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RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 10/26/2014 2:50:19 PM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

I'm gonna' take the OP sincerely.

I was online back when real world manners were still the protocol of the day. That changed over 10 years ago. I wish the world met my level of protocol but it doesn't. Unlike the days of introductions by personal referrals or meeting in person at a club where someone is talking to you face to face, this is the internet... the fast food version of match making. So you get a fast food quality crowd with fast food manners. It's CollarSpace and that is not a formal setting at all.

DarkSteven's comments about how to write a letter that gets a response in this informal setting was great advice. It is the way I approach my letters. Focus on something more casual you may have in common. It feels safer to the reader. "Do you attend the local munch, love to meet you there" usually goes a lot further than asking about relationship or kink interests in a letter of introduction.

Further to the point of your perspective in this informal environment is the title of your thread. It is a proclamation instead of a question like, "Can you help me understand why I'm not getting responses to my letters? Basically its troll bait, which accounts for the biased perspective in many replies.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to Driverkitty)

Post #: 61

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 10/27/2014 3:54:20 AM

starkem

Posts: 159
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline

Well said.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 62

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/12/2014 3:08:30 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

I think this boils down to interpretation of what constitutes courtesy.

My take would be that no one here owes me anything, so no reply no bother.

But, I'd imagine you're not the only here who believes it's courteous to reply to posts.

Either way, the sky hasn't fallen in, and I'm wondering how long it took you to type that post:

Deliberating whether to start a thread: 2 minutes.

Typing the post, including stopping for breath and thought: 12 minutes.

Re-read for grammar and spelling mistakes: 6 minutes.

That's 20 minutes, mate, which as far as I can tell will bring you no reward whatsoever.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Driverkitty)

Post #: 63

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/12/2014 7:12:24 PM

Bhruic

Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Driverkitty

So you have an interest in finding a Heavy Sadist/Daddy Dom/Couple to serve/Transsexual Martian with green skin/Time Traveler from Galifrey. Great! I wish you all the luck in finding what you're looking for, I truly do. We should all be so lucky to find that which completes and satisfies us....

All that aside... you include a face pic in your profile, and a picture is worth a thousand words. Perhaps they just felt like you were not their type? Attraction is primarily, or at least initially, a visual chemistry... and if that isn't there, then why bother?

If real life was like the internet, with strangers walking up all the time and demanding my attention, I'd probably get to ignoring a lot of them and joggin on too.

_____________________________

pronounced "VROOick"

(in reply to Driverkitty)

Post #: 64

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/13/2014 1:01:45 AM

ThePrincessKali

Posts: 424
Joined: 9/19/2012
Status: offline

Sigh. No response IS a response. This happens to me on vanilla dating sites as well as on CM. I get messages from guys who apparently had sent me a message in the past telling me how rude I am for not saying "thanks but no thanks." When I signed up for my first vanilla online dating site several years ago I learned very quickly (and by quickly I mean maybe an hour) that saying thanks but no thanks will get you a lot of really mean, threatening, and insanely offensive responses. I had a guy tell me I should be raped after I politely told him that I wasn't interested in dating a man twenty years my senior.

Also you have to understand that women get hundreds of messages daily on online dating sites. At any given time I have a few hundred unread messages on the one vanilla site I'm on. I have responded to maybe two dozen messages in six months. So that's a couple thousand "no thank you's" I should send out based on your logic. I'm not rude. I just don't have the time nor do I see a point.

Here's an article I like to share with my male friends who whine about not getting the responses they want when it comes to online dating. Take a moment to see it from our perspective.

http://jezebel.com/man-poses-as-woman-on-online-dating-site-barely-lasts-1500707724

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 65

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/13/2014 5:34:30 AM

smileforme50

Posts: 1623
Joined: 1/24/2013
From: DelaWHERE(?)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I used to respond to people to say "thanks but no thanks" but even the nice notes sometimes turned really nasty after that, or really nice guys would pester. Like, "Oh, I see, but maybe we could just be friends then?" or ask follow up questions. Or keep the conversation going. At some point, it HAS to end, and they have to get offended. There is no way to win, you have to be the bad guy. For every 1 guy that will take it as a nice gesture to say "I am sorry I am not interested" there are 5 that will either send off a nasty response, or stalk you, or start bugging you, or ask you "Can you take a moment and explain to me why?" or say "Do you have any friends that you may be able to refer me to?"

The answer is that a polite no doesn't end it most of the time. It's the opposite. it just keeps it going. And usually I have ten other unanswered emails and a limited amount of time, and there's the one guy I DO want to spend 10-15 minutes devoting my time and attention to, not the guy I am rejecting who writes to me 2 minutes after I sent the "polite rejection" asking me for clarification and won't go away and then ten minutes later is calling me a cunt.

That is why we just ignore it most of the time.

Blame the other guys.

Akasha

OMG this is SO true. I even got so frustrated by it one time that I put an entry in my journal about it.....

One thing I read very often in people's journals (Hint: I read primarily journals of male Dominants) ...is a frustration with not getting any response to an introductory message. A lot of Dominants have said that they wish that submissives would send them something....even if it is "No thanks".

Well....from the viewpoint of a submissive.....I agree with this. I can understand why they feel this way. You don't want to be left wondering. It's nice to know exactly where you stand.

But.....another thing I have noticed very often is that when I send a message of "Not interested", the matter isn't simply dropped. I get a response of "Why not?" They insist on a specific reason.

My guess would be that this is the primary reason most submissives don't respond at all to someone they aren't interested.

If you would really rather have a response of "no thanks, not interested" instead of just being ignored (which is understandable)....I would hope that people would follow their own words and actually be satisfied with a simple "No thanks, not interested".

_____________________________

“Give it to me!” she yelled
“I’m so fucking wet! Give it to me now!”

She could scream all she wanted…..I was keeping the umbrella.

(in reply to AAkasha)

Post #: 66

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/13/2014 6:38:58 AM

kallisto

Posts: 1185
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Killerangel

Women have learned not to reply if they are not interested because they then get mail from men being butthurt in return.

Exactly. I have responded "thanks but no thanks" or "thanks for your message, but not interested" or whatever the polite response was to get another message
with "You're fat" (which I think is so thought out) or "You're a worthless, no good, stinking whore who ......." And then I just delete those messages only to get a 3rd
with the jerk-off trying to be even more rude than he was the time before.

So now I stick to the no response thing. That only prompts one rude message of me not responding.

(in reply to Killerangel)

Post #: 67

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/13/2014 6:45:30 AM

ExiledTyrant

Posts: 4547
Joined: 12/9/2013
From: Exiled
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kallisto

"You're a worthless, no good, stinking whore who ......."

It was just foreplay, seriously. I thought it would set the tone for the evening. Why are you always so sensitive?

Jus wunderin

_____________________________

Gnothi Seauton
To lead, first follow: Aurelius, Epictetus, Descartes, Sun Tzu, to name a few.

Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)

(in reply to kallisto)

Post #: 68

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/13/2014 8:26:49 AM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Killerangel
Women have learned not to reply if they are not interested because they then get mail from men being butthurt in return.

This is my take on it, the unfortunate reality is that being turned down no matter how nicely is unpleasant and there are people on the internet who get outright verbally abusive in response so it doesn't take for people to learn just not to respond.

(in reply to Killerangel)

Post #: 69

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/13/2014 9:44:10 AM

YouName

Posts: 271
Joined: 10/22/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

quote:

ORIGINAL: kallisto

"You're a worthless, no good, stinking whore who ......."

It was just foreplay, seriously. I thought it would set the tone for the evening. Why are you always so sensitive?

Jus wunderin

Some individuals actually include those very words on their profiles. The foreplay hasn't even started.

(in reply to ExiledTyrant)

Post #: 70

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/13/2014 5:20:09 PM

SuiGenerix

Posts: 5
Joined: 7/7/2013
Status: offline

quote:

Girls, I understand that you get a zillion and one messages a day, I really do.

But apparently the ramifications of that are lost on you. This "girl" receives between 100 and 150 messages a day. Assuming 50 of those are of the 'sincere' sort you posit, what you're saying is that I should spend 2,000 seconds every day putting salve on the male ego. That's 34 minutes a day. And in point of fact, yes, my time is "THAT infinitely precious." I can think of innumerable things I'd rather do with my time than spend five hours a week penning the epistolarly equivalent of a band-aid and boo boo kiss.

quote:

Whoa, fella. Back the hell right up. You are NOT entitled to a response. Got it? When you start with that premise, and blame your own anger issues on the women who rebuff you for whatever reason, you're heading down the Elliot Rodger path of being angry because you don't get the responses you wanted.

DarkSteven at his loveliest. The culture of entitlement is indeed a ubiquitous problem. George Sodini, Elliot Rodgers, et al make the news, but in between those rampages, thousands more women are murdered every year because of it.

www.deathandtaxesmag.com/221702/elliot-rodgers-is-the-product-of-a-society-that-teaches-that-women-are-evil-and-men-are-entitled/

http://shriverreport.org/the-aggrieved-entitlement-of-elliot-rodger/

quote:

It's all about courtesy - something that dominants flat-out demand, and submissives, by and large, I think appreciate. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all learn to embrace that?

I'd be among the first to agree that courtesy is important; I conduct my own life both online and off with a mindful adherence to it. But genuine courtesy has as its foundation the principle that we regard the other person as a person equal to ourselves. And if you're going to complain about your own time expenditure while in the same breath insisting that women's time isn't valuable, as well as enter the arena with the above-delineated problematic sense of entitlement, that simply doesn't qualify as according the other person equality. Hence it's not actually about courtesy. That's part of why it's difficult to regard your woeful plaint as truly belonging to the O tempora, o mores! genre, rather than the er- 'butthurt' one.

(in reply to Driverkitty)

Post #: 71

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/13/2014 5:39:10 PM

SuiGenerix

Posts: 5
Joined: 7/7/2013
Status: offline

quote:

Here's an article I like to share with my male friends who whine about not getting the responses they want when it comes to online dating. Take a moment to see it from our perspective.

http://jezebel.com/man-poses-as-woman-on-online-dating-site-barely-lasts-1500707724

#ThisShouldBeRequiredReadingForEveryManAlive

(in reply to ThePrincessKali)

Post #: 72

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/13/2014 6:53:59 PM

kallisto

Posts: 1185
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

quote:

ORIGINAL: kallisto

"You're a worthless, no good, stinking whore who ......."

It was just foreplay, seriously. I thought it would set the tone for the evening. Why are you always so sensitive?

Jus wunderin

And what an evening it was!!!!

(in reply to ExiledTyrant)

Post #: 73

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/13/2014 11:41:02 PM

seekingreality

Posts: 599
Joined: 8/11/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Driverkitty

And this goes for men and women. No one is immune here. If a message seems genuine, respond. It only takes a minute to write "Hey, thanks, but your approach was a little soft for me. Good luck'. Or 'I appreciate your message, but I am looking for something softer'. It might just be that the person who wrote thought YOU might appreciate the tone they were taking, even if it's not what they would usually extend. We all want to get others' attention - give them a second chance, maybe tell them what you had in mind - that might be what they were the whole time.

Dude, this part of your posting is the reason women don't send "thanks but no thanks" letters. You don't see a "thanks for no thanks" as an end; but as an opening to change their mind.

You're living in a fantasy world here. When women don't respond it's not because "your approach is a little soft for me." It's because they find you physically unattractive and/or uninteresting.

That's not fun to accept, but such is life.

(in reply to Driverkitty)

Post #: 74

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/14/2014 9:59:52 AM

RockaRolla

Posts: 1153
Joined: 1/20/2014
From: South Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingreality

quote:

ORIGINAL: Driverkitty

And this goes for men and women. No one is immune here. If a message seems genuine, respond. It only takes a minute to write "Hey, thanks, but your approach was a little soft for me. Good luck'. Or 'I appreciate your message, but I am looking for something softer'. It might just be that the person who wrote thought YOU might appreciate the tone they were taking, even if it's not what they would usually extend. We all want to get others' attention - give them a second chance, maybe tell them what you had in mind - that might be what they were the whole time.

Dude, this part of your posting is the reason women don't send "thanks but no thanks" letters. You don't see a "thanks for no thanks" as an end; but as an opening to change their mind.

You're living in a fantasy world here. When women don't respond it's not because "your approach is a little soft for me." It's because they find you physically unattractive and/or uninteresting.

That's not fun to accept, but such is life.

So it's courteous to respond to every inane message you get, but not courteous to take no for an answer?

Fuck this guy.

_____________________________

~Roxie

(in reply to seekingreality)

Post #: 75

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/14/2014 10:32:23 AM

inkedone

Posts: 155
Joined: 9/17/2014
From: Fritch Texas
Status: offline

quote:

So it's courteous to respond to every inane message you get, but not courteous to take no for an answer?

The history of etiquette reads like an elaborate Dr. Who episode, with historical figures from Confucius to Louis XIV to George Washington throwing their hat in to civilize the youthfully ignorant or the gentleman at court. Although the term officially popped into the English language in the 1700s there is debate as to the exact moment of its birth. But, many politely agree that an Ancient Egyptian text from the 25th century BC, The Instruction of Ptahhotep, was in fact one of the first books ever written. How’s that for a dramatic entrance? Etiquette as ancient history. Blam.

The Instruction of Ptahhotep was intended to pass on the wisdom of Ptahhotep’s ancestors to his son. In fact, educating our young men is the primary focus of most of the referenced texts about etiquette. Even two of our founding fathers, Benjamin Franklin and George Washington, were keen to share their tips on codes of conduct for young men. Which begs the question. Where my ladies at?

In 1952, after five years of research, Amy Vanderbilt’s Complete Book of Etiquette was published, introducing us to an all new modern voice of etiquette. Born in New York City, educated in Switzerland, and an active writer from the age of 16, Amy Vanderbilt was the perfect combination of culture, class, and sass for mid-century America. And that is why although it may not be ancient history, this is where my passion for classic etiquette.Relishing the more antiquated corners and finding a way to negotiate them into the modern reality of tweets, twerking and Tinder. What is the best way to navigate the waters? I my opinion it depends on personal preference. Trying to adhere to the "Golden Rule" treat others as one would want to be treated; however, I do agree that "No" should be "No" and not up for debate if one does decide to answer with a polite "Thanks, but no thank you".

_____________________________

inked
"Follow your bliss and the universe will open doors for you where there were none".

(in reply to RockaRolla)

Post #: 76

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/14/2014 10:33:52 AM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I used to respond to people to say "thanks but no thanks" but even the nice notes sometimes turned really nasty after that, or really nice guys would pester. Like, "Oh, I see, but maybe we could just be friends then?" or ask follow up questions. Or keep the conversation going. At some point, it HAS to end, and they have to get offended. There is no way to win, you have to be the bad guy. For every 1 guy that will take it as a nice gesture to say "I am sorry I am not interested" there are 5 that will either send off a nasty response, or stalk you, or start bugging you, or ask you "Can you take a moment and explain to me why?" or say "Do you have any friends that you may be able to refer me to?"

The answer is that a polite no doesn't end it most of the time. It's the opposite. it just keeps it going. And usually I have ten other unanswered emails and a limited amount of time, and there's the one guy I DO want to spend 10-15 minutes devoting my time and attention to, not the guy I am rejecting who writes to me 2 minutes after I sent the "polite rejection" asking me for clarification and won't go away and then ten minutes later is calling me a cunt.

That is why we just ignore it most of the time.

Blame the other guys.

Akasha

Yeah, I know, I know.

Given all the comments here that I've ever seen, and with due deference to both the regular complaints of women and of men, I've come to the conclusion that the opening gambits of one person to another in private cmail should be friendly, intelligent, humorous, knowledgeable (about the person to whom you're writing) but, above all, brief.

Really, it should be the internet equivalent of a quick, friendly flirt to the object of one's desire at the bar in a pub. No more, no less. She or he will, or will not, 'bite'. If not, you just walk away. That's all. Nothing else seems to work - or, at least, it hasn't, for me.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 12/14/2014 10:34:34 AM >

_____________________________

http://www.domme-chronicles.com

(in reply to AAkasha)

Post #: 77

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/14/2014 10:37:24 AM

shiftyw

Posts: 2837
Joined: 6/6/2013
From: The Shire
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SuiGenerix

quote:

Here's an article I like to share with my male friends who whine about not getting the responses they want when it comes to online dating. Take a moment to see it from our perspective.

http://jezebel.com/man-poses-as-woman-on-online-dating-site-barely-lasts-1500707724

#ThisShouldBeRequiredReadingForEveryManAlive

While a favorite article of mine...I in general get "ITS FAKE! STAGED! FEMINIST PROPAGANDA! I MEAN ITS ON JEZEBEL FOR CHRIST'S SAKE!" usually followed with a link bringing down jezebel on an MRA website

I'm truly surprised that didn't happen here...

(in reply to SuiGenerix)

Post #: 78

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/14/2014 12:21:32 PM

seekingreality

Posts: 599
Joined: 8/11/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RockaRolla

quote:

ORIGINAL: seekingreality

quote:

ORIGINAL: Driverkitty

And this goes for men and women. No one is immune here. If a message seems genuine, respond. It only takes a minute to write "Hey, thanks, but your approach was a little soft for me. Good luck'. Or 'I appreciate your message, but I am looking for something softer'. It might just be that the person who wrote thought YOU might appreciate the tone they were taking, even if it's not what they would usually extend. We all want to get others' attention - give them a second chance, maybe tell them what you had in mind - that might be what they were the whole time.

Dude, this part of your posting is the reason women don't send "thanks but no thanks" letters. You don't see a "thanks for no thanks" as an end; but as an opening to change their mind.

You're living in a fantasy world here. When women don't respond it's not because "your approach is a little soft for me." It's because they find you physically unattractive and/or uninteresting.

That's not fun to accept, but such is life.

So it's courteous to respond to every inane message you get, but not courteous to take no for an answer?

Fuck this guy.

Well look how he responds in this read:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Driverkitty

DarkSteven and Gauge - Thank you for your well-thought out, reasoned replies. While I don't agree with everything you've said, you go make some very good points, which I will consider. I appreciate the time you took to write out real answers, rather than nonsense drivel which adds nothing to the conversation.

IrishMist - Without sarcasm, I am so sorry for whatever happened in your life that caused you to feel that indifference, hostility and vulgarity are positive character traits worth cultivating. I sincerely hope your wounds heal cleanly.

If you give him an "acceptable" response, he grudgingly listens while still getting in shots. If you give an "unacceptable" response, he psychoanalyzes what's wrong about you.

(in reply to RockaRolla)

Post #: 79

RE: The Death Of Courtesy - 12/14/2014 12:27:25 PM

RockaRolla

Posts: 1153
Joined: 1/20/2014
From: South Florida
Status: offline

The OP sent me a message after my first response in this thread, thanking me for my input and saying it was a reasoned response. It seemed sincere enough at the time.

_____________________________

~Roxie

(in reply to seekingreality)

Post #: 80

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