quote:

You don't grasp the most basic logic

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

You don't grasp the most basic logic

Bama you are correct …BUT…I would much rather see blacks mostly vote for blacks rather than not have them vote at all. It may be racist but it will be a start or at least a next step towards becoming directly involved in their government. That way they will own a part of America and be responsible for it.

This would make them proactive in government rather than a victim of it as they often perceive themselves to be. Then as time goes by and they realize they can influence their futures at the ballot box they will start listening to the message and ignore the skin color.

If given the choice between a political message from a person you feel you cannot trust and someone your same color and hopefully experience most will choose color. It may be racist but it is an understandable choice given our history and a choice many minorities have made over the years.

We all know the answer is in the vote and I think harsh words are needed to get blacks to see their mistakes and understand protests and disobedience hurts more than helps their cause.

As an example… the protesters in Ferguson want the County Prosecutor to remove himself from the case of Michael Brown. They believe he cannot be fair. Well… the St Louis county prosecutor Robert Mculloch was last Tuesday reelected unopposed. There was plenty of time between the shooting and the election to have a black or black sympathetic nominee to run against him. That would have settled their demands by the vote. Believe me if this were a Tea Party situation there would have been many qualified men and women running against him. Same with the future of the mayor and council of Ferguson… blacks must become involved in the political process. That is the only way they can change their future… not throwing rocks, blocking traffic, and destroying their economy.

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Same with the future of the mayor and council of Ferguson… blacks must become involved in the political process. That is the only way they can change their future… not throwing rocks, blocking traffic, and destroying their economy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Same with the future of the mayor and council of Ferguson… blacks must become involved in the political process. That is the only way they can change their future… not throwing rocks, blocking traffic, and destroying their economy.

Two points:

As a privileged white guy who really has not and can not walk a mile in the other guy's shoes, I'm a bit leery of prescribing strategies to a group that's been heavily persecuted for the last 200 years-ish in this country. In any realistic sense slavery still exists in the USA. At least right now that burden is falling largely on blacks although the new group is the poor. When a government is actively murdering and enslaving your own interest group that's simply got to color your thinking a bit and I'm not real sure I can empathize across that big of a gulf.

That disclaimer being said, I think your point applies to anyone. The purpose of a protest is not to make change. Rather, a protest raises awareness and then if enough awareness and interest is raised change happens, exactly as you say, via the political process. And the normal complaint doesn't apply in your specific example of Ferguson. Sure, it's easy to understand why blacks aren't really motivated to vote in federal elections... there is no party standing for them. But at the local level you don't need "party machinery". There's no reason other than lack of trust and comfort in the political process that the blacks in Ferguson couldn't try to make some effective local changes happen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Same with the future of the mayor and council of Ferguson… blacks must become involved in the political process. That is the only way they can change their future… not throwing rocks, blocking traffic, and destroying their economy.

Two points:

As a privileged white guy who really has not and can not walk a mile in the other guy's shoes, I'm a bit leery of prescribing strategies to a group that's been heavily persecuted for the last 200 years-ish in this country. In any realistic sense slavery still exists in the USA. At least right now that burden is falling largely on blacks although the new group is the poor. When a government is actively murdering and enslaving your own interest group that's simply got to color your thinking a bit and I'm not real sure I can empathize across that big of a gulf.

That disclaimer being said, I think your point applies to anyone. The purpose of a protest is not to make change. Rather, a protest raises awareness and then if enough awareness and interest is raised change happens, exactly as you say, via the political process. And the normal complaint doesn't apply in your specific example of Ferguson. Sure, it's easy to understand why blacks aren't really motivated to vote in federal elections... there is no party standing for them. But at the local level you don't need "party machinery". There's no reason other than lack of trust and comfort in the political process that the blacks in Ferguson couldn't try to make some effective local changes happen.

quote:

As a privileged white guy who really has not and can not walk a mile in the other guy's shoes

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

Its also made harder for them to vote if they live in states that require certain ID that some of them don't have & have trouble & cost getting..

and too,.. black politicians can be just as corrupt/inept as the sleazy white politicians too..

quote:

Its also made harder for them to vote if they live in states that require certain ID that some of them don't have & have trouble & cost getting

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Same with the future of the mayor and council of Ferguson… blacks must become involved in the political process. That is the only way they can change their future… not throwing rocks, blocking traffic, and destroying their economy.

Two points:

As a privileged white guy who really has not and can not walk a mile in the other guy's shoes, I'm a bit leery of prescribing strategies to a group that's been heavily persecuted for the last 200 years-ish in this country. In any realistic sense slavery still exists in the USA. At least right now that burden is falling largely on blacks although the new group is the poor. When a government is actively murdering and enslaving your own interest group that's simply got to color your thinking a bit and I'm not real sure I can empathize across that big of a gulf.

That disclaimer being said, I think your point applies to anyone. The purpose of a protest is not to make change. Rather, a protest raises awareness and then if enough awareness and interest is raised change happens, exactly as you say, via the political process. And the normal complaint doesn't apply in your specific example of Ferguson. Sure, it's easy to understand why blacks aren't really motivated to vote in federal elections... there is no party standing for them. But at the local level you don't need "party machinery". There's no reason other than lack of trust and comfort in the political process that the blacks in Ferguson couldn't try to make some effective local changes happen.

Its also made harder for them to vote if they live in states that require certain ID that some of them don't have & have trouble & cost getting..

and too,.. black politicians can be just as corrupt/inept as the sleazy white politicians too..

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Same with the future of the mayor and council of Ferguson… blacks must become involved in the political process. That is the only way they can change their future… not throwing rocks, blocking traffic, and destroying their economy.

Two points:

As a privileged white guy who really has not and can not walk a mile in the other guy's shoes, I'm a bit leery of prescribing strategies to a group that's been heavily persecuted for the last 200 years-ish in this country. In any realistic sense slavery still exists in the USA. At least right now that burden is falling largely on blacks although the new group is the poor. When a government is actively murdering and enslaving your own interest group that's simply got to color your thinking a bit and I'm not real sure I can empathize across that big of a gulf.

That disclaimer being said, I think your point applies to anyone. The purpose of a protest is not to make change. Rather, a protest raises awareness and then if enough awareness and interest is raised change happens, exactly as you say, via the political process. And the normal complaint doesn't apply in your specific example of Ferguson. Sure, it's easy to understand why blacks aren't really motivated to vote in federal elections... there is no party standing for them. But at the local level you don't need "party machinery". There's no reason other than lack of trust and comfort in the political process that the blacks in Ferguson couldn't try to make some effective local changes happen.

Its also made harder for them to vote if they live in states that require certain ID that some of them don't have & have trouble & cost getting..

and too,.. black politicians can be just as corrupt/inept as the sleazy white politicians too..

The difficulty of getting an ID is a myth, I make less than 30k and had no difficulty.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

Its also made harder for them to vote if they live in states that require certain ID that some of them don't have & have trouble & cost getting..

and too,.. black politicians can be just as corrupt/inept as the sleazy white politicians too..

A person needs an ID in modern society just to function

Period

The need to ensure that elections arent stolen far outweighs the possibility that someone cant vote because they lost their ID

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Same with the future of the mayor and council of Ferguson… blacks must become involved in the political process. That is the only way they can change their future… not throwing rocks, blocking traffic, and destroying their economy.

Two points:

As a privileged white guy who really has not and can not walk a mile in the other guy's shoes, I'm a bit leery of prescribing strategies to a group that's been heavily persecuted for the last 200 years-ish in this country. In any realistic sense slavery still exists in the USA. At least right now that burden is falling largely on blacks although the new group is the poor. When a government is actively murdering and enslaving your own interest group that's simply got to color your thinking a bit and I'm not real sure I can empathize across that big of a gulf.

That disclaimer being said, I think your point applies to anyone. The purpose of a protest is not to make change. Rather, a protest raises awareness and then if enough awareness and interest is raised change happens, exactly as you say, via the political process. And the normal complaint doesn't apply in your specific example of Ferguson. Sure, it's easy to understand why blacks aren't really motivated to vote in federal elections... there is no party standing for them. But at the local level you don't need "party machinery". There's no reason other than lack of trust and comfort in the political process that the blacks in Ferguson couldn't try to make some effective local changes happen.

Its also made harder for them to vote if they live in states that require certain ID that some of them don't have & have trouble & cost getting..

and too,.. black politicians can be just as corrupt/inept as the sleazy white politicians too..

The difficulty of getting an ID is a myth, I make less than 30k and had no difficulty.

600,000 in Texas cant vote cuz they dont have the right ID (even if they have voted before) so its not a f'n myth, dude..

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/oct/27/texas-vote-id-proof-certificate-minority-law

and I have run into this kinda bs crap before cuz the library here wont give me a library card cuz I dont have the right ID to get one...

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Same with the future of the mayor and council of Ferguson… blacks must become involved in the political process. That is the only way they can change their future… not throwing rocks, blocking traffic, and destroying their economy.

Two points:

As a privileged white guy who really has not and can not walk a mile in the other guy's shoes, I'm a bit leery of prescribing strategies to a group that's been heavily persecuted for the last 200 years-ish in this country. In any realistic sense slavery still exists in the USA. At least right now that burden is falling largely on blacks although the new group is the poor. When a government is actively murdering and enslaving your own interest group that's simply got to color your thinking a bit and I'm not real sure I can empathize across that big of a gulf.

That disclaimer being said, I think your point applies to anyone. The purpose of a protest is not to make change. Rather, a protest raises awareness and then if enough awareness and interest is raised change happens, exactly as you say, via the political process. And the normal complaint doesn't apply in your specific example of Ferguson. Sure, it's easy to understand why blacks aren't really motivated to vote in federal elections... there is no party standing for them. But at the local level you don't need "party machinery". There's no reason other than lack of trust and comfort in the political process that the blacks in Ferguson couldn't try to make some effective local changes happen.

Its also made harder for them to vote if they live in states that require certain ID that some of them don't have & have trouble & cost getting..

and too,.. black politicians can be just as corrupt/inept as the sleazy white politicians too..

The difficulty of getting an ID is a myth, I make less than 30k and had no difficulty.

600,000 in Texas cant vote cuz they dont have the right ID (even if they have voted before) so its not a f'n myth, dude..

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/oct/27/texas-vote-id-proof-certificate-minority-law

and I have run into this kinda bs crap before cuz the library here wont give me a library card cuz I dont have the right ID to get one...

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

and I have run into this kinda bs crap before cuz the library here wont give me a library card cuz I dont have the right ID to get one...


You need an ID to get a library card but you shouldn't need one to vote?
Don't you drive?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

and I have run into this kinda bs crap before cuz the library here wont give me a library card cuz I dont have the right ID to get one...


You need an ID to get a library card but you shouldn't need one to vote?
Don't you drive?

the article is about people that have a legal right to vote, that likely have voted in the past, but new rules now stop them from voting.. and no, I didn't go to the Guardian to get a US news story, I first read about that in the Houston Chronicle but you need to be a subscriber to access their articles online.. so again, its not an f'n myth.. there are lots of other US sources for the same problems with voter ID.. but of course that's not what you want to believe anyway..
http://thinkprogress.org/election/2014/10/27/3584645/texas-voter-id-pollworkers/ Texas Election Judge Had To Turn Away 93-Year-Old Veteran Due To Strict Voter ID Law

I have ID, just not what the library wants.. they would be loaning out books which have a value and cost to them, which is different from voting.. you may place some sort of "value" on voting but I don't (since there is no one worth voting for in the US that hasn't been bought and paid for by big corps and the 1%)...

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

and I have run into this kinda bs crap before cuz the library here wont give me a library card cuz I dont have the right ID to get one...


You need an ID to get a library card but you shouldn't need one to vote?
Don't you drive?

the article is about people that have a legal right to vote, that likely have voted in the past, but new rules now stop them from voting.. and no, I didn't go to the Guardian to get a US news story, I first read about that in the Houston Chronicle but you need to be a subscriber to access their articles online.. so again, its not an f'n myth.. there are lots of other US sources for the same problems with voter ID.. but of course that's not what you want to believe anyway..
http://thinkprogress.org/election/2014/10/27/3584645/texas-voter-id-pollworkers/ Texas Election Judge Had To Turn Away 93-Year-Old Veteran Due To Strict Voter ID Law

I have ID, just not what the library wants.. they would be loaning out books which have a value and cost to them, which is different from voting.. you may place some sort of "value" on voting but I don't (since there is no one worth voting for in the US that hasn't been bought and paid for by big corps and the 1%)...

If there is no value to voting then what difference does it make?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The part that I do not understand is how is he selling his scrap without a valid picture ID? Everywhere I have been requires one. (Destroying medical imaging equipment produces a LOT of scrap metals.)

How did he even get a business license without Id?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

The part that I do not understand is how is he selling his scrap without a valid picture ID? Everywhere I have been requires one. (Destroying medical imaging equipment produces a LOT of scrap metals.)

How did he even get a business license without Id?

maybe he has a company and its incorporation documents.. don't you know that corporations are people too???