If we had stayed neutral and not taken sides with one faction or another, we might have had more credibility as an outside mediator. Moreover, we've taken sides with regimes which are decidedly undemocratic, tainting our position even further. How can we promote any kind of stability at all when our own position and policies are tainted and unstable themselves?

quote:


I agree with the Obama ADM that the international community needs to be more involved and the actors of the region need to exercise more care and control to promote order and a workable liberty for the locals.

Arming factions just leads to long-term problems -- AKA Reagan arming the Taliban and galvanizing the Jihad movement back in the 1980s. In hindsight, communist rule looks a lot more palatable than Islamic extremism. In hindsight invading IRAQ was a poor decision. In hindsight destabilizing IRAN led to the IRANIAN revolution.

Heavy handed US colonial and military involvement in the region has not yielded peace, order, or democracy. In the region we have all the credibility of Ray Rice lecturing others on family values.


In the final analysis, Americans will have to figure out exactly what they want in a foreign policy. We can't seem to decide whether we want to make the world safe for democracy or whether to just make it safe for big business. It's this kind of indecisive duplicity which has dominated our foreign policy throughout the Cold War and in the years since. We don't follow any consistent set of principles, and the people of the world have learned not to trust what American politicians say (just as the American people have learned).

If there are those who believe that America is an "empire" and advocate policies along those lines, then at the very least, that's the public face our government should display.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/15/2014 7:47:30 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
And who do you expect to step up and take the lead?


Who says that anybody has to take the lead? There have been plenty of civil wars and internal conflicts over the course of history in which we felt no pressing need to "step up and take the lead"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
So lend/lease was a big mistake.


Apples and oranges, although in the case of Lend-Lease, other countries had already stepped up to take the lead.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/15/2014 9:52:04 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
I believe I have said current estimates are 3 million Muslims would need to die fighting. That is not all Muslims.

The world has an Islam problem. Not a Buddhism problem, Christianity problem, Judaism problem, or even a Wiccan problem, but an Islam problem. That’s not fear-mongering; it is the demonstrable reality borne out every single day around the world. Anyone who won’t acknowledge this is either in denial or in agreement with the jihadists’ aims.


It really depends on your point of view whether you think other religions pose a problem. There are those who might honestly believe that there's a problem with Christianity, especially some of the more fringe Christian groups. And then there are quite a few Christians who have a very serious problem with the Wiccan religion, although at least they don't burn witches anymore. And then there have been plenty of Christians, Muslims, and others who have had some rather negative attitudes towards Jewish people, some of which involved some rather elaborate conspiracy theories about how Jewish people were planning to take over the whole world - remarkably similar to what you and others are claiming about the Muslims.



Are you seriously suggesting that Christians are currently beheading non-Christians, gunning them down, selling them into sex-slavery, kicking them out of their homes and countries, denying them basic human rights to life, liberty, and property, and embarking on gross violations of women's rights?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/15/2014 9:54:45 AM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		(this is how you snip!)
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


And who do you expect to step up and take the lead?


The cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys, of course!

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/15/2014 10:26:23 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		The shortcomings and failures of Western interventions in the ME are many and have been documented ad nauseum. See the Iraq debacle for example.

The patient building of an international alliance, with the active involvement of local partners, is the correct way to confront IS. Building such an alliance to support and strengthen regional Govts and other anti-IS local elements is slow hard work and far from 'sexy'. However if one is interested in success over IS and not concerned with jingoistic nationalism it is the only way to go.

The cowboy approach to the ME was tried by Bush the Dumber and failed miserably. If IS is to be eliminated, a wide alliance of local and international partners is the only way that offers the prospect of lasting success.

_____________________________



(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/15/2014 10:36:52 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		FR

Why dont you look at the violence and deadly shit happening in VERY 'Christian" countries in south america?
How many of them are murdering triple the numbers per capita of even the US???
Its caused those "damn illegals" to flood the border hasnt it???? wasnt there a crisis of Guatemalan, Honduran, El Salvadoran refugee children???...oh I mean filthy illegals trying to get over the mexico us border? bringing scabies and ebola and other terrorists? oh thats right, its blamed on socialists...and ignored as a large (over 89% In most cases) population of "christian" countries.

Are you trying to say no body has ever been beheaded in the north americas?
really???
is beheading the new"extreme" in deaths here ? or only cos it happened from IS and therefore all muslims need to die???????????

A white man killing his five children under the age of 8 in South Carolina didnt cause a stir on here, why?? Oh he is white american and probably a christian.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/09/12/police-say-man-willfully-and-maliciously-killed-his-five-kids-then-drove-around-for-days-with-the-bodies-in-his-suv/


Nick Berg barely got a paragraph or two on here(ok barely 33 mentions), when he was beheaded a few years back....(http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1044487)reason is, it was BBO (Before Barack Obama)

puhleeze,
I have no love of Any organised religion as it is, but to claim the "right" to eradicate a religion didnt work out well last time did it.
Eradicating terrorists is one thing, eradicating or advocating eradication of people for being of a certain religion is really pathetically purile

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 9/15/2014 10:47:00 AM >

_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/15/2014 11:01:18 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

(this is how you snip!)
quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


And who do you expect to step up and take the lead?


The cheese-eating-surrender-monkeys, of course!



LOL, all funny and everything, even a couple Islamic countries are going to go on the bombing runs.

The consensus thing is helping a great deal.


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/15/2014 11:35:46 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

FR

Why dont you look at the violence and deadly shit happening in VERY 'Christian" countries in south america?
How many of them are murdering triple the numbers per capita of even the US???
Its caused those "damn illegals" to flood the border hasnt it???? wasnt there a crisis of Guatemalan, Honduran, El Salvadoran refugee children???...oh I mean filthy illegals trying to get over the mexico us border? bringing scabies and ebola and other terrorists? oh thats right, its blamed on socialists...and ignored as a large (over 89% In most cases) population of "christian" countries.

Are you trying to say no body has ever been beheaded in the north americas?
really???
is beheading the new"extreme" in deaths here ? or only cos it happened from IS and therefore all muslims need to die???????????

A white man killing his five children under the age of 8 in South Carolina didnt cause a stir on here, why?? Oh he is white american and probably a christian.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/09/12/police-say-man-willfully-and-maliciously-killed-his-five-kids-then-drove-around-for-days-with-the-bodies-in-his-suv/


Nick Berg barely got a paragraph or two on here(ok barely 33 mentions), when he was beheaded a few years back....(http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1044487)reason is, it was BBO (Before Barack Obama)

puhleeze,
I have no love of Any organised religion as it is, but to claim the "right" to eradicate a religion didnt work out well last time did it.
Eradicating terrorists is one thing, eradicating or advocating eradication of people for being of a certain religion is really pathetically purile



thats all left over from the pusher, St. Wrinklemeat peddling his drugs down there.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/15/2014 12:25:12 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63


quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
And who do you expect to step up and take the lead?


Who says that anybody has to take the lead? There have been plenty of civil wars and internal conflicts over the course of history in which we felt no pressing need to "step up and take the lead"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
So lend/lease was a big mistake.


Apples and oranges, although in the case of Lend-Lease, other countries had already stepped up to take the lead.

Are you actually saying that you think this is only a "civil war" when ISIS has made no secret of the fact that the establishment of a new Caliphate is only the beginning, that the ultimate target is the West? Do you honestly believe that if we wait till they consolidate their position that they will suddenly become reasonable and can be "managed" as Obama puts it.

_____________________________

Government ranges from a necessary evil to an intolerable one. Thomas Paine

People don't believe they can defend themselves because they have guns, they have guns because they believe they can defend themselves.

(in reply to Zonie63)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/15/2014 3:44:27 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well, I sort of do, cuz I remember thats what Iran wanted, thats what Korea wanted, thats what the Soviet Union wanted and thats what the nutsuckers wanted, but nobody gets 'er done, and they run out of steam as the paranoia of there non-existence increases.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to BamaD)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Foreign Policy -- The Complicated Road Ahead - 9/15/2014 4:04:09 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Are you seriously suggesting that Christians are currently beheading non-Christians, gunning them down, selling them into sex-slavery, kicking them out of their homes and countries, denying them basic human rights to life, liberty, and property, and embarking on gross violations of women's rights?


Do you want me to produce a list of Christians doing some of the above, I suspect not as you know it happens on a bigger scale than admitted.

You keep spouting the same tired mantra with arguments that are little more than bullshit.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 100
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