RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman

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IIapetus -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/5/2014 7:12:18 PM)
When I first read the OP, I quickly dismissed it as wildly anachronistic. I think on watching it, and reflecting a little on my own experience, a more nuanced response is warranted. Let me build a modicum of credibility: whilst I am not an authority on New York, being an import within the last 18 months, I feel I have enough NY neuroticism in me to be worthy of brief comment. In some neighborhoods, and some smaller areas of other neighborhoods, you will get talked at. (Note the 'at', rather than 'to', here.) Even as a male, I've been spoken at by men, albeit not in an 'attentional' way, rather, in a confrontational way. Even having said that, quite recently I received an not altogether negative comment, from one of a group of men, sat on the stoop of an apartment building in the City College area. I think some part of it is cultural, in that talking to the unknown stranger on the street, be it a woman, or me after I've been swimming, is not the taboo I, or perhaps you, might think it is. The other element, in my opinion, is youth. Some adolescents like to make their thoughts known, to anyone and everyone. I have much less to say on this last point, having never been an adolescent myself. That aside, have I witnessed any of this particular behavior towards a woman in a neighborhood I wouldn't, at least slightly, expect it? I can't say I have in the last six months. The caveat I'd attach is that in my opinion, the vast majority of New Yorkers are so completely absorbed in their own little world, that I'd only expect an overt acknowledgment of the existence of other people, if said person sat on their lap in a subway car. The vast majority of people are soo headphones in, book open, candy crushingly focused on where they are going, that I, or anyone else, scarcely exist. Let alone deigning to make any more than a glancing acknowledgment. And by that I mean a 0.25 second pause in whatever they were doing. And even this, I feel in the majority of cases, would only occur if someone had the audacity to make even the slightest of accidental contact with them. Some additional credibility-building evidence of my neuroticism, albeit of British, or New York, origin, from my daily pilgrimage to and from work: If I am sat on a seat and someone sits next to me when there are other open seats - with no adjacent passenger - available, my consternation will last hours. Playing candy crush with the volume on and no headphones makes you the devil incarnate. And finally, full disclosure - even if it discredits all of the above and I am forever precluded from joining the club of true New Yorkers: I still stop and help lost tourists. And I always stop to help a lost PANTHER. That's just who I am.

Zonie63 -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/5/2014 8:29:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: sissyhypnoslut quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug But, we're talking here about a video showing predominantly YOUNGER people engaging in this behavior. The stories recounted here have mentioned the same thing. Essentially, we're speaking about the baby boomers being the grandparents of the majority of these people. When they die off, how will things change? Apparently, there's a group of 17 year olds in New Hampshire that thinks this is "ok behavior". They think it's ok behavior because they are rewarded for it. When you're 17, there's not a whole lot of consequences for your actions, and there's a whole lot of upside to acting like a douche when it's a proven tactic for getting laid. So do we blame the douche, the girls who enable his behavior by reacting favorably to it, or the parents who raised them all? Do we just blame society at that point? Or do we stop trying to pin blame, and start looking for solutions? Personally I think it has to start with blaming the douche, if they are called out when people see it happen and it becomes a shameful thing to do for them then they will stop (eventually maybe). The trouble is I don't actually want to do that myself because I'm scared of them. And if I'm scared of them, how can I expect other people not to be. It exists because society lets it exist as a whole, men and women. I think it would be mostly pointless criminalising it because how could you police it? it might work in some way as to send a message but I don't think it could really be policed. It might seem like a simple matter of just calling them out when they do it, assuming that they even have any sense of shame at all. But I don't think that's a viable solution, not because other men are necessarily scared of them, but they may also be concerned about their standing with their male peers. It's not that they fear violence as much as they fear ostracism from their male peer group (which might seem worse from a male point of view). They might also care more about their friends' feelings than the feelings of some random stranger walking down the street whom they'll probably never see again. I'm not saying that it's right, but it's the reality of what one would face when trying to deal with this problem on an individual peer level. Also, since this is a problem rooted in society itself and pervasive throughout popular culture, the one lone individual saying that it's not okay to do this is drowned out by many more voices throughout society who say it is okay - or at best, send out mixed messages. I suppose they could just pass a law against it, although as you say, it would be very difficult to enforce. There may already be old ordinances already on the books in some jurisdictions. I recall reading recently about a 1905 Houston law which forbade (among other things) making "google eyes" at women walking down the street. quote: I really don't think there are many girls who do react favourably, I think the number that don't far outweighs them. I am annoyed a bit when I see a woman saying they like being treated by strangers in that way, when they are alone and vulnerable especially, but it IS their choice to like it. The rest of us don't get the choice, it just happens to us regardless so I don't think it should be that the men get to choose to do it. I think the blame has to be on the one who is doing it, rather than the one who is reacting to it. Overall, I agree with what you're saying. However, as far as blame goes, blaming the one who is doing it is really only the first step. It's an oversimplified solution to a complex problem. I'm not saying that we should blame the victim either, nor is it even a matter of "blaming society" as much as trying to identify those aspects of society and culture which might need to be changed. I think sissyhypnoslut makes a good point in that, as a society, some men and boys aren't taught very well as to what "being a man" truly means. I don't think it's because there aren't enough male teachers or that there aren't enough male role models. It might be because of conflicting ideas of what a positive male role model would entail. And with a lot of kids being raised by TV and other forms of "edutainment," that can run up and down the spectrum. Another aspect of this which should not go unmentioned is that overall, we're a generally ill-mannered society anyway. This is especially true in the larger cities like New York where "fuck you" is how people greet each other. But even in smaller cities and communities, there might tend to be a generally rude, discourteous, and unsympathetic atmosphere. A lot of people have forgotten how to say "please" and "thank you," or other simple rules of common courtesy and decorum. This may not be directly related to the issues raised in this thread, although it's definitely one of the many components when examining the overall problem at hand. It contributes to the more hardened attitudes one might see on the streets, so people who might otherwise care about the problem end up not caring. A lot of people just plain don't give a shit about their fellow human beings, as we live in a kind of dog-eat-dog, me-first, he-who-dies-with-the-most-toys-wins society. It doesn't have to be that way, and it probably shouldn't be that way. However, in my experience, I've found that trying to argue against it is an uphill battle, mainly because so many embrace this mentality and revel in it. Some people might just resign themselves and say "that's the way it is" and leave it at that. That may be why some people won't be inclined to challenge it that much, because they might see it as a dead-end argument which ends up going nowhere. This thread is kind of an example of that.

sexyred1 -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/5/2014 10:51:57 PM)
This thread was quite interesting until someone mentioned the term "feminazi" which I detest. Way to go in keeping the discussion intellectual. Also remember that this topic will never be agreed upon and looked at equally, simply because men and women are unable to walk a mile or 10 hours in each other's shoes.

PeonForHer -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 4:01:49 AM)
quote: Also remember that this topic will never be agreed upon and looked at equally, simply because men and women are unable to walk a mile or 10 hours in each other's shoes. Why? Why can't they do that - or won't do that?

SweetForDaddy -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 4:27:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: shiftyw http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/11/05/philadelphia-police-release-new-videos-as-search-for-abducted-woman-continues/ ^ Some good news. Glad she's still alive

SweetForDaddy -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 4:42:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 It might seem like a simple matter of just calling them out when they do it, assuming that they even have any sense of shame at all. But I don't think that's a viable solution, not because other men are necessarily scared of them, but they may also be concerned about their standing with their male peers. It's not that they fear violence as much as they fear ostracism from their male peer group (which might seem worse from a male point of view). They might also care more about their friends' feelings than the feelings of some random stranger walking down the street whom they'll probably never see again. I'm not saying that it's right, but it's the reality of what one would face when trying to deal with this problem on an individual peer level. Also, since this is a problem rooted in society itself and pervasive throughout popular culture, the one lone individual saying that it's not okay to do this is drowned out by many more voices throughout society who say it is okay - or at best, send out mixed messages. I suppose they could just pass a law against it, although as you say, it would be very difficult to enforce. There may already be old ordinances already on the books in some jurisdictions. I recall reading recently about a 1905 Houston law which forbade (among other things) making "google eyes" at women walking down the street. quote: I really don't think there are many girls who do react favourably, I think the number that don't far outweighs them. I am annoyed a bit when I see a woman saying they like being treated by strangers in that way, when they are alone and vulnerable especially, but it IS their choice to like it. The rest of us don't get the choice, it just happens to us regardless so I don't think it should be that the men get to choose to do it. I think the blame has to be on the one who is doing it, rather than the one who is reacting to it. Overall, I agree with what you're saying. However, as far as blame goes, blaming the one who is doing it is really only the first step. It's an oversimplified solution to a complex problem. I'm not saying that we should blame the victim either, nor is it even a matter of "blaming society" as much as trying to identify those aspects of society and culture which might need to be changed. I think sissyhypnoslut makes a good point in that, as a society, some men and boys aren't taught very well as to what "being a man" truly means. I don't think it's because there aren't enough male teachers or that there aren't enough male role models. It might be because of conflicting ideas of what a positive male role model would entail. And with a lot of kids being raised by TV and other forms of "edutainment," that can run up and down the spectrum. Another aspect of this which should not go unmentioned is that overall, we're a generally ill-mannered society anyway. This is especially true in the larger cities like New York where "fuck you" is how people greet each other. But even in smaller cities and communities, there might tend to be a generally rude, discourteous, and unsympathetic atmosphere. A lot of people have forgotten how to say "please" and "thank you," or other simple rules of common courtesy and decorum. This may not be directly related to the issues raised in this thread, although it's definitely one of the many components when examining the overall problem at hand. It contributes to the more hardened attitudes one might see on the streets, so people who might otherwise care about the problem end up not caring. A lot of people just plain don't give a shit about their fellow human beings, as we live in a kind of dog-eat-dog, me-first, he-who-dies-with-the-most-toys-wins society. It doesn't have to be that way, and it probably shouldn't be that way. However, in my experience, I've found that trying to argue against it is an uphill battle, mainly because so many embrace this mentality and revel in it. Some people might just resign themselves and say "that's the way it is" and leave it at that. That may be why some people won't be inclined to challenge it that much, because they might see it as a dead-end argument which ends up going nowhere. This thread is kind of an example of that. I think just awareness goes a long way. People are asking in the comments for YouTube - what are they going to do with the donations etc, are they going to pay people not to do this and silly stuff that like that, and I think all they actually want to do is raise awareness. It has opened a massive public debate and although it may seem to be a dead-end argument, a lot of people are thinking about it and about how they and others act in a public space. quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 This thread was quite interesting until someone mentioned the term "feminazi" which I detest. Way to go in keeping the discussion intellectual. Also remember that this topic will never be agreed upon and looked at equally, simply because men and women are unable to walk a mile or 10 hours in each other's shoes. I have no idea if its harder for men to empathise with women, or vice versa, maybe some people in general lack the ability to empathise. I get that its not the most important issue in the world and there's a lot of other more serious things going on, but some of these incidents can be an opening to things of a more serious nature and I hate to see it brushed off. I don't think we should ignore any bad thing that happens. I don't think we have to be extreme in the handling of them either though, just simple awareness can go a long way. I think the figures for people that have watched the video are over 30 million now and I think that must have made some kind of change, hopefully for the better.

Zonie63 -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 6:33:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy I think just awareness goes a long way. People are asking in the comments for YouTube - what are they going to do with the donations etc, are they going to pay people not to do this and silly stuff that like that, and I think all they actually want to do is raise awareness. It has opened a massive public debate and although it may seem to be a dead-end argument, a lot of people are thinking about it and about how they and others act in a public space. I see what you're saying, although I would contend that awareness (or lack thereof) is not the really the issue. As mentioned earlier, this is an old issue, so I think it's safe to say that most adults in America are at least aware of the problem. A lot of people know about it but simply don't care. As I mentioned above, there's an overriding atmosphere of apathy, selfishness, and "me first" in this society, so a person might ask "Why should I care about this issue? What's in it for me?" I know it sounds horrible, but a lot of people aren't inclined to do the right thing just for its own sake. quote: ORIGINAL: SweetForDaddy quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 This thread was quite interesting until someone mentioned the term "feminazi" which I detest. Way to go in keeping the discussion intellectual. Also remember that this topic will never be agreed upon and looked at equally, simply because men and women are unable to walk a mile or 10 hours in each other's shoes. I have no idea if its harder for men to empathise with women, or vice versa, maybe some people in general lack the ability to empathise. I get that its not the most important issue in the world and there's a lot of other more serious things going on, but some of these incidents can be an opening to things of a more serious nature and I hate to see it brushed off. I don't think we should ignore any bad thing that happens. I don't think we have to be extreme in the handling of them either though, just simple awareness can go a long way. I think the figures for people that have watched the video are over 30 million now and I think that must have made some kind of change, hopefully for the better. It might have changed a few people's minds, although from what I'm seeing in the comments (here and elsewhere), it seems that it's also reinforced the beliefs people already had before seeing the video. As far as empathy goes, that can also be a two-way street. A man might consider his own trials and tribulations in life and think "Hey, nobody empathizes with me, so why should I empathize with anyone else?"

Greta75 -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 7:05:11 AM)
I got to say, it is in absolute shock that quite huge number, infact, as of now, 100% of my caucasian locally based vanilla male friends, who I thought were super nice guys and gentlemanly, is trivializing this whole thing, saying that they are making too much of a big deal out of it, when I brought up the subject to them. Like WTF? In comparison to local men, and infact, based on internet alone, in our local online media when featured this story, overwhelming majority of local men in my country called the men in video animals, basically disapproving of their behaviour. Whereas you go youtube and so many western men are saying this behaviour should be okay. But with local men, if a woman got raped or molested, the first thing they always ask is how was she dressed, and they do often believe without a doubt that the dressing plays a major part. So they got their backwards parts too. But they are all in universal agreement that cat calling is unacceptable or basically any of those objectifying comments in the video are not civilized behaviour. Really cultural difference huh? But I really don't understand the western men who will not indulge in such behaviour themselves, would support the behaviour saying we're over-reacting. They gotta know on some level it's not okay, if they don't indulge in it themselves, but they just won't admit it that it's not acceptable.

ashjor911 -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 7:36:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 And the youtube comments are crazy, some men are saying she's ugly, like WTF? She's beautiful! I am not saying she is ugly, or anything but I would not say anything to her because I am not attractive to dark hair girls or any girl who play with her hair 99.9% of the time when she is walking in my personal opinion she is not beautiful, ... but that is just me [8D] I have a thing for blondes [8D]

Greta75 -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 7:51:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ashjor911 I am not saying she is ugly, or anything but I would not say anything to her because I am not attractive to dark hair girls or any girl who play with her hair 99.9% of the time when she is walking in my personal opinion she is not beautiful, ... but that is just me [8D] I have a thing for blondes [8D] Yes, but it's really interesting so many on youtube are saying the girl in NYC is better looking than the girl in NZ. Of course different men has different taste, I can say universally for sure, based on local men taste here, most do not find NYC female attractive at all, but overweight, and if she does a body fat analysis, which is the most accurate way to measure if you're healthy or not, she would be in the extremely overweight category for sure, looking at her shape, but most will prefer NZ female.

Charles6682 -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 8:08:16 AM)
At least that lady who was kidnapped in Philly recently has been rescued and her kidnapper is now sitting behind bars. Justice has been served in this situation. Those cameras made all the difference.

littleladybug -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 8:14:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 Yes, but it's really interesting so many on youtube are saying the girl in NYC is better looking than the girl in NZ. Of course different men has different taste, I can say universally for sure, based on local men taste here, most do not find NYC female attractive at all, but overweight, and if she does a body fat analysis, which is the most accurate way to measure if you're healthy or not, she would be in the extremely overweight category for sure, looking at her shape, but most will prefer NZ female. You can speak for all men in Singapore? And the gal in NYC is hardly "extremely overweight"....

camille65 -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 8:17:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: ashjor911 I am not saying she is ugly, or anything but I would not say anything to her because I am not attractive to dark hair girls or any girl who play with her hair 99.9% of the time when she is walking in my personal opinion she is not beautiful, ... but that is just me [8D] I have a thing for blondes [8D] Yes, but it's really interesting so many on youtube are saying the girl in NYC is better looking than the girl in NZ. Of course different men has different taste, I can say universally for sure, based on local men taste here, most do not find NYC female attractive at all, but overweight, and if she does a body fat analysis, which is the most accurate way to measure if you're healthy or not, she would be in the extremely overweight category for sure, looking at her shape, but most will prefer NZ female. I disagree that body fat analysis or BMI numbers are the most accurate measure of health. People can be lean and still unhealthy. Perhaps I'm unusual but she doesn't appear overweight much less extremely overweight to me, she has wide hips sure but I don't see her as heavy looking.

Charles6682 -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 8:18:29 AM)
I think its easy to note that the lady in the NYC video was clearly being stalked by a few guys. Like the one who kept following her for about 2 minutes, then stop. I don't think that video was a result of "femnazi", if that is the term one wants to say. I don't personally agree with the extreme femnazis myself. However, to act like this lady wasn't harassed to a degree, is displaying willful ignorance and is a reminder of the 1950's. Hey, maybe some people like to live that way today, They have that right. However, for some who have decided to live in 2014 and not 1914, they have that right as well. I can't expect the "good old boy" club to disappear altogether. At least the "good old boy" club has lost a lot of its club members to sanity and true equality. I am sure glad I was born in this generation and not the generation of 150 years ago.

Greta75 -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 8:31:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 People can be lean and still unhealthy. But body fat analysis will detect unhealthiness in a skinny fat person as well. That's why it's the most accurate. quote: Perhaps I'm unusual but she doesn't appear overweight much less extremely overweight to me, she has wide hips sure but I don't see her as heavy looking. I think in the US and UK, she would be consider normal weight. And clearly by all the attention she's getting, her figure is attractive to people there. In my country, definitely way over. As most women are way smaller than that, so her size is not the norm. She really wouldn't get any attention walking around here, unless she wears micro mini and flash more cleavage, then maybe there will be glances, but still no cat calls.

Greta75 -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 8:36:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littleladybug You can speak for all men in Singapore? And the gal in NYC is hardly "extremely overweight".... I think she would be overweight in official BMI And body fat analysis, in official overweight stats. But of course whether people thinks she's overweight or not, depends on people's perception of what's normal weight. I'm pretty confident most chinese men will not find that size attractive, although, Indian and Malay men do like BBWs, so she might get attention from those races. Chinese men call Beyonce and JLo BBWs over here, so that's just their scale. It differs from western men.

freedomdwarf1 -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 8:37:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: camille65 People can be lean and still unhealthy. But body fat analysis will detect unhealthiness in a skinny fat person as well. That's why it's the most accurate. quote: Perhaps I'm unusual but she doesn't appear overweight much less extremely overweight to me, she has wide hips sure but I don't see her as heavy looking. I think in the US and UK, she would be consider normal weight. In my country, definitely way over. As most women are way smaller than that, so her size is not the norm. Yes, she is 'the norm' for a fit and healthy person. No way is she overweight at all. In your country, what you call the norm would be very much underweight and many are bordering on dangerously low. And whatever system you use to measure body fat, most have fundamental flaws in how it is measured because none of them take into account the difference between muscle and different types of fat. And she is waaay too skinny (yes, SKINNY!!) to be considered a BBW.

Greta75 -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 8:39:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 And whatever system you use to measure body fat, most have fundamental flaws in how it is measured because none of them take into account the difference between muscle and different types of fat. Body fat analysis will always count the percentage of muscles versus fat in your body, that's why it can detect overweight in skinny looking people too. IF they are all bones and fats and no muscles. She didn't look tone to me. Definitely not high muscle mass.

littleladybug -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 8:41:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 I'm pretty confident most chinese men will not find that size attractive, although, Indian and Malay men do like BBWs, so she might get attention from those races. Chinese men call Beyonce and JLo BBWs over here, so that's just their scale. It differs from western men. Apparently it IS all about perception. Certainly not any sort of "scientific scale" though.

Greta75 -> RE: 10 hours of walking in NYC as a woman (11/6/2014 8:42:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 In your country, what you call the norm would be very much underweight and many are bordering on dangerously low. Yea, the normal medium weight of women here are 100 to 110lbs, so that's the normal standard.

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