quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

Absolutely legitimate. The medical establishment isn't keen on treatment that doesn't make them oodles of money, and a very skilled chiropractor knows that the better he/she is, the more driven they are to ease and eliminate the clients ailment, the more damage it does to their livelihood. Western philosophy chiropractic medicine is a money mill, offering relief to clients, but not arresting the issue or eliminating the issue. Eastern philosophy isn't so much a money mill. The target of this post, I'm pretty confident, is more Eastern rather than western. So I'll get directly to your point:

Which is it CD, heal or profit?

Like every other health care enterprise, it's a mixture of both.

I wouldn't have done it for 31 years if it didn't earn me a living. But, is it making me wealthy? Nope. Do I need to be wealthy? Nope...I just want to fix people as best as I can and when I know I can't, I send them elsewhere.

I have a working relationship with the hospital and with several
M. D.s. Why. Because I know my limitations and the M. D.s know theirs. I know what I can fix, what I can help with but not fix, and what I can't fix. Am I going to heal diabetic neuropathy? No, because I can't heal diabetes. Neither can medicine. Can I manage diabetic neuropathy in conjunction with the patients medical doctor? Sure can...and I do.

utter quackery.
Diabetic neuropathy is a degenerative condition of the nerves and cannot be managed or treated by mechanical manipulation of the bones. You are at best using the placebo effect to convince people you have done something when you haven't.

Here are the facts, in the 19th century a nutty father and sun dreamed up a metaphysical, i.e. magical, theory that manipulating bones could cure disease. This was based on absolutely nothing.

It turns out that there is only one thing that cracking the back helps. It does relieve lower back pain. Not upper back or neck just lower back. So if you lumbar hurts maybe go and let a Chiropractor crack it.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-end-of-chiropractic/

How lovely. An article from a blog...thought you didn't like blogs or is that only when they don't agree with you? Written by three chiropractic doctors. Calling chiropractic "quackery". But that wasn't exactly what they said, was it Ken? Nor is it how they live and work. What they said was that the BEGINNING of chiropractic is steeped in myth and questionable concepts (Innate Intelligence and magnetism). But then...so are some other professions: accupunture (Chi...alignment of the body with water, fire, earth, metal, wood), medicine itself (relief of noxious "humors" in the body among others), osteopathy (the Law of the Artery) .
They also noted that many in the profession cling to those old beliefs and they are right, they do. They are called straights. There are others though...mixers (such as myself) who've moved on to a more modern concept of what "Innate" is...what subluxation is. Then, there are the reform mixers such as these three whose views are that all of the old be discarded completely...disavowed...and only the new, modern, medically-acceptable chiropractic doctor be allowed to exist. (not so much Drs. Morgan and Wyatt but Mirtz).
Some interesting things about these three that you won't find in the article:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

Absolutely legitimate. The medical establishment isn't keen on treatment that doesn't make them oodles of money, and a very skilled chiropractor knows that the better he/she is, the more driven they are to ease and eliminate the clients ailment, the more damage it does to their livelihood. Western philosophy chiropractic medicine is a money mill, offering relief to clients, but not arresting the issue or eliminating the issue. Eastern philosophy isn't so much a money mill. The target of this post, I'm pretty confident, is more Eastern rather than western. So I'll get directly to your point:

Which is it CD, heal or profit?

Like every other health care enterprise, it's a mixture of both.

I wouldn't have done it for 31 years if it didn't earn me a living. But, is it making me wealthy? Nope. Do I need to be wealthy? Nope...I just want to fix people as best as I can and when I know I can't, I send them elsewhere.

I have a working relationship with the hospital and with several
M. D.s. Why. Because I know my limitations and the M. D.s know theirs. I know what I can fix, what I can help with but not fix, and what I can't fix. Am I going to heal diabetic neuropathy? No, because I can't heal diabetes. Neither can medicine. Can I manage diabetic neuropathy in conjunction with the patients medical doctor? Sure can...and I do.

utter quackery.
Diabetic neuropathy is a degenerative condition of the nerves and cannot be managed or treated by mechanical manipulation of the bones. You are at best using the placebo effect to convince people you have done something when you haven't.

Here are the facts, in the 19th century a nutty father and sun dreamed up a metaphysical, i.e. magical, theory that manipulating bones could cure disease. This was based on absolutely nothing.

It turns out that there is only one thing that cracking the back helps. It does relieve lower back pain. Not upper back or neck just lower back. So if you lumbar hurts maybe go and let a Chiropractor crack it.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-end-of-chiropractic/

How lovely. An article from a blog...thought you didn't like blogs or is that only when they don't agree with you? Written by three chiropractic doctors. Calling chiropractic "quackery". But that wasn't exactly what they said, was it Ken? Nor is it how they live and work. What they said was that the BEGINNING of chiropractic is steeped in myth and questionable concepts (Innate Intelligence and magnetism). But then...so are some other professions: accupunture (Chi...alignment of the body with water, fire, earth, metal, wood), medicine itself (relief of noxious "humors" in the body among others), osteopathy (the Law of the Artery) .
They also noted that many in the profession cling to those old beliefs and they are right, they do. They are called straights. There are others though...mixers (such as myself) who've moved on to a more modern concept of what "Innate" is...what subluxation is. Then, there are the reform mixers such as these three whose views are that all of the old be discarded completely...disavowed...and only the new, modern, medically-acceptable chiropractic doctor be allowed to exist. (not so much Drs. Morgan and Wyatt but Mirtz).
Some interesting things about these three that you won't find in the article:

You clearly didn't read the article. You're simply attacking it.
It links to a journal article, in a journal of chiropractic no less, that documents that there is no basis in science for the most basic claims of what you claim to do. None. They go on to establish that the only established treatment that mechanical manipulation of the bones actually treats is acute lower back pain.

Since you have claimed to treat more than acute lower back pain you are a quack and that is simple fact. I'm sorry if that upsets you or endangers the scam by which you make a living but it is the truth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

Absolutely legitimate. The medical establishment isn't keen on treatment that doesn't make them oodles of money, and a very skilled chiropractor knows that the better he/she is, the more driven they are to ease and eliminate the clients ailment, the more damage it does to their livelihood. Western philosophy chiropractic medicine is a money mill, offering relief to clients, but not arresting the issue or eliminating the issue. Eastern philosophy isn't so much a money mill. The target of this post, I'm pretty confident, is more Eastern rather than western. So I'll get directly to your point:

Which is it CD, heal or profit?

Like every other health care enterprise, it's a mixture of both.

I wouldn't have done it for 31 years if it didn't earn me a living. But, is it making me wealthy? Nope. Do I need to be wealthy? Nope...I just want to fix people as best as I can and when I know I can't, I send them elsewhere.

I have a working relationship with the hospital and with several
M. D.s. Why. Because I know my limitations and the M. D.s know theirs. I know what I can fix, what I can help with but not fix, and what I can't fix. Am I going to heal diabetic neuropathy? No, because I can't heal diabetes. Neither can medicine. Can I manage diabetic neuropathy in conjunction with the patients medical doctor? Sure can...and I do.

utter quackery.
Diabetic neuropathy is a degenerative condition of the nerves and cannot be managed or treated by mechanical manipulation of the bones. You are at best using the placebo effect to convince people you have done something when you haven't.

Here are the facts, in the 19th century a nutty father and sun dreamed up a metaphysical, i.e. magical, theory that manipulating bones could cure disease. This was based on absolutely nothing.

It turns out that there is only one thing that cracking the back helps. It does relieve lower back pain. Not upper back or neck just lower back. So if you lumbar hurts maybe go and let a Chiropractor crack it.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-end-of-chiropractic/

How lovely. An article from a blog...thought you didn't like blogs or is that only when they don't agree with you? Written by three chiropractic doctors. Calling chiropractic "quackery". But that wasn't exactly what they said, was it Ken? Nor is it how they live and work. What they said was that the BEGINNING of chiropractic is steeped in myth and questionable concepts (Innate Intelligence and magnetism). But then...so are some other professions: accupunture (Chi...alignment of the body with water, fire, earth, metal, wood), medicine itself (relief of noxious "humors" in the body among others), osteopathy (the Law of the Artery) .
They also noted that many in the profession cling to those old beliefs and they are right, they do. They are called straights. There are others though...mixers (such as myself) who've moved on to a more modern concept of what "Innate" is...what subluxation is. Then, there are the reform mixers such as these three whose views are that all of the old be discarded completely...disavowed...and only the new, modern, medically-acceptable chiropractic doctor be allowed to exist. (not so much Drs. Morgan and Wyatt but Mirtz).
Some interesting things about these three that you won't find in the article:

You clearly didn't read the article. You're simply attacking it.
It links to a journal article, in a journal of chiropractic no less, that documents that there is no basis in science for the most basic claims of what you claim to do. None. They go on to establish that the only established treatment that mechanical manipulation of the bones actually treats is acute lower back pain.

Since you have claimed to treat more than acute lower back pain you are a quack and that is simple fact. I'm sorry if that upsets you or endangers the scam by which you make a living but it is the truth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Actually Ken, I did read the article. As for attacking, I simply printed the truth about three Doctors of Chiropractic who attack the ORIGINS of Chiropractic and those that are straights. As for their belief as to what the rest of the profession should do...according to them...if you can find the organization they've managed to convince of that...oh wait, one of them SITS on the board of the American Chiropractic Association...or the chiropractic college they've managed to convince that their way is the true way...oh wait, two of them teach at chiropractic colleges. One of them even writes books with introductions contradicting what you say he said in the journal.

I do treat more than lower back pain, I can cite articles out of peer-reviews journals that cite the efficacy of treating neck pain, headaches, upper back pain, joint pain with chiropractic care. But...there'd be no convincing you. Just like there's no convincing someone that maybe they ought to reconsider alternative treatment when medicine tells them "they can't do anything further".

Trust me Ken...the fact that someone like you thinks I'm a quack? I'll give you several guesses how high your opinion stacks up against the opinion of the thousands I've treated through 31 years and the positive opinions of others on this board. As for the doctors' opinions, I'll take the opinions of doctors like Scott Haldeman, MD., PhD, D.C., Dan Dock, D.C. D.A.B.C.O., D.A.B.C.R., and thousands of others who are mixers and not reform mixers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

Ask Harvey Lillard, I'm sure the question wouldn't fall on deaf ears.

Jus sayin

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Actually Ken, I did read the article. As for attacking, I simply printed the truth about three Doctors of Chiropractic who attack the ORIGINS of Chiropractic and those that are straights. As for their belief as to what the rest of the profession should do...according to them...if you can find the organization they've managed to convince of that...oh wait, one of them SITS on the board of the American Chiropractic Association...or the chiropractic college they've managed to convince that their way is the true way...oh wait, two of them teach at chiropractic colleges. One of them even writes books with introductions contradicting what you say he said in the journal.

I do treat more than lower back pain, I can cite articles out of peer-reviews journals that cite the efficacy of treating neck pain, headaches, upper back pain, joint pain with chiropractic care. But...there'd be no convincing you. Just like there's no convincing someone that maybe they ought to reconsider alternative treatment when medicine tells them "they can't do anything further".

Trust me Ken...the fact that someone like you thinks I'm a quack? I'll give you several guesses how high your opinion stacks up against the opinion of the thousands I've treated through 31 years and the positive opinions of others on this board. As for the doctors' opinions, I'll take the opinions of doctors like Scott Haldeman, MD., PhD, D.C., Dan Dock, D.C. D.A.B.C.O., D.A.B.C.R., and thousands of others who are mixers and not reform mixers.

So the indisputable fact that what you're doing has no basis won't deter you from doing it. And you even have the audacity to get righteous about it. That is truly pathetic. at least have the decency to admit that all you're doing is selling placebo and PT.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Actually Ken, I did read the article. As for attacking, I simply printed the truth about three Doctors of Chiropractic who attack the ORIGINS of Chiropractic and those that are straights. As for their belief as to what the rest of the profession should do...according to them...if you can find the organization they've managed to convince of that...oh wait, one of them SITS on the board of the American Chiropractic Association...or the chiropractic college they've managed to convince that their way is the true way...oh wait, two of them teach at chiropractic colleges. One of them even writes books with introductions contradicting what you say he said in the journal.

I do treat more than lower back pain, I can cite articles out of peer-reviews journals that cite the efficacy of treating neck pain, headaches, upper back pain, joint pain with chiropractic care. But...there'd be no convincing you. Just like there's no convincing someone that maybe they ought to reconsider alternative treatment when medicine tells them "they can't do anything further".

Trust me Ken...the fact that someone like you thinks I'm a quack? I'll give you several guesses how high your opinion stacks up against the opinion of the thousands I've treated through 31 years and the positive opinions of others on this board. As for the doctors' opinions, I'll take the opinions of doctors like Scott Haldeman, MD., PhD, D.C., Dan Dock, D.C. D.A.B.C.O., D.A.B.C.R., and thousands of others who are mixers and not reform mixers.

So the indisputable fact that what you're doing has no basis won't deter you from doing it. And you even have the audacity to get righteous about it. That is truly pathetic. at least have the decency to admit that all you're doing is selling placebo and PT.

There is NO indisputable fact, Ken...no matter how much you want there to be. Stop and think. Ken...if that was what they were saying in reality...And NOT what I said they are saying earlier...why then are they still teaching...writing ...And practicing chiropractic? Unless somehow, you think these 3 are the ONLY honest chiropractic doctors?

From either side, there is no indisputable fact. Face it, Ken...if I am a quack, so are your sources and none of us are to be believed. But thanks for the last...personal...attack.

quote:

Conclusion: There is a significant lack of evidence to fulfill the basic criteria of causation. This lack

of crucial supportive epidemiologic evidence prohibits the accurate promulgation of the

chiropractic subluxation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

Ask Harvey Lillard, I'm sure the question wouldn't fall on deaf ears.

Jus sayin

The absurdity of that claim is so ridiculous it best to just consign it to the dustbin of history as one of many crazy ass claims made over the centuries with no real evidence to support it and forget about it.

To start with, there is no connection between the ears and the spine, none at all. No auditory nerves go to the spinal column so cracking the back couldn't possibly have relieved a hearing problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Actually Ken, I did read the article. As for attacking, I simply printed the truth about three Doctors of Chiropractic who attack the ORIGINS of Chiropractic and those that are straights. As for their belief as to what the rest of the profession should do...according to them...if you can find the organization they've managed to convince of that...oh wait, one of them SITS on the board of the American Chiropractic Association...or the chiropractic college they've managed to convince that their way is the true way...oh wait, two of them teach at chiropractic colleges. One of them even writes books with introductions contradicting what you say he said in the journal.

I do treat more than lower back pain, I can cite articles out of peer-reviews journals that cite the efficacy of treating neck pain, headaches, upper back pain, joint pain with chiropractic care. But...there'd be no convincing you. Just like there's no convincing someone that maybe they ought to reconsider alternative treatment when medicine tells them "they can't do anything further".

Trust me Ken...the fact that someone like you thinks I'm a quack? I'll give you several guesses how high your opinion stacks up against the opinion of the thousands I've treated through 31 years and the positive opinions of others on this board. As for the doctors' opinions, I'll take the opinions of doctors like Scott Haldeman, MD., PhD, D.C., Dan Dock, D.C. D.A.B.C.O., D.A.B.C.R., and thousands of others who are mixers and not reform mixers.

So the indisputable fact that what you're doing has no basis won't deter you from doing it. And you even have the audacity to get righteous about it. That is truly pathetic. at least have the decency to admit that all you're doing is selling placebo and PT.

There is NO indisputable fact, Ken...no matter how much you want there to be. Stop and think. Ken...if that was what they were saying in reality...And NOT what I said they are saying earlier...why then are they still teaching...writing ...And practicing chiropractic? Unless somehow, you think these 3 are the ONLY honest chiropractic doctors?

From either side, there is no indisputable fact. Face it, Ken...if I am a quack, so are your sources and none of us are to be believed. But thanks for the last...personal...attack.

From the article you claimed to have read

quote:

Conclusion: There is a significant lack of evidence to fulfill the basic criteria of causation. This lack

of crucial supportive epidemiologic evidence prohibits the accurate promulgation of the

chiropractic subluxation.

That means the theory upon which you operate is complete bunk. All you're doing is placebo and PT. That is very well established. When you claimed to treat a nerve disease it proved you were a bunko artist.

quote:

As for treating the symptoms of diabetic neuropathy, my scope of practice...overseen by the State Department of Regulatory Agencies allows me to do that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant


No, Ken...what this means is exactly what I said earlier...the original theory of "innate"and the original definition of Chiropractic subluxation no longer hold. I've said that and have explained further that subluxation is an evolving concept, as stated by the head of one of the organization's that one of your sources works with. By the way, I do treat numbness and tingling...down the arms and legs. This is the result of neural dysfunction, sometimes due to disc bulging affecting...surprise...the nerves. Sometimes, there are other musculoskeletal causes. As for treating the symptoms of diabetic neuropathy, my scope of practice...overseen by the State Department of Regulatory Agencies allows me to do that.

You believe your sources, Ken...I'll believe mine. As I assume everyone here will.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Reading over some posts in another thread got me thinking about this topic.

I have never been keen on . . . Chiropracy? Chiropractism? Well, what ever word means the practice of chiropractic medicine. I have heard - somewhere, sometime - that the medical establishment isn't keen on the idea. I've only been to one once, at the urging of my mother and sister who both swear by the practice, when I was having problems with a leg becoming sore and numb.

I was bent and twisted in various ways while having to listen to a sales pitch on something called a "colon purge" for only $499.99. I said I'd think about it and get back to him and I limped out of his office feeling worse than when I went in. This, I was told, was normal but in a few days I'd feel better than ever. I didn't. Oh I recovered from the bending and twisting but the leg problem remained. An interview by my normal doctor revealed the culprit to be my old (my really old) comfy chair - it was pinching a nerve in my leg. The solution was a new comfy chair. Leg problem gone. Needless to say, I decided against the colon purge (why would I want to purge myself of my colon anyway? It's useful).

My wariness of Chiropractors increased recently when my mother began experiencing severe knee pain. She was unable to put any weight on it without excruciating pain. Walking was near impossible. Despite by own concerns, she insisted on going to the chiropractor. When she came out she said she was feeling better. She didn't even make it to the parking lot before it came back worse than before.

This time I convinced her to see her regular doctor. The solution turned out to be a cortisone shot. She's told me that she is now rethinking her devotion to the Chiropractor. As for me, I am convinced that Chiropracy (whatever) is, at best, quackery and in many cases an outright scam. I am interested in hearing other people's opinions on it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Actually Ken, I did read the article. As for attacking, I simply printed the truth about three Doctors of Chiropractic who attack the ORIGINS of Chiropractic and those that are straights. As for their belief as to what the rest of the profession should do...according to them...if you can find the organization they've managed to convince of that...oh wait, one of them SITS on the board of the American Chiropractic Association...or the chiropractic college they've managed to convince that their way is the true way...oh wait, two of them teach at chiropractic colleges. One of them even writes books with introductions contradicting what you say he said in the journal.

I do treat more than lower back pain, I can cite articles out of peer-reviews journals that cite the efficacy of treating neck pain, headaches, upper back pain, joint pain with chiropractic care. But...there'd be no convincing you. Just like there's no convincing someone that maybe they ought to reconsider alternative treatment when medicine tells them "they can't do anything further".

Trust me Ken...the fact that someone like you thinks I'm a quack? I'll give you several guesses how high your opinion stacks up against the opinion of the thousands I've treated through 31 years and the positive opinions of others on this board. As for the doctors' opinions, I'll take the opinions of doctors like Scott Haldeman, MD., PhD, D.C., Dan Dock, D.C. D.A.B.C.O., D.A.B.C.R., and thousands of others who are mixers and not reform mixers.

So the indisputable fact that what you're doing has no basis won't deter you from doing it. And you even have the audacity to get righteous about it. That is truly pathetic. at least have the decency to admit that all you're doing is selling placebo and PT.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Do I believe in the adjustment and the effect it can have on the nervous system and the musculoskeletal health of the body? Yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Are you able to relieve the numbness?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
Are you able to relieve the numbness?

How would that possibly work?

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
I have no idea. It was just a hopeful question.

To be honest, the notion that a chiropractor might be able to address neuropathy doesn't strike me as any odder than that hyperbaric oxygen therapy, prescribed by an "orthodox" surgeon, might promote the last bit of healing needed on my backside.